Author Topic: I realized something... (Read 8583 times)

liquidsub · « **on:** 2004-08-10 05:25:03 »

Might have been brought up before but just in case...

I noticed that you can hack a model and make it better, hence the new hi-res Cloud model. But what if you make it good enough to look like an FF12 model? Is that possible?

Same with making that Cloud field model where you see a taller Cloud outside of battles. Make it look PS2 quality.
Gotta be possible, right?
It may look funny cause you're having PS2 quality models fight against PS1 outdated graphics, but hey it's worth it. And if you wanna go crazy, then update all the monsters heh.

If you think I'm crazy, you should check out those guys who are remaking Chrono Trigger. So far it's PS2 quality and looking great.
Just a project I thought you guys might think of doing. I'd do it but I'm no expert at this stuff so excuse my ignorance if I don't know the true meaning of how hard this is.

halkun · « **Reply #1 on:** 2004-08-10 05:56:57 »

and where is the chono trigger game that you speak of?

CForrester · « **Reply #2 on:** 2004-08-10 05:58:57 »

I don't think so... The FF7 engine is old, it won't be able to handle such a high-poly model without slowdowns.

Ged · « **Reply #3 on:** 2004-08-10 06:24:36 »

Making a h-q model and making a screenshot of it is one thing, putting it in your own game engine is a different thing, and adding it to an already existent engine.. especially FF7's... When rewriting everything it might be possible, but adding it in a way you mentioned is quite impossible..
And PS2 quality... well.. good luck with achieving it. I saw some higher-poly FF related models running around but they differed too much from the original, and I would definaetly not put them into the game if I were to decide (Q3 mods etc.).

liquidsub · « **Reply #4 on:** 2004-08-10 06:38:21 »

Cool, any links to those models?

Oh, and how foolish of me:
http://www.opcoder.com/projects/chrono/news/

halkun · « **Reply #5 on:** 2004-08-10 07:13:40 »

You know, I'm reminded of a rant that Gabe did at Penny arcade.

Gabe has a bit of a tiff with webcomics that use video game sprites as thier main characters. It's not really the issue of the art that he has a problem with, it's more of the ownership quagmire that's involved with it.

You see, Gabe and Tyco did Penny Arcade for fun, and it sort of exploded from there. Now it's probably the biggest video-game related webcomic out there. The thing is, Gabe and Tycho can support themselvs from the years of work they put into it because they wholly own that they are making. They can mechendise thier comic however they want etc etc...

Gabe takes issure with sprite comics because the sprite comic aurthor is painting himself into a corner without even knowing it. You see. The poor guy doesn't *OWN* the graphics, or the concept behind the graphics that he's using to tell the story. What if it became really popular? Well, the poor guy coudn't sell jack because he is, in effect, ripping off someone elses work.

This is pretty much the same thing, only in 3d.

I find it amusing that at the bottom he says "Resurrection Games is not affiliated with Square Enix Co., Ltd. in any shape or form."

This is a boldfaced lie. From Dictionary.com.....

Quote

afÂ·filÂ·iÂ·ate v. to become closely connected or associated.

You don't need Square's permission to be affiliated with them. It's not a contract or anything. Being affiliated to something simply means you are connect to it by some common means.

You see, remaking Chono Trigger *AFFILIATES* thier project with Square's. Not only that, Square has every right to sue them for Trademark dullition and copyright infrignement.

This reminds me of the DBZ Bid for Power Quake 3 mod. Turns out that they were threatend with a lawsuit and had to Change the game Even though this was free and not "Affilited" with the makers of Dragonball Z.

It didn't matter.

This is really murky waters to be playing with,

EmperorSteele · « **Reply #6 on:** 2004-08-10 16:39:03 »

Well, back on topic:

its technically impossible at this point to give the game new, higher-res graphics. The hi-res cloud patch, for example.. That's NOT a new model. it's just the final battle cloud pluged in place to where Cloud would normally be. Same with the field patch: that data alredy existed within the game's framework.

I've tried exporting/altering/importing some of the battle models. FF7 wouldn't take the bait in most cases. it looks for files of a certain size and a certain number of polys, i think. So to make all-new, detailed models.. well, i dun think it would work.

Now, taking existing modesasnd stretching thier polys is a viable option. I'm sure that with good deal of tweaking, the Sephiroth hi-poly model *could* be made into a Tifa or Aeris shape. but i'm to lazy to atempt, so.. mweh.

Halkun: While you may be right, this hasnt stopped 8-bit theater from selling Fighter/BM etc related merchandise. Plus, under the free-use act, copyright holders rights over thier creations become limited when dealing with fan work. Not only is it stupid for companies to sue thier fans, but legally, they wouldn't win such lawsuites, as the fanwork is still the creation of the artist.

Like, you know that painting of the campbels soup cans? Campbells has no ownership of that painting. Sprite comics are the same way. Its just pre-existing elements superimposed in various ways onto a digital canvas. It's an effort on the artists part, and is therefore thier property.

ficedula · « **Reply #7 on:** 2004-08-10 16:55:47 »

Most legal systems give some sort of exemption for parodies. 8-bit theatre can just about claim that, so they get away with it. Anything else, you'd almost certainly lose the court case. Just because you put artistic effort into it doesn't remove the copyright interest the original creators have in it; parody gets an exception because most democratic societies consider the act of pointing out when people have screwed up to be important in a political sense.

halkun · « **Reply #8 on:** 2004-08-10 17:21:21 »

8 bit theater is a parody, and *SHOULD* be protected. But I'm watching the "This Lind is Your Land" lawsuit. Right now the company that owns the rights are trying to get the courts to say that you can't parody if don't have something to say about the *WORK* You can't just use an arbarary topic, like elections.

