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Title: What truly happened in Nibelheim??
Post by: nikfrozty on 2010-05-27 13:32:49
This has been bugging me. In Cloud's memory Nibelheim burnt down but he wasn't their it was Zack right?? So I assumed that Nibelheim didn't really burn since Cloud's memory has been twisted. But when in the lifestream with Tifa the truth was revealed that Cloud wasn't the Soldier Sephiroth came with but he's still with them as a Shinra Soldier. But the problem is when Zack came outside the Shinra Mansion Nibelheim was burning. So that means it did happen right?? But when you progress into the game Nibelheim didn't burn down and the villagers say the town was never burnt down. So what really happened?? I'm confused. ???
Title: Re: What truly happened in Nibelheim??
Post by: Marc on 2010-05-27 13:37:22
Shinra rebuilt it.

It's explained in a letter to Hojo on Tifa's desk the first time you come across it in the field (when you have the buggy after Cosmo Canyon).  In fact, I encourage you to put Tifa in your party at that point and talk to townspeople.

As to why they did well that's another question entirely.
Title: Re: What truly happened in Nibelheim??
Post by: DarkFang on 2010-05-27 13:38:43
The incident at Nibelheim was 5 years prior to the beginning of the game. Yes Nibelheim did burn down, but the town was repaired.
Title: Re: What truly happened in Nibelheim??
Post by: nikfrozty on 2010-05-27 13:43:51
So that means all the real townspeople in the game died and was also replaced by Shinra?? But how do you explain Vincent?? In Crisis Core Zack came to the mansion and he sees the tomb of Vincent but he don't touch it right?? So Shinra does not touch or change anything in the Shinra Mansion only the town houses?? And what happened to Zangan and Tifa's dad?? Have too many questions sorry.

EDIT:Forget about the question about the townspeople I've seen the report.
Title: Re: What truly happened in Nibelheim??
Post by: nfitc1 on 2010-05-27 14:46:11
So that means all the real townspeople in the game died and was also replaced by Shinra?? But how do you explain Vincent?? In Crisis Core Zack came to the mansion and he sees the tomb of Vincent but he don't touch it right?? So Shinra does not touch or change anything in the Shinra Mansion only the town houses?? And what happened to Zangan and Tifa's dad?? Have too many questions sorry.

EDIT:Forget about the question about the townspeople I've seen the report.

Zangan left. The letter to Tifa you find later says such. Tifa's dad was killed by Sephiroth (probably trying to stop him from getting inside Jenova's chamber). As for the Shinra Mansion, it wasn't touched. We don't know how or why Sephiroth decided to burn the town or how he did so so quickly after leaving the Mansion's basement. Shinra covered it up because they wanted Sephiroth to remain a hero in the eyes of the people. If word spread that one of Shinra's best SOLDIERs went crazy and torched a town they'd lose faith in Shinra. So they rebuilt the town completely and hired people to pretend like nothing happened.
Title: Re: What truly happened in Nibelheim??
Post by: DLPB_ on 2010-05-27 15:12:45
It is simple, forget the prequels and sequels as they were never intended.  But yes it has been answered above :)
Title: Re: What truly happened in Nibelheim??
Post by: BlitzNCS on 2010-05-27 15:18:33
http://thelifestream.net/wp-content/uploads/2009/03/nibelheim.png
http://ff7.fr/screen/nibelheim.png

This might be of some relevance. I hadn't noticed it until recently, when Espio showed me.
The games uses 2 different renders of nibelheim, one before and one after it was rebuilt
Title: Re: What truly happened in Nibelheim??
Post by: nikfrozty on 2010-05-27 15:20:44
So that means all the real townspeople in the game died and was also replaced by Shinra?? But how do you explain Vincent?? In Crisis Core Zack came to the mansion and he sees the tomb of Vincent but he don't touch it right?? So Shinra does not touch or change anything in the Shinra Mansion only the town houses?? And what happened to Zangan and Tifa's dad?? Have too many questions sorry.

EDIT:Forget about the question about the townspeople I've seen the report.

