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Miscellaneous Forums => General Discussion => Topic started by: The Black-caped Man on 2007-12-31 16:51:31
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Ok: We know that people in Final Fantasy return to the planet, which means they are reborn. We know that Sephiroth prevented Aerith from returning so that she cant use Holy. When Sephiroth died Aerith could completely return to the planet, use Holy and prevent Meteor from destroying the planet.
However, in Advent Children we see the spirits of Zack and Aerith watching over Cloud and his friends and Aerith even uses Great Gospel to heal Cloud from Geostigma!!!! Thats somehow a contradiction: Either they return to the planet or they come to heaven but they cant just say people are reborn and then make Aerith a living ghost in advent children that is never reborn! And why the f*** is Zack there too?!?!?! He died so why is he not reborn? The only person that can prevent people from returning is Sephiroth and why the hell should he prevent Zack? Zacks no danger for him anyway? What did the producers of Advent Children smoke?!?!? :evil: They should have thought before they act
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Read The Maiden Who Travels the Planet, On the Way to a Smile: Case of Tifa, Case of Denzel, and Case of Barret that should do a lot to clear things up for you. If you don't feel like doing that you can read through my following quick explanation.
None of the people in the final fantasy VII world can be reborn, unless of course you have a strong will and had Jenova cells injected into you as an embryo. That means Aerith and Zack won't be returning (at least until the creators think up a new excuse to let them come back, lol). Anyways, in the game just before ::SPOILER:: Sephiroth kills Aerith ::END SPOILER lol::: she had already summoned holy which is why it was glowing a pale green. The reason holy wasn't doing anything, however, was because Sephiroth's will was stopping it, not because he wasn't preventing Aerith from returning.
When you finally defeat Sephiroth at the end of the game, Holy does it's job and protects Gaia but since Sephiroth was holding it back for so long the battle between it and Meteor spilled out onto the rest of the earth and began causing more damage than Meteor would have alone. That's when Aerith, being the sole remaining Cetra, used her knowledge of the lifestream and guided it from all across the globe to assist holy in destroying Meteor (also causing geostigma).
Aerith does indeed use Great Gospel to heal Cloud during the movie, but you must notice it didn't just happen anywhere at anytime. During the game Aerith is only able to to really connect with the planet at places like the opening scene (notice the green coming from the vents) and the City of Ancients; she is only half Ancient. The reason Great gospel worked in her church was because directly under it the lifestream was very close to the surface; once the floor was destroyed Aerith was able to use her lifestream guiding abilities and combine it with water to create the Great Gospel effect. The lifestream being so close to the surface also explains why her church was the only place flowers could grow.
In Advent Children anytime you see Aerith that is simply sort of Cloud's subconscious (it's difficult to put into words as Aerith and Zack aren't just being imagined but neither are they ghosts. They both have retained their consciousness in the lifestream and sort of exist in a different dimension). You can argue that since Aerith is so powerful and has such a strong connection with him that's why she is able to give him that last boost in defeating Bahamut....anyways... Zack is still "alive" because of his will and strong sense of who he is. Being the only "true" SOLDIER 1st Class (he made it there without having Jenova injected at birth) he has an incredibly strong self confidence and knows who he is. This is what allows him to retain his form and personality in the lifestream, along with help from Aerith. [/rant]
If you enjoy FFVII I strongly suggest reading those short novels as they have been pretty well translated and have been written quite well.
If anyone on this board has any questions about the storyline or plot in the FFVII universe, feel free to ask. I think I may know this game better than the creators lol :roll:
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Ok: I know I am right on this, so look: Bugenhagen explains it and in the short sequence you see in his lab there is a man who lives, then dies, his spiritual energy returns to the planet and on the other side of the planet he is reborn. Thats the cycle of nature. And yes I know the thing with Holy shining and that Sephiroth is stopping it but at least in the german version after you beat Hojo Cloud says in the Highwind:
"Aerith.....Sie hat am Ende gelächelt(=She smiled at her end)
Wenn wir nichts tun erstarrt ihr lächeln....(=If we dont do a thing her smile will freeze...)