The chono trigger thing is most definatly not a parody, but a remake. Knowing how lawyers like to hang in shadows, I'm sure they are watching.

By the way, I've been studying intellectual Property Law for the last four years. I'm not a lawyer and I don't have the facilities at work to site court cases. But I can when push comes to shove.

See U.S. Vs Larry Flynt and Universal media vs MAD magazine on parody pricedence.

liquidsub · « **Reply #9 on:** 2004-08-10 19:54:26 »

I look at these kinda law suits as breaking our first ammendment, I really do..

So FF7 looks for the right size. Isn't there a way to make it so it doesn't care about the file size?
Seems to me like there's only small possibilitys. If there's hope at all, then you can turn small hope into big hope.
Hey, maybe those CT guys can give advice.
I also know someone who's a pro at that Maya program and works at a college. Maybe I'll ask him about stuff.

Almighty_gir · « **Reply #10 on:** 2004-08-11 12:44:09 »

well...ive made a good sephiroth model. i think i put the wallpaper in the general section of this board. putting him in-game tho is different. if i remember rightly, you cant put more information into the game than was already in there. for example. if sephiroth was 1560 polies. then if you put anything more in, it wont accept it....

i think thats how it happened...its been a while since i tried

Ged · « **Reply #11 on:** 2004-08-11 14:58:16 »

Quote from: Almighty_gir

well...ive made a good sephiroth model.

Might sound like attacking but it's not.. The model Almighty_gir is mentioning is exactly one of those models that should not be put in the game. Not because of quality - as a B4P model it's ok, but it completely does not hold the FF climate..

I guess with 3d modelling is the same as with drawing... The style can be adequate or it can not.

Almighty_gir · « **Reply #12 on:** 2004-08-11 20:29:20 »

Quote from: Ged

Quote from: Almighty_gir
well...ive made a good sephiroth model.

Might sound like attacking but it's not.. The model Almighty_gir is mentioning is exactly one of those models that should not be put in the game. Not because of quality - as a B4P model it's ok, but it completely does not hold the FF climate..

I guess with 3d modelling is the same as with drawing... The style can be adequate or it can not.

are you insane?? its not for b4p..... lol. i understand what your saying, but i had to build him arround a skeleton which has human proportions...so it couldnt be deformed like the origional...

anyway, the point i was trying to make was the difficulty getting it in game...and i think im right.

Ged · « **Reply #13 on:** 2004-08-12 04:40:27 »

The original Seph-Cloud-battle model was deformed...? (will be fighting him soon, will check... - don't feel like extracting..)

Almighty_gir · « **Reply #14 on:** 2004-08-12 22:01:10 »

all of them were, it was just very subtle. especially with cloud. his torso is WAY too small for his legs and arms. its just a general anime twist.

Cyberman · « **Reply #15 on:** 2004-08-13 20:06:09 »

Quick list of things that are possible and are not possible in FF7 depending on the system you are using (mostly).
[list=1]

It is possible to improve model however the engine that runs the model might have problems with it because it's not overly flexible. IE if you for example modified Tifa's playstation model to use texture polygons for her shirt (lets say you want to put a navel where the shirt is exposing her midriff). This creates a few problems. First you need to modify the texture, namely enlarge it. Second you need to remove the color vertex polys and make them textured polys for the area about her waist after all that you need to recompress it etc. The engine might have a problem with the enlarged file, as each characters data is loaded into memory during the battle (2megs of main memory cloud takes I think 150K uncompress TIFA 120K Aeris 140K then the enemy data is needed thank goodness it's ussually just 1 type). The battle uses about 1024K just for the models alone (this includes the background scene). The bottom line is, tweak carefully.
Engine spasms! If you rearrange things in the LGP's or on the PSX disks, things could go wrong fast. Why? The LGP I think uses permanent index files to the locations of things inside the archives, this makes grabing them faster. The PSX version does something similiar only it uses the SECTOR # instead. This means all the files are refered with an absolute reference within the engine. This creates the next problem, data might be mislocated by changing a model and now you have a new problem, the engine can't find it or is loading incorrect data.[/list:o]

Cyb

ficedula · « **Reply #16 on:** 2004-08-13 22:51:11 »

LGP's, we can rewrite and create fully, so that isn't a problem. I could well believe changing PSX data was less easy.

fa_pa · « **Reply #17 on:** 2004-08-14 00:02:17 »

jep i tried to create a patch for HiRes cloud for psx but it didn`t work. it was not possible to create a booting disc

Messiah99 · « **Reply #18 on:** 2004-08-14 06:13:58 »

Quote from: fa_pa

jep i tried to create a patch for HiRes cloud for psx but it didn`t work. it was not possible to create a booting disc

Might get in a bit o' trouble for this, but you can get a disc just for that, you get a PSX bootable disc, use that to boot any game burned from an image of a PSX disc, put it in the PSX, turn it on, then when its time to, just switch in the disc for your game.

If thats too close to the illegal side to say according to any mod, my apologies and edit as you see fit.

Vanit · « **Reply #19 on:** 2004-08-19 08:56:55 »

I believe by 'not making a booting disc' they meant that once they had created the new iso out of the files it refused to boot at all (on an emulator, for the slower population).

Author Topic: I realized something... (Read 8583 times)

CForrester