Zangan left. The letter to Tifa you find later says such. Tifa's dad was killed by Sephiroth (probably trying to stop him from getting inside Jenova's chamber). As for the Shinra Mansion, it wasn't touched. We don't know how or why Sephiroth decided to burn the town or how he did so so quickly after leaving the Mansion's basement. Shinra covered it up because they wanted Sephiroth to remain a hero in the eyes of the people. If word spread that one of Shinra's best SOLDIERs went crazy and torched a town they'd lose faith in Shinra. So they rebuilt the town completely and hired people to pretend like nothing happened.
So that's what happened. Thanks for the explanation. Vincent really sleep well that day he didn't hear any of the ruckus outside the mansion. Well in fact he was in the basement or he doesn't care that time.
Title: Re: What truly happened in Nibelheim??
Post by: obesebear on 2010-05-27 15:32:31
http://thelifestream.net/wp-content/uploads/2009/03/nibelheim.png
http://ff7.fr/screen/nibelheim.png

This might be of some relevance. I hadn't noticed it until recently, when Espio showed me.
The games uses 2 different renders of nibelheim, one before and one after it was rebuilt

I thought so.   Something always seemed a little off with the scene, but I could never put my finger on it
Title: Re: What truly happened in Nibelheim??
Post by: nikfrozty on 2010-05-27 15:41:40
The first thing I noticed was that it was brighter and their seems to be this post in front of the mansion which is not present in the first one. Their are round things on top of what I think is the chimney of the house and many more but not too obvious. Hmm :-\
Title: Re: What truly happened in Nibelheim??
Post by: DarkFang on 2010-05-27 15:44:57
I actually never noticed they used two different renders of the town.
Title: Re: What truly happened in Nibelheim??
Post by: jeffdamann on 2010-05-27 17:21:26
So that means all the real townspeople in the game died and was also replaced by Shinra?? But how do you explain Vincent?? In Crisis Core Zack came to the mansion and he sees the tomb of Vincent but he don't touch it right?? So Shinra does not touch or change anything in the Shinra Mansion only the town houses?? And what happened to Zangan and Tifa's dad?? Have too many questions sorry.

EDIT:Forget about the question about the townspeople I've seen the report.

Zangan left. The letter to Tifa you find later says such. Tifa's dad was killed by Sephiroth (probably trying to stop him from getting inside Jenova's chamber). As for the Shinra Mansion, it wasn't touched. We don't know how or why Sephiroth decided to burn the town or how he did so so quickly after leaving the Mansion's basement. Shinra covered it up because they wanted Sephiroth to remain a hero in the eyes of the people. If word spread that one of Shinra's best SOLDIERs went crazy and torched a town they'd lose faith in Shinra. So they rebuilt the town completely and hired people to pretend like nothing happened.


I always try to put myself in characters positions and also more in a novel sense than a game sense. I forget the limitations provided by the games gprahical and animation procedures and try to imagine their world as my own,as If I were really cloud or sephiroth.

Here's my analysis.
Sephrioth's entire life and being were challenged when he saw the experiments going on in that reactor.In an already troubled life not knowing exactly where you came from, coupled with the horror of reality, made him snap.

After studying to learn his past, cloud comes, and sephiroth enters the final stage of his insanity.

Seeing how Sephiroth is so powerful, it would make sense that he is VERY fast, I always assumed he was MUCH faster than cloud, and upon exiting the mansion, he cast the mother of all fire spells on the town so that he would not have anyone in his way and could slow you down.
Title: Re: What truly happened in Nibelheim??
Post by: nikfrozty on 2010-05-27 17:29:10
So that means all the real townspeople in the game died and was also replaced by Shinra?? But how do you explain Vincent?? In Crisis Core Zack came to the mansion and he sees the tomb of Vincent but he don't touch it right?? So Shinra does not touch or change anything in the Shinra Mansion only the town houses?? And what happened to Zangan and Tifa's dad?? Have too many questions sorry.

EDIT:Forget about the question about the townspeople I've seen the report.

Zangan left. The letter to Tifa you find later says such. Tifa's dad was killed by Sephiroth (probably trying to stop him from getting inside Jenova's chamber). As for the Shinra Mansion, it wasn't touched. We don't know how or why Sephiroth decided to burn the town or how he did so so quickly after leaving the Mansion's basement. Shinra covered it up because they wanted Sephiroth to remain a hero in the eyes of the people. If word spread that one of Shinra's best SOLDIERs went crazy and torched a town they'd lose faith in Shinra. So they rebuilt the town completely and hired people to pretend like nothing happened.


I always try to put myself in characters positions and also more in a novel sense than a game sense. I forget the limitations provided by the games gprahical and animation procedures and try to imagine their world as my own,as If I were really cloud or sephiroth.