Sie würde so gern zurückkehren aber irgendwas hält sie auf....(She wants to return but somethings stopping her=>Sephiroth)"
So Sephiroth does prevent Holy from being activated but he ALSO prevents Aerith from returning(Otherwise the translation REALLY sucks cause thats exactly what they say(I played that part today and for the 100th time so I know it^^)). And I know everything about Meteor, Holy, Crisis Core and Advent Children so no need for explanations but thx.
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Yes you're right about the video of the man disappearing and being "reborn". Notice in the video that when the man dies his spirit energy is yellow and when the tree dies it's is red. During their journey in the lifestream both lose all knowledge of their previous selves and become green. Everything that dies in the FF7 world becomes green and when it is time for new life, be it a human, animal, or plant, there is no discerning what used to be a human or plant because it is now all part of the green lifestream. Sort of like stem cells I guess?
Onto the argument, if he prevented her from returning then why didn't she return after Meteor had been stopped? Surely it would have allowed Cloud to be more at peace with himself since he feels he let her die. The answer is simple. She can't. She's dead and will remain so until Squeenix invents some new way for her to come back, probably along with Zack and of course Sephiroth once again.
I think I know what part you are talking about in your quotes.
Tifa says something like > " I don't think she thought she would die."
and then Cloud or Tifa says > "I think she planned to return all along" something along those lines
When Cloud says something is stopping "her" he thinks Aerith's not being allowed to return to the planet only because Holy hasn't been summoned. When in fact Sephiroth is stopping Holy and not Aerith.
What makes FF7 so difficult to follow is sometimes the characters are confused, or don't know what's going on. And that in turn confuses the player. This is one of those cases where Cloud was making an assumption as why Holy wasn't working.
If you do know everything about Crisis Core then I have quite a few questions surrounding Project G mainly concerning Genesis birth, and "the gift of the goddess". I think I need to replay it again because I've forgotten alot already. I'll make a thread on it a little later.
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Yeah thats what I was saying all the time: In another thread I wrote it exactly as you said: People, animals and trees their energy joins the main Life stream. When you die, your Life stream particles join the main stream and the particles are mixed together with others. Since Sephiroths will is too strong for the planet his consciousness can somehow keep the particles together so that he would be reborn just like he was before. However to keep his spiritual energy together he had to split up his consciousness, so that we find it again seperated in the 3 "Advent Children": Kadaj, Yazoo, Loz.
I will gladly answer your questions about Crisis Core btw :-)
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Haha, for a second I thought you were one of those guys who thinks there's some type of Aerith revival code or a super secret fmv that contains her escaping from the northern crater. Lol, all you have to do is beat cheese weapon.
Anyways I'll take you up on the Crisis Core explanation later, but I wanted to tell you I like your explanation of Advent Children in the other post. Did you read that somewhere or is it your interpretation?
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Well, this is an interesting discussion, although in my opinion Advent of Children just messed up the story.
I've read "The maiden who travels the Planet" and it looked quiet reasonable. The lifestream certainly reciclated the energy of all living creatures to create more live, but it was a long term process. People spirtis were slowly destroyed, but not inmediatly. The time needed for this process to complete doesn't seems to be the same for everyone either. Besides Aeris is a Certa, and thus his spirit recives a diferent treatment. In the novel Aeris can travel through the lifestream and finds several old friends, such as Bigs, Jesse and Wedge.
I think the words of Cloud should be interpreted as a simple mistake.
As for Kadaj, Yazoo, Loz, your theory is interesting The Black-caped Man, but I don't think it's right. I think they are more like those poor black caped men controlled by Jenova's cells. In fact, doesn't Spehiroth even kill Kadaj? I don't remember this very well.
