Author Topic: Final Fantasy 8 - A critical reevaluation  (Read 17393 times)

koral

  • Guest
Final Fantasy 8 - A critical reevaluation
« on: 2009-06-17 00:34:36 »
I stumbled across this on kotaku today, I thought I should share it with everyone here:

http://www.popmatters.com/pm/feature/70336-remembering-the-orphan-final-fantasy-viii/


It is a nice article written by someone called Jack Patrick Rodgers, and it explores some of the deeper meanings and metaphors of the game.
(um, it does contain spoilers :wink:)

A couple of excerpts from the article:

Quote
By contrast, Final Fantasy VIII knew exactly what it was trying to be: a coming-of-age story built on the metaphor that growing up is a long, dangerous journey.  What’s even more interesting than the game’s attempts at plausible character development and thematic depth is the fact that it’s part of a larger trend.  Final Fantasy VIII was released only two years after Buffy the Vampire Slayer debuted on television and the first Harry Potter novel was published in England.  What all three works have in common is their use of fantasy as a rich, multi-layered allegory for adolescent pain.  Their success paved the way for other genre crossbreeds like Pan’s Labyrinth (childhood fears as nightmarish creatures), Battle Royale (high-school rivalries as ultraviolence), and Veronica Mars (high-school backstabbing as film noir), but while Buffy and Harry Potter have been frequently championed, Final Fantasy VIII has been mostly forgotten.

and

Quote
The game’s other shortcoming is harder to dismiss: the English translation is passable at best, terribly awkward at worst.  Given the sheer volume of text in a 50-hour storyline, it’s probably too much to hope for something that feels more literary (like Alexander O. Smith’s superb translation for Vagrant Story in 2000), but some conversations border on nonsensical.  When a character suddenly starts laughing even when nothing funny is happening, it’s clear that some of the details are getting lost in translation.  The dialogue still makes it possible to follow the plot, but it’s difficult not to wonder if the original Japanese script had a little life or poetry to it.

The latter suggests that perhaps the Japanese script needs to be visited too  :lol:
I wonder just how many of the older Final Fantays have butchered translations? FF6 was another IIRC


I wont claim that i love this game above all the other FF's, but I dont believe it deserves the hate which often receives.

For Rinoa's sake atleast, I will spread the word:
  Final Fantasy 8 is really not as shallow as it may seem!  :-D

DLPB_

  • Banned
  • *
  • Posts: 11006
    • View Profile
Re: Final Fantasy 8 - A critical reevaluation
« Reply #1 on: 2009-06-17 00:56:55 »
8 is my 3rd favourite FF after 7 and 10 but the music score is my fave :)

Aali

  • *
  • Posts: 1196
    • View Profile
Re: Final Fantasy 8 - A critical reevaluation
« Reply #2 on: 2009-06-17 01:31:15 »
Squall is still a whiny bitch that makes you wish you could play Lagunas entire storyline instead.

That said, FF8 was not a bad game but it doesn't quite measure up to FF7 in terms of (re)playability and popularity.
FF7 has the golden saucer, an entire area filled with good (and some not so good) minigames.
Combine that with the possible complexity of materia setups and weapon/armor/accessory choices and you'll still have a lot of new things to discover after your first few playthroughs.
FF8 has the card game which is brilliant, addictive and simple. But other than that, I haven't found many things that were interesting enough to pursue in a replay.

Covarr

  • Covarr-Let
  • Administrator
  • *
  • Posts: 3940
  • Just Covarr. No "n".
    • View Profile
Re: Final Fantasy 8 - A critical reevaluation
« Reply #3 on: 2009-06-17 04:53:26 »
"their use of fantasy as a rich, multi-layered allegory for adolescent pain."

I read that as "emo". And it's true. Squall is quite emo. So emo that he decided to change his name for Kingdom Hearts. Not because he thought Leon would be a cooler name, or easier to remember. He was emo, and had emo reasons for doing it, because he associated the name Squall with his emo memories.

This is not to say that I don't like FF8. I simply don't like Squall.

koral

  • Guest
Re: Final Fantasy 8 - A critical reevaluation
« Reply #4 on: 2009-06-17 11:39:40 »
wow, and I thought people might have hated Rinoa the most :-P
It was interesting to note the article only mentioned Rinoa a few times, as though she was nothing but a side-character.
The entire plot revolved around Squall primarily and the changes he underwent as he progressed through the game
.
I liked Squall's design very much, but I agree that his personality came out a little too emo.
I suppose it was this, combined with the annoying battle-system which caused the game to be disliked and considered sub-par by many.