Here's my analysis.
Sephrioth's entire life and being were challenged when he saw the experiments going on in that reactor.In an already troubled life not knowing exactly where you came from, coupled with the horror of reality, made him snap.

After studying to learn his past, cloud comes, and sephiroth enters the final stage of his insanity.

Seeing how Sephiroth is so powerful, it would make sense that he is VERY fast, I always assumed he was MUCH faster than cloud, and upon exiting the mansion, he cast the mother of all fire spells on the town so that he would not have anyone in his way and could slow you down.
Or he could've summon Bahamut to destroy the town or Ifrit. There's no better explanation than magic or summon to the burning town so fast.
Title: Re: What truly happened in Nibelheim??
Post by: Furzball on 2010-05-27 17:52:25
He could've also been stressed out cause he had lost both of his only friends during that time. Genesis and Angreal in Crisis Core. Though obvious not in the original game.
Title: Re: What truly happened in Nibelheim??
Post by: Timber on 2010-05-27 17:52:57
http://thelifestream.net/wp-content/uploads/2009/03/nibelheim.png
http://ff7.fr/screen/nibelheim.png

This might be of some relevance. I hadn't noticed it until recently, when Espio showed me.
The games uses 2 different renders of nibelheim, one before and one after it was rebuilt

Wow I never noticed this either.
Very cool, thanks for that.
Title: Re: What truly happened in Nibelheim??
Post by: nfitc1 on 2010-05-27 18:16:34
http://thelifestream.net/wp-content/uploads/2009/03/nibelheim.png
http://ff7.fr/screen/nibelheim.png

This might be of some relevance. I hadn't noticed it until recently, when Espio showed me.
The games uses 2 different renders of nibelheim, one before and one after it was rebuilt

I noticed they were different, but I've never seen them side-by-side.

The top one has street signs and the bottom one doesn't, the well's fan is different, the roof over the building in the lower left is slightly different, the ground isn't cobblestone in the bottom one, and it looks like some different construction materials were used between the two of them. Those are the only differences I see. Other than time of day.
Title: Re: What truly happened in Nibelheim??
Post by: ultima espio on 2010-05-27 18:21:32
burnt down and rebuilt over the 5 years. Some people DID survive, those were the people that you see in Nibelheim in black cloaks. Hojo used them as Sephiroth test subjects like Cloud and Zack. The most noticeable one is the two kids in the house next to Tifa's, when you visit them as Cloud in the flashback, one copies the other, and the two in black cloaks do the same when you visit them during disc 1. Due to one being in Tifa's house, its quite possible that Sephiroth didnt actually kill Tifa's father at all, but left him unconscious for Hojo to experiment on.
Title: Re: What truly happened in Nibelheim??
Post by: DarkFang on 2010-05-27 18:22:46
burnt down and rebuilt over the 5 years. Some people DID survive, those were the people that you see in Nibelheim in black cloaks. Hojo used them as Sephiroth test subjects like Cloud and Zack. The most noticeable one is the two kids in the house next to Tifa's, when you visit them as Cloud in the flashback, one copies the other, and the two in black cloaks do the same when you visit them during disk 1. Due to one being in Tifa's house, its quite possible that Sephiroth didnt actually kill Tifa's father at all, but left him unconscious for Hojo to experiment on.

It's disc not disk.