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No Sephiroth does not kill Kadaj its like this: Kadaj, Yazoo and Loz want to gather the remnants of Jenova, which I dont know why, Rufus possesses. Since they possess the different parts of Sephiroths consciousness they want to do the reunion with Jenova to become the one and only warrior, Sephiroth. When Kadaj finally receives the parts from Rufus, Cloud had been healed from his Geostigma and chases the three. He beats up Loz and Yazoo but Kadaj can get away. Cloud traces Kadaj, fights and beats him but then Kadaj fuses together with Jenovas remnants and becomes Sephiroth. Although normaly for the reunion all three parts of Sephiroths consciousness are needed, in this case Kadaj alone suffices(since he represents Sephiroths cruelty). Then Sephiroth beats up Cloud but then Cloud can somehow collect energy again and defeat Sephiroth. Sephiroth transforms back into Kadaj and Kadaj dies. Yazoo shoots Cloud and Cloud sinks to the ground but in the little pond in Aeriths church he gets healed again as do the other children(which suffer Geostigma).
BTW: I read somewhere that the move that Cloud uses to defeat Sephiroth is called Omnislash 2. Is this right or just a rumor?
PS: lol. Cheese Weapon :lol:
I hate those rumors, especially because theres no need to create rumors since we know how to hex edit and could create our own cheese weapons^^.
Have you ever heard the rumors about Onyx weapon and the whit chocobo? its my favourite lol
And Borde: Lol. The plural of man is men, not mans 8-)
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The maiden novel was really very helpful to me as far as shedding light on a few of FF7's concepts I didn't understand.
From my understanding of Kadaj, Yazoo, and Loz though they were remnants of Sephiroth they still had personalities. Of course they were searching for Jenova since all 3 were made up of his desire to find it, but they weren't mindless drones like the hooded drones in Nibelheim (sp?).
In the end of Advent Children, Cloud kills Kadaj... indirectly. Since Sephiroth used Kadaj's body as his vessel to return, and Cloud defeated Sephiroth, once Sephiroth disappeared (or whatever it was he did) Kadaj, Yazoo, and Loz had also been defeated since their only reason for existing had been because of Sephiroth's will.
Edit: Guess you beat me to it. Yeah I remember Onyx weapon too but the White Chocobo must be a new one, how exciting lol.
This one almost had me going for a second http://www.ff7citadel.com/secrets/s_images/s_cave2.jpg (http://www.ff7citadel.com/secrets/s_images/s_cave2.jpg) there's a super secret way in the Ancient's capital to climb up the vine and inside Aerith is waiting to rejoin your party :)
Oh and it's omnislash version 5 because it's the 5th version they made and liked it the most. Another fun fact is omnislash in the Japan version is called SUPER ULTIMATE WAR GOD CHAMPION SLASH... i prefer omnislash.
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Couldnt have said it better man :-)
Youre right Kadaj Yazoo and Loz have personalities but they are oppressed by Sephiroths will. Still they are more than the clones Hojo created.
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DOH! Right. If my english teacher saw this...
As for the movie, that's right. This proves I didn't pay much anttention to the film :-P Then again, there is something a bit confusing here. Is Sephiroth's will what Kadaj and Co. are following or is it Jenova's will? I think it's the later. In fact, while playing FF7 I came to think that even Sephiroth himself was no more than a Jenova's puppet too.
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Who is controlling who? Is Sephiroth controlling the Jenova inside him or is Jenova controlling Sephiroth from the inside out?
I have a entirely different perspective which is that Sephiroth is Jenova. :-o lol
Jenova was basically a humanesque virus whose sole purpose was to spread herself across the planet and take over. However, she had no feelings of happiness, sorrow, or guilt, just the instinct to take over. Sephiroth, after learning about his mother being an alien began to act this way as well, but kept his feelings (for example: his arrogance when fighting Cloud, and wanting to know what Cloud treasured most so he could take it from was desire). In a way I think Sephiroth became the next evolutionary step of Jenova... if that makes sense. He wants to destroy life on the planet so he can use it to travel to a new planet and be it's ruler.
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Obesebear your theory is very interesting. However, due to the fact that we dont hear Sephiroth speaking in original VII we cant know if he has feelings.(Or is there some scene where we do?) so you could call that another mistake of Advent :-P
The next evolutionary step of Jenova....well....maybe you could call it that dunno.....