FF7 was recently made available on PSN, I wonder if FF8 will too?

DLPB_

  • Banned
  • *
  • Posts: 11006
    • View Profile
Re: Final Fantasy 8 - A critical reevaluation
« Reply #5 on: 2009-06-17 12:25:14 »
I thought squalls story was great,. He is a sociopath....he doesnt want to get hurt again liek when his "sis" ellone was forced away so he rejects people and slowly he changes that stance with the help of Rinoa.

I thought it was a clever love story showing a character evolve and give life a chance.

hotdog963al

  • *
  • Posts: 236
  • Horse
    • View Profile
    • Horse HQ
Re: Final Fantasy 8 - A critical reevaluation
« Reply #6 on: 2009-06-17 12:53:11 »
Wow that was a great read!

FF8 is very closely my favourite. 7 being #1 of course.
8's story touched my heart. Was in tears at the end (was only young!)

Hellbringer616

  • *
  • Posts: 1913
    • View Profile
Re: Final Fantasy 8 - A critical reevaluation
« Reply #7 on: 2009-06-17 16:22:43 »
Personally, i thought it was to mushy myself. and there were times i thought squall was being to much of a pansy. But maybe all of this would be fixed with a proper translation? Or is he still a pansy? Who knows.

Magic system sucked in that game though, Use magic, get weaker? WTF?

DLPB_

  • Banned
  • *
  • Posts: 11006
    • View Profile
Re: Final Fantasy 8 - A critical reevaluation
« Reply #8 on: 2009-06-17 16:26:00 »
haha I loved the magic....the idea that different spells could make your stats stronger but the more of them you had the better you were and drawing from enemies.

ff8 can be called many things but lzy isnt one of them.  A lot of work went into divising new ideas :)

Prince Lex

  • *
  • Posts: 882
  • Opinionfact is Redundancy
    • View Profile
Re: Final Fantasy 8 - A critical reevaluation
« Reply #9 on: 2009-06-17 17:03:08 »
That really was an interesting read.

I'd like to see a project dedicated to retranslating Final Fantasy 8 the same way as we're doing with 7 right now. I can't help but feel some things might have gotten lost in translation, y'know?

It took me about 3 playthroughs to realise Laguna was Squall's father. The only concrete proof you get is if you speak to Laguna on the airship near the end of the game, and even then its slightly obscure and theres no solid evidence.

DLPB_

  • Banned
  • *
  • Posts: 11006
    • View Profile
Re: Final Fantasy 8 - A critical reevaluation
« Reply #10 on: 2009-06-17 17:05:27 »
gotten lost in translation, y'know?

 :-D  See you have already turned into Rajin   :lol: :lol: :lol:

Terid__K

  • Guest
Re: Final Fantasy 8 - A critical reevaluation
« Reply #11 on: 2009-06-17 20:50:26 »
It took me about 3 playthroughs to realise Laguna was Squall's father.

I didn't know that at all :0


DLPB_

  • Banned
  • *
  • Posts: 11006
    • View Profile
Re: Final Fantasy 8 - A critical reevaluation
« Reply #12 on: 2009-06-17 21:19:29 »
It took me about 3 playthroughs to realise Laguna was Squall's father.

I didn't know that at all :0



yes that takes a bit of reading inbetween the lines.  As I said, a clever clever story.

MrAdults

  • Guest
Re: Final Fantasy 8 - A critical reevaluation
« Reply #13 on: 2009-06-17 22:54:39 »
I agree, FF8 was really very well-written, and conveyed a great story. Frankly, there is no such thing as "too emo". It did make Squall less easy to relate to for many people. But, in fact, that was a slight risk on Square's behalf (though not a huge one, considering Japanese youth culture at the time), and I applaud them for taking it in the name of conveying a true-to-vision story. But it didn't make Squall a bad character, at least not in the scope of FF8. Squall was certainly a believable and well-made character, and his half-hearted apathy was right on the mark for that kind of persona.

I've known people who fit the bill as well - very introverted, allowing their own fear and past trauma to dictate their rational mind, and using a false sense of apathy toward the outside world to rationalize/justify it all. Those people may not be very likeable, but understanding what's at their core, beyond their emo exterior, and hidden (or perhaps even flaunted) trauma/weakness, is important in being able to tolerate and/or empathize with them.

