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Off-topic forums => Completely Unrelated => Topic started by: Kudistos Megistos on 2010-04-03 03:18:33

Title: You know what else grinds my gears?
Post by: Kudistos Megistos on 2010-04-03 03:18:33: When fanboys argue over which game's hero/villain would win in a fight in debates over which is the best character or, worse still, which is the best game.

Arguing over who would win in a fight between characters from different games isn't inherently stupid (although the arguments are often made in a profoundly retarded way, not taking into account that there are different rules in different fictional universes and the source of one character's power might not exist in the universe of a different game). However, that is not what angers me. What angers me is "would win in a fight" being taken to mean "better hero/villain". I see this a lot in FF6 vs FF7 debates, but it happens with other games too.

Do these people have any idea how stupid this is? Judging a hero villain by his strength or the destruction he causes? That's what a five-year-old would do. Anyone can think of a character who is ridiculously powerful; it doesn't take much creativity or imagination to do that. What is more important is how the story is told and how the hero or villain is characterised. The game's creators' ability to tell stories and create drama is what makes a character good.

To give an example, according to the logic that fanboys use in these arguments, The Matrix is better than the Iliad. After all, Neo is stronger than Achilles and Agent Smith is stronger than Hector, therefore Neo is a better hero than Achilles and Agent Smith is a better villain than Hector. Fuck all this faggot shit about Homer being better at creating characters and telling a better story, what matters is who would win in a fight! :D

It's not just the Iliad that is inferior either; Hamlet is even worse. Think about how easily Neo could kill Prince Hamlet and how easily Agent Smith could kill King Claudius. It's obvious who's the better dramatist; Shakespeare's characters are crap compared to those of the great Wachowski brothers. They can't even destroy the planet Earth! ;D

BTW, I've been doing some research on who is the strongest character in any video game ever made, and have come to a conclusion about what is the best game evar!

Scroll down to see ;D

(http://img32.imageshack.us/img32/192/superman64.jpg)

That's right kids! Think about all of the powers that Superman has. It's clear that this makes him the best character ever and makes Superman 64 the best game ever! ;)
Title: Re: You know what else grinds my gears?
Post by: sl1982 on 2010-04-03 03:38:49: Trollbait
Title: Re: You know what else grinds my gears?
Post by: Kudistos Megistos on 2010-04-03 03:40:59: Quote from: sl1982 on 2010-04-03 03:38:49
Trollbait

Me? Baiting trolls? I would never do a thing like that ;D

Well, it's just something that annoys me about fanboy arguments; it certainly wasn't intended as trollbait :P
Title: Re: You know what else grinds my gears?
Post by: The Seer of Shadows on 2010-04-03 03:57:06: I suppose the logic behind "Kefka could kill Sephiroth, therefore Kefka is better" (as often encountered in FF6 vs. FF7 debates) is that what makes those two really stand out as characters to them is the destruction they cause. Many people see a character's awesome power and that character immediately becomes their favorite (because supernatural powers and world destruction equals total awesomeness). Maybe I'm misjudging these people, but that sort of thing is something I can sort of relate to.

I don't care so much about the FF6/FF7 arguments. I guess I must've warmed up to Kefka. I still think that FF7 is the superior game with the superior antagonist, but I won't ridicule FF6 fans unless they say something utterly invalid (such as Kefka did everything without any help while Sephiroth had everyone serving him - that isn't even remotely true).

One particular fanboy argument that simply drives me insane is people pitching Sephiroth against Ganondorf. Sure, I'm bound to be biased for the former, but as a character (and as a clichÃ©), the "Great King of Evil" is miles wide of the realm of awesomeness (or whatever you want to call it).

And besides, I mean... just look at him!
(http://gamersdigart.files.wordpress.com/2008/09/ganondorf_2.jpg)

(lol is this trollbaiting enough for you? I can delete this post if I'm asked to.)
Title: Re: You know what else grinds my gears?
Post by: obesebear on 2010-04-03 04:03:43: Ganon can only be defeated by the Master Sword. The Master Sword can only be wielded by a Hyrulian or Hyrulian descendant of specific blood.