As for him wanting to destroy life on a planet so he can use it to travel to a new planet and be its ruler this only counts for Advent Children as all of us know. In VII, he just wants to absorb the spiritual energy that would be collected as a result of Meteors impact. That way he would be reborn as a god and rule over the dead souls(=The Life Stream).
Have you ever thought how stupid that is? I mean just striving for power without having another plan? What would Sephiroth have done after becoming a god? He would have had everything, which means, no suprises, no opponents, no unforeseen events again. In other words it would be the most boring thing youve ever seen. Since I love Sephiroth and dont wanna think that he just plans useless destruction I began to believe that maybe, after he becomes a god that he wants to create the ideal world for him and Jenova. I dont know what that world would look like but with that believe his plan would make MUCH more sense than otherwise.
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As you can tell during the Nibelheim scenes and certain parts of Crisis Core, Sephiroth has feelings. With his arrogance towards Cloud I was implying that because I don't think Cloud would have a chance in hell if Sephiroth was to truly fight him instead of toying with him.
I like to think of the entire compilation series as a better telling of the story. The example of Sephiroth suddenly wanting to travel to a new planet to "create a shining future" is a perfect. As the writers are making more spin-offs, they delve into the story and add little bits here and there to help it make more sense.
Since you've played Crisis Core, I especially like the addition(s) to the Nibelheim scene and think this game is one of the best I've played. Even to the point I'd declare I like it more than the original game.
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Sure Crisis Core in english could(I didnt say will) be even better than regular seven. I hope that all the voices fit cause I really like the japanese ones, especially the one of Sephiroth. It fits perfectly.
And you are right Cloud would never stand a chance against Sephiroth if he would go serious. In Advent Children, when he stabbed Masamune through Clouds shoulder, he could also have stabbed through his heart or head :evil:
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No Sephiroth does not kill Kadaj its like this: Kadaj, Yazoo and Loz want to gather the remnants of Jenova, which I dont know why, Rufus possesses. Since they possess the different parts of Sephiroths consciousness they want to do the reunion with Jenova to become the one and only warrior, Sephiroth. When Kadaj finally receives the parts from Rufus, Cloud had been healed from his Geostigma and chases the three. He beats up Loz and Yazoo but Kadaj can get away. Cloud traces Kadaj, fights and beats him but then Kadaj fuses together with Jenovas remnants and becomes Sephiroth. Although normaly for the reunion all three parts of Sephiroths consciousness are needed, in this case Kadaj alone suffices(since he represents Sephiroths cruelty). Then Sephiroth beats up Cloud but then Cloud can somehow collect energy again and defeat Sephiroth. Sephiroth transforms back into Kadaj and Kadaj dies. Yazoo shoots Cloud and Cloud sinks to the ground but in the little pond in Aeriths church he gets healed again as do the other children(which suffer Geostigma).
Hmm…I didn't get this impression at all from the movie.
…they want to do the reunion with Jenova to become the one and only warrior, Sephiroth.
Yazoo, Loz and Kadaj never state that they want to become Sephiroth, only that they want to be reunited with JENOVA and spread her virus. In fact, in a conversation between Kadaj and Rufus, Kadaj claims that he dislikes Sephiroth because he believes that JENOVA may love Sephiroth more then him.
Since they possess the different parts of Sephiroths consciousness they want to do the reunion with Jenova to become the one and only warrior, Sephiroth.
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…but then Kadaj fuses together with Jenovas remnants and becomes Sephiroth. Although normaly for the reunion all three parts of Sephiroths consciousness are needed, in this case Kadaj alone suffices(since he represents Sephiroths cruelty).
I got the impression that when Kadaj turns into Sephiroth, it was more of a possession then Kadaj actually turning into Sephiroth. Sephiroth needed a physical vessel so he manipulated the last Remnants of JENOVA so he may get at least one of them to take over their body for a Second Coming.
I don't believe that "hypothesis" that they, Kadaj, Loz and Yazoo, are Sephiroth, split in 3 personalities (as there is no evidence as such and is merely pure speculation). However, there is evidence that they are being controlled or manipulated but either Sephiroth or JENOVA (I'd say the later) just like Cloud was in the original game. That being said, they are most likely survivors of those hooded "Clones" (the clones weren't really Clones but more like test subjects subjected through several Surgeries and injections to try to create another Sephiroth…in a sense but they weren't really clones.) who eventually regained some form of their Identity but were puppets to JENOVA, just like Sephiroth was.