Perhaps, that which causes us to dislike a character for its emo persona, is invoking a little bit of Squall in us in and of itself. ;)

DLPB_

  • Banned
  • *
  • Posts: 11006
    • View Profile
Re: Final Fantasy 8 - A critical reevaluation
« Reply #14 on: 2009-06-17 22:56:00 »
I agree.  If they had made squall some dumbass vaan type character it would have annoyed me.  They chose to portray someone with mental issues and it was very well done.  I don't care if I liek a main character, as long as the story is good

Kudistos Megistos

  • Banned
  • *
  • Posts: 3929
    • View Profile
Re: Final Fantasy 8 - A critical reevaluation
« Reply #15 on: 2009-06-18 10:35:23 »
I too feel that this game doesn't get the love it deserves.

To an extent, this is understandable; Square had been on quite a strong run that had culminated in them making the most successful game in its genre ever; it would have been very hard for 8 to have lived to to expectations.

Apart from the delightfully complicated storyline (no generic save the princess, kill the evil bad guy stuff here!), it's by far the most beautiful game of the series. I don't mean beautiful for it's time either; some of the character and level designs really are breathtaking.

And a lot of the hate for it is completely misplaced. Just as many of the things people say when complaining about FF7 translate to "I'm jealous of FF7's success", many of the criticisms of FF8 that one sees lying around the intertubes translate to "I don't know what's going on". A surprising number of people seem to have finished the game without learning how to use the junction system and without learning that there are ways to get spells other than by drawing them from enemies and make criticisms of the game based on the belief that you have to spend hours running around and drawing magic.

And it has the card game, a mini-game matched only by Chocobo racing and 10's monster arena with some of the catchiest music in the series!

Hellbringer616

  • *
  • Posts: 1913
    • View Profile
Re: Final Fantasy 8 - A critical reevaluation
« Reply #16 on: 2009-06-18 15:27:53 »
Wait, you get get magic other then by drawing from enemies/draw points? o.o

DLPB_

  • Banned
  • *
  • Posts: 11006
    • View Profile
Re: Final Fantasy 8 - A critical reevaluation
« Reply #17 on: 2009-06-18 15:30:47 »
Wait, you get get magic other then by drawing from enemies/draw points? o.o

Actually you know it has been a long time since I played this game.  I am sure you could get more spells using the junctyion system to convert items to spells and so forth

yes you definately could....the GF's had abilities like that you could learn  That is how it was possible to make 99 (or was it 100) Curagas.  You had to have the item that could be easily turned into them.  It was very easy to get 99 near the start of the game.  A very simple but essential tool if you wanted to max your stats.

Curaga worked very well on the HP stat.
« Last Edit: 2009-06-18 15:34:46 by Seifer Almasy »

Kudistos Megistos

  • Banned
  • *
  • Posts: 3929
    • View Profile
Re: Final Fantasy 8 - A critical reevaluation
« Reply #18 on: 2009-06-18 17:50:05 »
the GF's had abilities like that you could learn  That is how it was possible to make 99 (or was it 100) Curagas.  You had to have the item that could be easily turned into them.  It was very easy to get 99 near the start of the game.  A very simple but essential tool if you wanted to max your stats.

Yep, that's the kind of thing I was talking about.  :-P It's actually a pretty easy game (even by FF standards) if you use the GF ability system properly. A lot of people make criticisms of FF8 that suggest they didn't.

DLPB_

  • Banned
  • *
  • Posts: 11006
    • View Profile
Re: Final Fantasy 8 - A critical reevaluation
« Reply #19 on: 2009-06-18 17:59:03 »
Althougn Omega Weapon and Ultimecias castle was difficult.  If you get rid of Holy wars , all invincibility and Quistsis' killer 1 hit move, then Omega Weapon was the daddy.  I do wish they would stop giving easy moves to stop hard bosses.

FF7:  Knights of round and Final attack+ revive, Cait Sith's The End

FF8: Holy wars, invincibility, Quistsis ultimate move

FF9:  The friends quest, atleast this was something you had to do though

FF10:  Zanmato made penance a 1 hit kill and was very likely in the European game.  However, most decent people wouldnt use that scummy attack

 :-D

offtopic but I intend to make Sephiroth and Emerald Weapon much more difficult than what they are at present by stopping these moves in their tracks.
« Last Edit: 2009-06-18 18:02:31 by Seifer Almasy »

Kudistos Megistos

  • Banned
  • *
  • Posts: 3929
    • View Profile
Re: Final Fantasy 8 - A critical reevaluation
« Reply #20 on: 2009-06-18 18:07:41 »
Omega weapon was awesome.

So was Ultimecia's castle, which I think is the most beautiful environment ever made in a video game; it really is incredible.