/debate

Also, I never got past the tutorial level in Superman
Title: Re: You know what else grinds my gears?
Post by: The Seer of Shadows on 2010-04-03 04:18:51: Oh right. Certain weapons being specific to certain characters. Stupid destiny >:(
Title: Re: You know what else grinds my gears?
Post by: Covarr on 2010-04-03 05:30:45: Clearly, the best characters are the sneakiest characters. Batman, Solid Snake, etc.
Title: Re: You know what else grinds my gears?
Post by: Kudistos Megistos on 2010-04-03 05:35:04: Quote from: Covarr on 2010-04-03 05:30:45
Clearly, the best characters are the sneakiest characters. Batman, Solid Snake, etc.

There may actually be some truth to that ;D

Batman also allows one to give an example of why "would win in a fight = better" is wrong; Batman is a much better hero than Superman, n'est-ce pas? I think he's far more popular. But Superman is more powerful. Does that mean Superman is the better hero? Hell no! ;D

There may be another simple way to determine which characters, and therefore which games, are best: look at how much they smoke (http://forums.qhimm.com/index.php?topic=8008) :P
Title: Re: You know what else grinds my gears?
Post by: Timu Sumisu on 2010-04-03 06:15:14: I dunno kudi... the whole my hero is stronger than your villain has a lot of money behind it... i mean seriously.....

(http://finalfantasy.cc/ffmembers/dissidia_logo_white.jpg)
Title: Re: You know what else grinds my gears?
Post by: guitar_dudester91 on 2010-04-03 07:06:12: See now I would argue that the story behind FF7 is much greater than that of 6. Aeris alone makes anybody who has there heart in the game wanna cry. I look at the relationships between characters, not how strong they are. I suppose you could argue that I am biased based on my experience of the game, but still, i think the story is greater than anything, as previously stated.
Title: Re: You know what else grinds my gears?
Post by: titeguy3 on 2010-04-03 15:19:48: Quote from: obesebear on 2010-04-03 04:03:43
Ganon can only be defeated by the Master Sword. The Master Sword can only be wielded by a Hyrulian or Hyrulian descendant of specific blood.

/debate

Also, I never got past the tutorial level in Superman
There is no tutorial level. (http://www.cinemassacre.com/new/?p=4066) That's what the whole game is like.
Title: Re: You know what else grinds my gears?
Post by: idl12 on 2010-04-03 21:16:06: Just though I'd share my favorite argument .."drumroll"

(http://img406.imageshack.us/img406/605/supermanvsgokubyxikinig.jpg) (http://img406.imageshack.us/i/supermanvsgokubyxikinig.jpg/)

;)
Title: Re: You know what else grinds my gears?
Post by: titeguy3 on 2010-04-03 21:36:30: Goku has no kryptonite.
Title: Re: You know what else grinds my gears?
Post by: Covarr on 2010-04-03 21:42:50: Quote from: titeguy3 on 2010-04-03 21:36:30
Goku has no kryptonite.
Yes he does. It's called naivetÃ©.
Title: Re: You know what else grinds my gears?
Post by: idl12 on 2010-04-03 22:04:00: It's not naivety, it's called honor ;D
Title: Re: You know what else grinds my gears?
Post by: nfitc1 on 2010-04-03 23:12:41: Quote from: idl12 on 2010-04-03 21:16:06
Just though I'd share my favorite argument .."drumroll"

(http://img406.imageshack.us/img406/605/supermanvsgokubyxikinig.jpg) (http://img406.imageshack.us/i/supermanvsgokubyxikinig.jpg/)

;)

There's plenty of empirical evidence to prove that Superman is about 50 times more powerful than Goku.
Title: Re: You know what else grinds my gears?
Post by: titeguy3 on 2010-04-03 23:18:36: Quote from: NFITC1 on 2010-04-03 23:12:41
There's plenty of empirical evidence to prove that Superman is about 50 times more powerful than Goku.