Kadaj, Yazoo and Loz want to gather the remnants of Jenova, which I dont know why, Rufus possesses.
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When Kadaj finally receives the parts from Rufus,…
The "Parts" is actually JENOVA's Head (and juices). And Cloud is healed of his Geostigma in the Church, after he defeats Loz and Yazoo, not before that chase scene.
Oh and Kadaj, Yazoo and Loz ARE the Remnants by the way (though they do believe that anyone with Geostigma are also Remnants so they are looking for the Remnants).
Yazoo shoots Cloud and Cloud sinks to the ground but in the little pond in Aeriths church he gets healed again as do the other children(which suffer Geostigma).
I don't know where you got "and Cloud sinks to the ground" because that never happened.
Who is controlling who? Is Sephiroth controlling the Jenova inside him or is Jenova controlling Sephiroth from the inside out?
I have a entirely different perspective which is that Sephiroth is Jenova. :-o lol
Jenova was basically a humanesque virus whose sole purpose was to spread herself across the planet and take over. However, she had no feelings of happiness, sorrow, or guilt, just the instinct to take over. Sephiroth, after learning about his mother being an alien began to act this way as well, but kept his feelings (for example: his arrogance when fighting Cloud, and wanting to know what Cloud treasured most so he could take it from was desire). In a way I think Sephiroth became the next evolutionary step of Jenova... if that makes sense. He wants to destroy life on the planet so he can use it to travel to a new planet and be it's ruler.
I would say that Sephiroth, at first, was merely brainwashed or possessed by the JENOVA cells within him after realizing the "False Truth" about himself and his mother JENOVA (and I say false truth because of Hojo fabricating the books in there after destroying the originals as he knew that day, this would happen. And to ensure that it did happen, he sabotages the Nibelheim MAKO reactor to produce Monsters…and I know this because Sephiroth came to that conclusion before he lost his mind.)
Before the Nibelheim incident, Sephiroth had a completely different personality. I'd like to imagine as that Incident was taking place, in Sephiroth's mind, he was battling it out with the JENOVA within him or a Dark Doppleganger, representing his future self. As of course, the Original Sephiroth lost and, as I'd like to believe, died, where JENOVA fully took over with Sephiroth's personality somewhat intact when Sephiroth's body lands in the Life-stream.
Now you may ask "why does Sephiroth when he's JENOVA call JENOVA mom". Well, it may have a biblical reason to it. Sephiroth is JENOVA but Sephiroth is the son of JENOVA, much like Jesus is God but Jesus is the son of God.
Sephiroth, before the incident, Even though he believes JENOVA to be his mother, I consider this Sephiroth to be the Son of Hojo and Lucrecia while the Corrupt Sephorth is only the son of JENOVA. I don't consider then as the same person. Only the body and voice is the same. Even the strength differs.
And why JENOVA's Sephiroth want to destroy all life? JENOVA wants revenge!
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In fact Kadaj dislikes Sephiroth but he knows Jenova will never love him more than Sephiroth so I think he knows that by reuniting with Jenovas remnants he will become Sephiroth. However its a question of interpretation, of course its never said.
I dont know which version of the movie you got, but in mine Cloud does sink to the ground after hes shot(well only on his knees). Of course then, he stands up, turns around and finishes Yazoo and Loz. Then has some kind of "dream" with Aerith, who seems to send him back. Then he wakes up in the pond.
And your questions of whos controlling who cannot be answered cause its like I said, interpretation.
We could talk years about that but Im rather tired of it.
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Well, he does bend to one knee when he's shot but doesn't sink into the ground. After he gets up, he charges Loz and Yazoo but is caught in an explosion as Loz and Yazoo overload the Materia in their bodies. I would assume that Cloud is knocked unconscious while Loz and Yazoo die in a Suicide Blast basically. Yes, Cloud has that dream afterwards, during which when he's unconscious and his friends carry him to the "pond" where he awakens, surrounded by the children in the Church.