Ah ha you changed it. Good.
Title: Re: What truly happened in Nibelheim??
Post by: nikfrozty on 2010-05-27 20:01:07
burnt down and rebuilt over the 5 years. Some people DID survive, those were the people that you see in Nibelheim in black cloaks. Hojo used them as Sephiroth test subjects like Cloud and Zack. The most noticeable one is the two kids in the house next to Tifa's, when you visit them as Cloud in the flashback, one copies the other, and the two in black cloaks do the same when you visit them during disc 1. Due to one being in Tifa's house, its quite possible that Sephiroth didnt actually kill Tifa's father at all, but left him unconscious for Hojo to experiment on.
So they were made clones of Sephiroth?? So everyone who stayed alive in there was made an experiment like Zack and Cloud. How sad. :-( Last Question, Cloud carried Tifa to the side when she was slashed by Sephiroth right?? It means she was there when Zack and Cloud was used as experiments. Question is what happened to Tifa?? Who healed her and why did she end up on midgar?? I thought it was Zangan who healed her but as you said, Sephiroth killed Zangan.
Title: Re: What truly happened in Nibelheim??
Post by: Gemini on 2010-05-27 20:12:38
Sephiroth did not kill Zangan. The game clearly says that Zangan helps Tifa by seeking medical help in Midgar, but then he leaves her behind and continues on his journey.
Title: Re: What truly happened in Nibelheim??
Post by: nikfrozty on 2010-05-27 20:39:32
Oops I mistook Zangan for Tifa's father. Sorry. I understand the story more. Hmm But I wonder why she ended up working with Barret. Maybe she joined since they were fighting Shinra and its the reason for the loss of many important persons in her life.
Title: Re: What truly happened in Nibelheim??
Post by: Furzball on 2010-05-27 23:17:20
Oops I mistook Zangan for Tifa's father. Sorry. I understand the story more. Hmm But I wonder why she ended up working with Barret. Maybe she joined since they were fighting Shinra and its the reason for the loss of many important persons in her life.
(http://fc00.deviantart.net/fs33/f/2008/311/7/8/Duh_by_nekookami.gif)
Title: Re: What truly happened in Nibelheim??
Post by: DarkFang on 2010-05-27 23:27:49
Why wasn't Genesis or Angeal mentioned in Final Fantasy VII or Advent Children?
Title: Re: What truly happened in Nibelheim??
Post by: nikfrozty on 2010-05-27 23:42:19
I guess back then they do not exist yet or square-enix don't have a story for Zack so there's no Genesis or Angeal. I saw in some site that square-enix saw that there was actually a story for Zack written by Tetsuya Nomura. I'm not sure if its Tetsuya I can't remember but I'm sure he was also involved in the main game. When they knew about the story of Zack Crisis Core was born. :)
Title: Re: What truly happened in Nibelheim??
Post by: Jaitsu on 2010-05-28 03:06:54
oh, cloud was there, he was just one of the MPs though, not an actual soldier.
Title: Re: What truly happened in Nibelheim??
Post by: ultima espio on 2010-05-28 13:54:30
Why wasn't Genesis or Angeal mentioned in Final Fantasy VII or Advent Children?

The only characters that knew of them were either dead, or not seen much. Besides, why would they need to be mentioned?
Title: Re: What truly happened in Nibelheim??
Post by: DarkFang on 2010-05-28 19:15:10
Why wasn't Genesis or Angeal mentioned in Final Fantasy VII or Advent Children?

The only characters that knew of them were either dead, or not seen much. Besides, why would they need to be mentioned?

Angeal was the original owner of the Buster Sword.
Genesis was at the Neibelheim Mako Reactor when Sephiroth went crazy.

Cloud knew and saw Genesis. I can't really remember where he saw him though.
Title: Re: What truly happened in Nibelheim??
Post by: obesebear on 2010-05-28 19:17:37
Cloud only saw Genesis when he had severe mako poisoning, and never saw Angeal
Title: Re: What truly happened in Nibelheim??
Post by: DarkFang on 2010-05-28 19:21:17
Cloud only saw Genesis when he had severe mako poisoning, and never saw Angeal

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0IFlfuKJBmE

This was before the effects of Mako poisoning.

Another question, why wasn't Hollander mentioned at all?
Title: Re: What truly happened in Nibelheim??
Post by: obesebear on 2010-05-29 05:31:34
Good point.  Your Crisis Core knowledge is apparently superior to mine.

Therefore, to answer your question about Angeal, Genesis, and Hollander

Spoiler: show
Crisis Core was created some 10 years after the original FF7 was released.  New characters were created and squeezed into the story
Title: Re: What truly happened in Nibelheim??
Post by: DarkFang on 2010-05-29 05:54:32
Even if Cloud never saw Genesis or Angeal, he would have known them from Zack's memories.

But I guess I'll leave it at that.
Title: Re: What truly happened in Nibelheim??
Post by: obesebear on 2010-05-29 06:11:07
He didn't get all of Zack's memories.   A good example is him not recognizing Aerith at the beginning of the game nor when he fell through the roof of the church.
It's been explained somewhere before, but a more accurate representation of what happened is some of Zack's and some of Cloud's memories were meshed together, but definitely not all.