Oh yeah? Well what's the scanner say about his power level?
Title: Re: You know what else grinds my gears?
Post by: idl12 on 2010-04-03 23:29:23: Goku was able able to take down an entire army when he was 14, what was superman doing then?
Title: Re: You know what else grinds my gears?
Post by: obesebear on 2010-04-04 01:39:29: Quote from: idl12 on 2010-04-03 23:29:23
Goku was able able to take down an entire army when he was 14, what was superman doing then?
Superman was busy only being weak to kryptonite, everything else is a cakewalk. No kryptonite = you lose. Same with Ganon.. no master sword = you lose.
Title: Re: You know what else grinds my gears?
Post by: nfitc1 on 2010-04-04 03:00:24: Quote from: idl12 on 2010-04-03 23:29:23
Goku was able able to take down an entire army when he was 14, what was superman doing then?

This is exactly why this topic was created, you know. I'm not going to get into a debate on HOW superman is better than Goku in a topic that is made EXPRESSLY to say it's irritating.

BECAUSE IT IS!!!

Quote from: obesebear on 2010-04-04 01:39:29
Superman was busy only being weak to kryptonite, everything else is a cakewalk. No kryptonite = you lose. Same with Ganon.. no master sword = you lose.

Same thing here. Don't feed the fanboys.

Besides, everyone knows that Apocalypse is the most powerful being in any universe. The only way he'd die is if he willed his body to stop regenerating. :P
Title: Re: You know what else grinds my gears?
Post by: idl12 on 2010-04-04 03:17:50: LIES!!! shenron is the most powerful being in the universe !!! :P
Title: Re: You know what else grinds my gears?
Post by: obesebear on 2010-04-04 04:08:57: Quote from: NFITC1 on 2010-04-04 03:00:24
Besides, everyone knows that Apocalypse is the most powerful being in any universe. The only way he'd die is if he willed his body to stop regenerating. :P
Ok how about this one...

Apocalypse or Dr. Manhattan
Title: Re: You know what else grinds my gears?
Post by: sl1982 on 2010-04-04 04:39:56: Quote from: obesebear on 2010-04-04 01:39:29
Quote from: idl12 on 2010-04-03 23:29:23
Goku was able able to take down an entire army when he was 14, what was superman doing then?
Superman was busy only being weak to kryptonite, everything else is a cakewalk. No kryptonite = you lose. Same with Ganon.. no master sword = you lose.

Not entirely factual. I seem to remember doomsday gave him a good old fashioned ass beating. Enough that supes died. Doomstay did too but that is irrelevant.
Title: Re: You know what else grinds my gears?
Post by: obesebear on 2010-04-04 05:24:47: Quote from: sl1982 on 2010-04-04 04:39:56
Not entirely factual. I seem to remember doomsday gave him a good old fashioned ass beating. Enough that supes died. Doomstay did too but that is irrelevant.
Actually, I forgot that without a yellow sun he is basically powerless. So unless Goku comes here he'd lose. Also, wasn't Doomsday infused with kryptonite or something like that? Idk I never really followed the series :/
Title: Re: You know what else grinds my gears?
Post by: The Seer of Shadows on 2010-04-04 07:17:01: If all those characters were thrown into the movie "X Men: The Last Stand", Jean Grey would destroy them all.
Title: Re: You know what else grinds my gears?
Post by: nfitc1 on 2010-04-04 12:59:18: Quote from: Kudistos Megistos on 2010-04-03 03:18:33
When fanboys argue over which game's hero/villain would win in a fight in debates over which is the best character or, worse still, which is the best game.

You see what you've done? *sigh*
Title: Re: You know what else grinds my gears?
Post by: idl12 on 2010-04-04 14:00:48: This is what would probably happen if this continues....

(http://img340.imageshack.us/img340/9317/dbz271spiritbombtriumph.jpg) (http://img340.imageshack.us/i/dbz271spiritbombtriumph.jpg/)
Title: Re: You know what else grinds my gears?
Post by: ultima espio on 2010-04-04 15:53:00: Nononono.