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I don't believe that "hypothesis" that they, Kadaj, Loz and Yazoo, are Sephiroth, split in 3 personalities (as there is no evidence as such and is merely pure speculation). However, there is evidence that they are being controlled or manipulated but either Sephiroth or JENOVA (I'd say the later) just like Cloud was in the original game. That being said, they are most likely survivors of those hooded "Clones" (the clones weren't really Clones but more like test subjects subjected through several Surgeries and injections to try to create another Sephiroth…in a sense but they weren't really clones.) who eventually regained some form of their Identity but were puppets to JENOVA, just like Sephiroth was.
I'm pretty sure it has been stated that they are are remnants of Sephiroth in one of the Ultimania's, the 10th anniversary one I think. I think them having hair the exact color of Sephiroth's and being the only other left handed people in the FF7 universe aside from Sephiroth says enough. Since they are basically Sephiroths will, they will do as he desires, which is to reunite with Jenova so he can return.
Also Sephiroth's reunion in the original game called all of the hooded people to him at the North Crater in order to kill them, even Cloud who would have been the least weak minded of all of them was drawn to him. They all died.
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Youre right about that. Kadaj, Yazoo and Loz are no Sephiroth Clones made by Hojo, they are Sephiroths reincarnations. All other clones would have died at the reunion Sephiroth made in regular VII and Hojo cant have created other ones, cause he "dies" later in the game by Clouds hand. Well the reason I set the word die under "" is cause Square-enix later decided that he survived, then he reappears in Dirge of Cerberus :evil:
I find it somehow stupid that they just resurrect characters:
Rufus wouldnt have survived Diamond Weapons assault so he should have remained dead.
To let Hojo survive with his shitty back up copy in a network is the biggest shit Square ever made.
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[off topic]
In Dirge the storyline is much easier to stomach if you eliminate everything that has to do with Hojo surviving and simply pretend that Weiss was behind everything and was never controlled by Hojo. [/off topic]
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how right you are :-D
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I have another "contradiction" I've been wondering about.
After reading all of Gast's/Hojo's documents on Jenova in the Shin-Ra Mansion basement, Sephiroth believes Jenova to be an Ancient. Since he also believes Jenova is his mother that would in turn make him an Ancient.
Clearly in the cutscene of him in the basement he read nearly every document in there and with Aerith being Gast's daughter and Hojo having such a profound interest in her, surely there would be a document concerning her being an Ancient as well. That being said, it would make no sense for him to kill her without trying to recruit her for his cause to "take back what is rightfully the Ancient's". Since he proves he is powerful enough to stop Holy after it's been summoned, why the need to kill her?
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No Sephiroth doesnt believe that Jenova is his "real mother", he says it but he knows that the jenova cells were injected in his body. He knows this because in the cellar of the Shinra Mansion Hojo has departed every of his reports about his experiments so he must have read the one about his creation. In fact he thinks he was created by Gast since it was Gasts jenova project. He knows that Aerith has no jenova cells in her so shes not worthy to "lead the planet" with him and mother(OMG no I begin calling her mother too^^)
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I know he doesn't believe he is actually Jenova's son, but since the experiment was done to him by humans he feels betrayed by them and thus turns to "her" as his mother. Aerith not being worthy does make sense, but do you have any kind of info to back that up?
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not really as I dont always try to prove things about sephiroth by facts. Instead I try to understand his person. I always think: If I were Sephiroth what would I think or how would I deal with Cloud&friends? That way I come to most of my conclusions. I know that most people want to see facts and proves but theres some point where we just cant prove things anymore and must rely on our feelings and thoughts.
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I really think that the issue of Sephiroth's origin and feelings becomes a lot more clear if you pay close attention to the subject of the Projects in Crisis Core. In which they said that Angeal and Genesis were created as the first experiment, as well as many others, but were ultimately deemed failures because the resulting body was unable to retain its form and would eventually break down (in such a way that it is clearly different from a normal human having to die and then decompose). And during the course of the game, their bodies do exactly that. But I recall, during the discussion between Angeal and his "father" (However that actually works out, parents in FF7 seem very complicated) a certain piece being mentioned about Sephiroth. That he was the result of a newer project, one to create the perfect soldier or weapon, and to make amends for the weaknesses in the earlier experiments. Sephiroth's creation was, as he put it, "perfect." It's probably a good thing he wasn't present for this discussion as I imagine the trauma would have been even greater.