As a side note I just want to say that the way the DMW played into the ending was purely genius.
Title: Re: What truly happened in Nibelheim??
Post by: DarkFang on 2010-05-29 06:14:44
He didn't get all of Zack's memories.   A good example is him not recognizing Aerith at the beginning of the game nor when he fell through the roof of the church.
It's been explained somewhere before, but a more accurate representation of what happened is some of Zack's and some of Cloud's memories were meshed together, but definitely not all.

As a side note I just want to say that the way the DMW played into the ending was purely genius.

That part was really sad for me. I could feel my eyes watering up during the last moments of Crisis Core. Yes, go ahead call me a pussy.
Title: Re: What truly happened in Nibelheim??
Post by: nikfrozty on 2010-05-29 09:38:39
But I wonder how Cloud managed to stab Sephiroth when Zack couldn't defeat him to obliteration. Well at least Sephiroth's been injured for Cloud to stab. Maybe he has the strength to be 1st Class Soldier after all. :)
Title: Re: What truly happened in Nibelheim??
Post by: Roxas on 2010-05-29 09:46:31
http://thelifestream.net/wp-content/uploads/2009/03/nibelheim.png
http://ff7.fr/screen/nibelheim.png

This might be of some relevance. I hadn't noticed it until recently, when Espio showed me.
The games uses 2 different renders of nibelheim, one before and one after it was rebuilt


http://i.imagehost.org/dl/9ac1313c3424e1845f8d9c62b5217b94/0857/nibelheim_past-new.gif

Animated gif, transitioning between the past/current Nibelheim, easy to spot the differences.

It is interesting that the Manor didn't catch fire (or at least hadn't at that point, and if it did then the damage must have been minor).
Title: Re: What truly happened in Nibelheim??
Post by: nikfrozty on 2010-05-29 09:53:00
http://thelifestream.net/wp-content/uploads/2009/03/nibelheim.png
http://ff7.fr/screen/nibelheim.png

This might be of some relevance. I hadn't noticed it until recently, when Espio showed me.
The games uses 2 different renders of nibelheim, one before and one after it was rebuilt


http://i.imagehost.org/dl/9ac1313c3424e1845f8d9c62b5217b94/0857/nibelheim_past-new.gif

Animated gif, transitioning between the past/current Nibelheim, easy to spot the differences.

It is interesting that the Manor didn't catch fire (or at least hadn't at that point, and if it did then the damage must have been minor).
Thanks for that I can actually see the main difference is the texture of the houses.
Title: Re: What truly happened in Nibelheim??
Post by: obesebear on 2010-05-29 11:15:01
He didn't get all of Zack's memories.   A good example is him not recognizing Aerith at the beginning of the game nor when he fell through the roof of the church.
It's been explained somewhere before, but a more accurate representation of what happened is some of Zack's and some of Cloud's memories were meshed together, but definitely not all.

As a side note I just want to say that the way the DMW played into the ending was purely genius.

That part was really sad for me. I could feel my eyes watering up during the last moments of Crisis Core. Yes, go ahead call me a pussy.
Nah, not at all.  It was extremely well done.   I already really enjoyed the game, the ending just made it even better.
Title: Re: What truly happened in Nibelheim??
Post by: nikfrozty on 2010-05-29 11:30:04
He didn't get all of Zack's memories.   A good example is him not recognizing Aerith at the beginning of the game nor when he fell through the roof of the church.
It's been explained somewhere before, but a more accurate representation of what happened is some of Zack's and some of Cloud's memories were meshed together, but definitely not all.

As a side note I just want to say that the way the DMW played into the ending was purely genius.

That part was really sad for me. I could feel my eyes watering up during the last moments of Crisis Core. Yes, go ahead call me a pussy.
Don't worry about it dude. That part made me sad but the part that kind of made me cry was when the letter was flying and when Tseng have all Zack's letters and Aerith didn't know what happened to Zack. Kinda liked the idea that Zack was coming home to Aerith but was killed in his attempt to save Cloud. "sad" :(
Title: Re: What truly happened in Nibelheim??
Post by: Jaitsu on 2010-05-30 00:07:42
i shed tears, my brother practically balled his eyes out.

it was a great ending in crisis core, and for what its worth, it was one of the most well done endings i had seen in a very long time
Title: Re: What truly happened in Nibelheim??
Post by: Furzball on 2010-05-30 06:09:05
I started tearing up in a van full of people. Talk about embarassing.