(http://i85.photobucket.com/albums/k61/ultima_espio/Myotismon_b.jpg)

My homie Myotismon will crush them all ;D
Title: Re: You know what else grinds my gears?
Post by: sl1982 on 2010-04-04 16:07:53: Quote from: obesebear on 2010-04-04 05:24:47
Quote from: sl1982 on 2010-04-04 04:39:56
Not entirely factual. I seem to remember doomsday gave him a good old fashioned ass beating. Enough that supes died. Doomstay did too but that is irrelevant.
Actually, I forgot that without a yellow sun he is basically powerless. So unless Goku comes here he'd lose. Also, wasn't Doomsday infused with kryptonite or something like that? Idk I never really followed the series :/

Nope, he was infused with pure awesomesauce.
Title: Re: You know what else grinds my gears?
Post by: Kudistos Megistos on 2010-04-04 16:10:11: Quote from: NFITC1 on 2010-04-04 12:59:18
Quote from: Kudistos Megistos on 2010-04-03 03:18:33
When fanboys argue over which game's hero/villain would win in a fight in debates over which is the best character or, worse still, which is the best game.

You see what you've done? *sigh*

Now I know how J. Robert Oppenheimer felt :cry:
Title: Re: You know what else grinds my gears?
Post by: drfeelgud88 on 2010-04-04 23:04:53: No one can compare to the almighty Chuck Norris! (even though he is an actual person, sorry) ;D
Title: Re: You know what else grinds my gears?
Post by: Bosola on 2010-04-04 23:29:46: Quote
Apocalypse
Superman
Chuck Norris
Sephiroth
Dr Manhattan

What interests me about all these is the myriad of ways you misspelt the name of the only superhero you could possibly be referring to: BURNT FACE MAN

(http://i16.tinypic.com/2uf4so3.jpg)

Above: BFM being called 'gay' by his arch-nemesis, 'Bastard Man'.
Title: Re: You know what else grinds my gears?
Post by: guitar_dudester91 on 2010-04-05 05:09:21: I'd have to go with Duffman. Nothing like kicking ass being drunk. :lol:

Also, I would like to put up another debate - I think Kurt Russell's badassness definitely beats Chuck Norris. YA. I SAID IT.

EDIT: Russell.
Title: Re: You know what else grinds my gears?
Post by: sl1982 on 2010-04-05 05:24:10: Quote from: guitar_dudester91 on 2010-04-05 05:09:21
I'd have to go with Duffman. Nothing like kicking ass being drunk. :lol:

Also, I would like to put up another debate - I think Kurt Russell's badassness definitely beats Chuck Norris. YA. I SAID IT.

EDIT: Russell.

When is the last time you heard a joke about how tough kurt russel is.

Point Match.
Title: Re: You know what else grinds my gears?
Post by: guitar_dudester91 on 2010-04-05 06:09:42: Well see I think watching a Norris movie and then watching a Russell movie, Russell kicks more ass. He's got the whole personality thing too. Big Trouble in lLittle China, versus what? Walker Texas Ranger. Hahaha I guess that's just my opinion, nobody gets out anymore. Everybody talks about Norris, but how many have actually seen his movies?

P.S> Damn you Kudistos!!! Ha starting all these damn debates!
Title: Re: You know what else grinds my gears?
Post by: sl1982 on 2010-04-05 06:38:33: I think the point we are both missing is neither one of these guys is relevant anymore. When was the last time either one was in a movie?
Title: Re: You know what else grinds my gears?
Post by: guitar_dudester91 on 2010-04-05 06:43:46: Yes that's true ha. But its hard to find someone nowadays that ranks the same as those two did when they were stars. Damn kids and all their angst.
Title: Re: You know what else grinds my gears?
Post by: sl1982 on 2010-04-05 06:48:29: Come on, what are you talking about? Did you forget about ummm..... hmmm.... Matt Damon? Yeah i dunno. All i have to say is Van Damme splits are horribly wrong.
Title: Re: You know what else grinds my gears?
Post by: Kudistos Megistos on 2010-04-05 06:52:36: Quote from: guitar_dudester91 on 2010-04-05 06:43:46
Yes that's true ha. But its hard to find someone nowadays that ranks the same as those two did when they were stars. Damn kids and all their angst.