Sephiroth was a toy, an organic plaything, an experiment, and his life meant practically nothing, yet he had feelings due to the way he was raised and the people he knew. Yes, his malice and barbaric strength, overpowering anyone, is clearly obvious in his spar with Genesis, if you can call it that. How much he knew of his origin is questionable, since he obviously knew there was something specific to him that was abnormal, otherwise he would not have offered to help with Genesis' healing, which was not so much aimed at the cut on his shoulder, but that Sephiroth had overheard something about the "degrading" process of their bodies. The idea that he must be something different must have crossed his mind. The reason for his grouping with Genesis and Angeal had to have crossed his mind, but I imagine he suppressed it, for the same reasons why we suppress the obvious signs that lead us into curiosity.
But furthermore, Genesis and Angeal were still around when Sephiroth went haywire. A lot of people see the Nibelheim incident and seclude it only to meaning Sephiroth, Zack, Cloud, maybe Tifa, and the topic of Jenova and the Ancients, because the Nibelheim incident in FF7 only showed that. Whereas in the real version, not a recollection of Cloud's, was that Sephiroth had Genesis and Angeal on his mind, their betrayal, what Shinra was actually up to, where he fit in, and at the same time, he had the misfortune of being partnered with perhaps the most unlucky of all the final fantasy heroes. If Zack had only managed to say one dumb thing in his life, I think the phrase "Normal members of Soldier? You mean you're somehow different?" had to be the one. At this point he realizes that he is no different from his two counterparts. And not only that, but one memory Cloud never recalls, because he wasn't there, is that Genesis visited Sephiroth RIGHT after his revelation. He blatantly tells him that he should join Genesis and help him find a cure for his degradation. That they are brothers and are struggling together. I'm not quite sure how that was supposed to tempt Sephiroth, because he just says I hope you rot, basically. But surely the information he seeks in the Shinra Mansion goes much further beyond that of just his origin and Jenova and the Ancients. The unfortunate part of both games is that he only reads an excerpt of alllllll the books he intends to study while he's down there. And that excerpt is mostly tailored to the facts of the original game. Whereas I'm sure he read much more than that, such as the origin of his two "friends" and how they were different, the purpose of the experiments in the first place. The conclusion he came to was simply that of all the experiments that were presented, as they were written (which some say are false, although it's possible the books were butchered, or the scientists were just not right before they died), is that he is a product of a so-called Ancient and that somehow this experiment was deemed perfect and they used its results in further development of SOLDIER members.
Whatever it was that made him what he is, he soon realized was not a product of the Ancients, and it also existed in numerous other beings, and him being the first, the perfect result, he was purely of this "Jenova" essence, which had survived for centuries. His will, his being, as it exists in the lifestream after his initial death, is the same as Aerith's. The difference is that, whatever properties this Jenova essence contains, allows him to remanifest himself in numerous different ways. For instance, in the original FF7, the Sephiroth that resurfaces and stalks Cloud and his gang, leading him on, is often referred to as a Jenova manifestation with Sephiroth's appearance. The Jenova monsters are simply not expected to look like him. The Sephiroth forms at the end of the game, are also Jenova manifestations. The Sephiroth event directly after is considered to be the metaphorical deathstrike, erasing Sephiroth's grasp over the lifestream, but in the end, it simply hadn't done so, as Sephiroth seemed to imply in Advent Children. I do not think his final words, "I won't exist as anyone's memory" or however it was stated, were entirely poetic. He has resurfaced through his manipulation of the life stream already plenty of times, and without somehow tampering with the lifestream itself, it will be impossible to stop him from continuing so. So in this sense, I don't see any true contradictions. By the time he kills Aerith, he already knows better than to try and indoctrinate her, she is as much the enemy as the normal humans are, and poses an even greater threat at the moment. Otherwise I don't imagine he would have gone out of his way to assassinate her and no one else.