Yeah, modern films are made for emos ;D

(http://img203.imageshack.us/img203/3519/fatgothkid.jpg)
Title: Re: You know what else grinds my gears?
Post by: Opine on 2010-04-05 14:43:23: But... that's the whole premise of Dead Fantasy. :oops:
And I like Capcom v. Marvel.

While I'm not interested in arguing about Mike Ditka v. Hurricane Ditka, I find these ideas entertaining when they're games (or, well DF movies).
Title: Re: You know what else grinds my gears?
Post by: titeguy3 on 2010-04-05 14:56:12: Quote from: Opine on 2010-04-05 14:43:23
But... that's the whole premise of Dead Fantasy. :oops:
And I like Campcom v. Marvel.

While I'm not interested in arguing about Mike Ditka v. Hurricane Ditka, I find these ideas entertaining when they're games (or, well DF movies).
Those are fun, I've always wanted to see a Capcom vs. Shonen Jump (Viz). That'd make an awesome game.
Title: Re: You know what else grinds my gears?
Post by: ScottMcTony on 2010-04-18 02:04:28: Hey Kudistos, while it is pretty stupid saying "my character would beat your character in a fight, mine's better"(I'm pretty sure that's some form of ad hominem), and I agree that simply how powerful or impressive they are has little to nothing to do with how interesting they are on its own, when analyzing characters like Kefka and Sephiroth, using power as a point of quality comparison isn't totally meaningless, if you do it right. The thing is, creating a narrative context where a character achieving a certain degree of power is believable, while still being exceptional in the universe in which it's set, does require some skill, and does help add to audience fascination. And if surprise at such power can be created, without hurting belief, it can sometimes reach something close to awe.

See in this sense, though, I think that Sephiroth wins. While Kefka at his most powerful probably would beat Safer in a fight, I was far less surprised when he became so powerful. Sephiroth, on the other hand, combined impressiveness, belief, and surprise, all so strongly that I feel his transformation is the only instance in gaming or any medium where I can comfortably omit "something close to" from my last paragraphs final statement.

Of course, disregarding surprise or belief, clearly God is the best character ever. Fucker drowned the whole planet and somehow fit 2 members of ~14 million species on a mid-sized boat just by deciding to. Can't beat that.
Title: Re: You know what else grinds my gears?
Post by: Nightmarish on 2010-04-19 10:37:20: Peter Petrelli or Sylar are obviously stronger than Superman.
I guess it's a question of time they make a videogame from Heroes. :-D
Title: Re: You know what else grinds my gears?
Post by: headlessgargoyle on 2010-04-28 22:00:12: Quote from: ScottMcTony on 2010-04-18 02:04:28
Of course, disregarding surprise or belief, clearly God is the best character ever. f***er drowned the whole planet and somehow fit 2 members of ~14 million species on a mid-sized boat just by deciding to. Can't beat that.
(http://www.lycaeum.org/mv/camp/GodComics2.jpg)

"hitler crucified my son!!"
jesus: "I'm saved!!"
Title: Re: You know what else grinds my gears?
Post by: Cupcake on 2010-04-29 07:33:53: Quote from: Nightmarish on 2010-04-19 10:37:20
Peter Petrelli or Sylar are obviously stronger than Superman.
I guess it's a question of time they make a videogame from Heroes. :-D

I want one where I can play as Sylar >=)

Also: I am confident there will be a 5th season, considering I got an e-mail from Hiro after season 4 ended. Unfortunately, Sendhil Ramamurthy, who plays Mohinder has confirmed that he would not come back (which sucks because I, unlike many people, love the character of Mohinder Suresh... I just love all the characters on that show so much)
Title: Re: You know what else grinds my gears?
Post by: Prince Lex on 2010-04-29 23:31:11: I loved heroes when it started but feel hat it's went way way downhill. They've changed the rules too many times and there's no really solid overall storyline. I got halfway through the first season 4 2-parter and gave up. I haven't watched an episode since. The writing just feels really messy now. It could have been so much better :(
Title: Re: You know what else grinds my gears?
Post by: Furzball on 2010-04-30 00:09:02: Funnily enough I had a Sephiroth versus me. Sephy lost :P
Title: Re: You know what else grinds my gears?
Post by: Cupcake on 2010-04-30 22:39:43: Quote from: Prince Lex on 2010-04-29 23:31:11
I loved heroes when it started but feel hat it's went way way downhill. They've changed the rules too many times and there's no really solid overall storyline. I got halfway through the first season 4 2-parter and gave up. I haven't watched an episode since. The writing just feels really messy now. It could have been so much better :(

Here's how I rate it

Season 1: F'ING AMAZING
Season 2: good.. then writer's strike
Season 3: Cleanup, so it kinda sucked
Season 4: 90% of the way back to form
Title: Re: You know what else grinds my gears?
Post by: Prince Lex on 2010-05-01 00:49:48: *Sigh* I suppose I'm going to have to watch it now then :P

I had planned to watch it when the season was over, but I might as well catch up now, before the finale. I think if I had watched it week to week I would have sworn off it forever.
Title: Re: You know what else grinds my gears?
Post by: Covarr on 2010-05-01 02:24:59: Season 3 wasn't cleanup. Season 3 was completely awful. Characters made meaningless, out-of-character decisions, the villains didn't have any motives to speak of (but were treated like they did), all around the season was terrible.

I loved season 4 though. The first half was mostly just fixing the characters after season 3 broke them, but by halfway through it was pretty darn good, and it ended with one helluva season finale.

I genuinely hope the show gets renewed for a fifth season (fairly certain it will). Also, I'm glad that Sendhil Ramamurthy (Mohinder) has left the show for good. He was the worst character.
Title: Re: You know what else grinds my gears?
Post by: Furzball on 2010-05-01 03:15:22: I think he was good as the mad scientist character. Now they need someone else to fill that department.
Title: Re: You know what else grinds my gears?
Post by: Kudistos Megistos on 2010-07-24 16:46:09: I AM NECROPOSTING BECAUSE I HAVE A VITALLY IMPORTANT UPDATE TO THIS THREAD AND NECROPOSTING RULES ARE DIFFERENT IN COMPLETELY UNRELATED!

I have been vindicated in my claim that you can't compare fictional characters from fantasy or sci-fi because the rules are different in different universes! The greatest cartoonist in the history of the universe agrees with me!

(http://www.qwantz.com/comics/comic2-1783.png) (http://"http://www.qwantz.com/index.php?comic=1759")

Alternatively, he might read these forums and have presumed that I forgot about this ;D
Title: Re: You know what else grinds my gears?
Post by: Bosola on 2010-07-24 17:34:12: I've been sad enough to make the exact case in an old, asinine 'Sephiroth vs Darth Vader' thread. There's no force in FF7 and no lifestream in the Star Wars universe, and as the two would work in contradictory ways, there's no hope of a 'battle ground' that would support either mechanic. Sephiroth's Jenova-body held together with manipulated lifestream and tape would fall apart, turning into a foamy mess, and Vader's armour, unsupported by the force, would topple him over. It'd be like watching a fight between a burst fire extinguisher and an anchor.
Title: Re: You know what else grinds my gears?
Post by: Furzball on 2010-07-24 18:03:34: Quote from: Bosola on 2010-07-24 17:34:12
I've been sad enough to make the exact case in an old, asinine 'Sephiroth vs Darth Vader' thread. There's no force in FF7 and no lifestream in the Star Wars universe, and as the two would work in contradictory ways, there's no hope of a 'battle ground' that would support either mechanic. Sephiroth's Jenova-body held together with manipulated lifestream and tape would fall apart, turning into a foamy mess, and Vader's armour, unsupported by the force, would topple him over. It'd be like watching a fight between a burst fire extinguisher and an anchor.
Vader wins!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iGoCJPcfA1o (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iGoCJPcfA1o)
Title: Re: You know what else grinds my gears?
Post by: The Seer of Shadows on 2010-07-24 18:30:05: No, Sephiroth wins! (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=boGwMXzCpus&feature=related)

(Golbez is pretty much the closest thing to Darth Vader in Final Fantasy.)