The things I can't seem to gather any real facts for are where Gast/Hojo fit in, since from CC to the original FF7 (the middle) I don't see any information to piece them into the puzzle, and what exactly Kadaj and the others are... or where they are from. As I watched the movie, I seemed to get the feeling that they were the same as the Sephiroth "Clones" from the original game, they said something about having.. developed, that's what gave me that feeling. And that Kadaj was the most developed of the three, therefor he was somehow closest to Sephiroth, and felt him in his soul or something along those lines. Otherwise I'd say that they're simply weak Jenova recreations that had somehow been left out, or created during a weakened stage of Sephiroth's will, in which pure Jenova cells were required to strengthen it. I'm not sure, that seems pretty foggy to me. This is the reason why I have always considered FF7 to be the best, simply because no matter how many times I play it or watch it, there's always more questions. But for the topic of this thread, guess I should summarize: I don't really see a lot of contradictions between the series. Aside from a few personality differences that can be explained through the presence or lacking of voice actors and maybe some names changing, which I'm hoping is what happened with Gast, since he seemed to disappear.. It's mostly a lack of information in some places that I would like to have. I know this thread is old, but I had been reading over this subject a lot and decided to post my opinions here. My apologies for the rant.
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Gasts contribution to the FFVII storyline is his discovery of Jenova, he began the Jenova Project, and had Aerith as a daughter.
Sephiroths "remnants" were just that. Remnants. Kind of like ghosts. His "personality" was split 3-ways after his defeat in the original game, however, because of his extremely weakened state he needs contact with Jenova in order to be reborn. Kadaj is considered the most powerful of the 3 because he represents Sephiroth's most dominant personality trait.
Gast fits in the storyline because he discovered Jenova and initiated the Jenova project (he is the truly brilliant scientist, not hojo). Not to mention his daughter is Aerith. [side note Gast's name can be spelled out with Genesis Angeal and Sephiroth, but a man beginning with T has yet to be created].
Hojo is important because is son is Sephiroth, and he is the true bad guy throughout the entire FFVII universe always working in the background
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there's also a contradiction between ffvii the original and ffvii crisis core.
when barret tells cloud that he must be familliar with the shinra building,
cloud says 'not really, this is the first time i've ever seen the HQ'
>_>
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The FF7 storyline is the most imaginative and detailed story in my knowledge of the world of fiction. Contradictions are likely to happen. Even the people who created the plot in the first place are bound to forget a few of the things they came up with, and then contradict it with something else they come up with later. Maybe they really should stop with all this FF7 stuff lol!
I've read over this entire topic paying specific attention to Aeris's role in the story after her death. Here's a question: if she cannot actually come back from the dead, how on Earth does she speak to Kadaj from the sky in Advent Children? Isn't the Lifestream beneath the ground, not above it?
By the way, I believe Rufus got his hands on Jenova's remains in Advent Children because the Turks got them for him. At the beginning of the film, they went to the Northern Crater, where Reno actually says "Just get the d*** thing" (referring to Jenova, it seems). You hear Kadaj and crew ambush them (Yazoo's gun is the most striking sound effect), but the helicopter gets away. After that, Kadaj spends a lot of the movie interrogating Rufus about it, so obviously, Reno and Rude managed to get what remained of Jenova from the North Crater and return it to Rufus. It makes sense that they would find Jenova's body parts there, since that's where the final bosses were fought in the original FF7 game, and they were all Jenova (despite having Sephiroth's physical features).
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I think those scenes, such as when she lends a hand to Cloud in his fight against Bahamut-Shin (or whoever). Since she is basically one with the lifestream and everything thing is made of lifestream on the planet, she is technically everywhere.
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Sadly we have now got to the simple truth that enix have milked VII for all it is worth.
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Sadly we have now got to the simple truth that enix have milked VII for all it is worth.
We had the truth before CC came out.. The Story after FF7 was finished, but they created AC and the games after the movie. :/