Hmmm, I beat Emerald weapon without any fancy tricks, but not Ruby (protip: KotR with HP absorb and mime  :wink:)

I used holy wars for Omega, but not any one hit kill moves (and wasn't it Selphie's, not Quistis's). Although the way I attacked him does remind me of one real flaw the game had: allowing meltdown-aura-Renzokuken combos.

I never bothered with Ozma; I suppose I didn't get into 9 as much as I got into the previous two.

And I'll confess to using Zanmato a few times during the Dark Aeon quest (but not every time; fighting the Dark Magus Sisters without it is brilliant  :mrgreen:)

DLPB_

  • Banned
  • *
  • Posts: 11006
    • View Profile
Re: Final Fantasy 8 - A critical reevaluation
« Reply #21 on: 2009-06-18 18:11:12 »
ahhh  yes was Selphy ;)  Quistsis had those crappy enemy skills.

Well I will be making sure you won't be getting away with those again with my small mod.  Hope you check it out when it is made and see what you think.  
« Last Edit: 2009-06-18 18:14:16 by Seifer Almasy »

yoshi314

  • *
  • Posts: 318
    • View Profile
Re: Final Fantasy 8 - A critical reevaluation
« Reply #22 on: 2009-06-23 07:54:47 »
I agree, FF8 was really very well-written, and conveyed a great story. Frankly, there is no such thing as "too emo". It did make Squall less easy to relate to for many people. But, in fact, that was a slight risk on Square's behalf (though not a huge one, considering Japanese youth culture at the time), and I applaud them for taking it in the name of conveying a true-to-vision story. But it didn't make Squall a bad character, at least not in the scope of FF8. Squall was certainly a believable and well-made character, and his half-hearted apathy was right on the mark for that kind of persona.

I've known people who fit the bill as well - very introverted, allowing their own fear and past trauma to dictate their rational mind, and using a false sense of apathy toward the outside world to rationalize/justify it all. Those people may not be very likeable, but understanding what's at their core, beyond their emo exterior, and hidden (or perhaps even flaunted) trauma/weakness, is important in being able to tolerate and/or empathize with them.

Perhaps, that which causes us to dislike a character for its emo persona, is invoking a little bit of Squall in us in and of itself. ;)
i found it really easy to relate to squall. heck, i could go as far as say i was the same.

"everyone has to take care of themselves" attitude is what describes him best. everybody has problems they have to take care of. but i do not find it humiliating/wrong to ask for/give help if necessary.

nfitc1

  • *
  • Posts: 3008
  • I just don't know what went wrong.
    • View Profile
    • WM/PrC Blog
Re: Final Fantasy 8 - A critical reevaluation
« Reply #23 on: 2009-06-27 17:43:29 »
It took me about 3 playthroughs to realise Laguna was Squall's father.

I didn't know that at all :0

It's so subtly hinted at that you shouldn't feel bad coming out of it not knowing it. There's a combination of about three short and semi-unimportant scenes and a VERY cryptic one-liner by "Ward" (I say that because it's the older one that can't talk) that are your only clues. It does make the SquallxRinoa love story much more interesting, however.
Overall, it's not a bad game and there were parts that I enjoyed, but I still think it would have made a better movie/book. Screw "Spirits Within" and make this the movie. That would have made a good movie.

It's really IX that's underrated. I loved every minute of it and love playing it over and over. The characters have more personality. I still hate X and I'm surprised that it's number 1 on that list. I gave that game all the way to the end to be redeeming and found nothing in it. I just last night decided that I needed to give XII a try. I don't know how that will turn out. Here's hoping...
TotA is number 44 and it looks like it's the number one Tales game. Not surprising, really. The others just weren't as grand overall I don't think. There were just so many good eye-popping moments in it. Akzeriuth and the Sephiroth trees and all that...

Dunan

  • Guest
Re: Final Fantasy 8 - A critical reevaluation
« Reply #24 on: 2009-07-16 16:22:53 »
That really was an interesting read.

I'd like to see a project dedicated to retranslating Final Fantasy 8 the same way as we're doing with 7 right now. I can't help but feel some things might have gotten lost in translation, y'know?

I'm playing through the game again for the first time in a few years, and I might be up for this.  I don't have the mad programming skills that some of you have, but I can translate pretty well.

It might be fun to do a reimagined version of this game with a better translation and a few other flaws fixed -- it's always bugged me that there are no hints about some of the easy-to-miss stuff.  In particular, I would have liked to know that it's OK to wander around a bit after becoming a SeeD (the rules against talking to people are off) -- you can rent a car and go up to Dollet from Timber if you like! -- and that there are two GFs on your study panel.  Oh, and Cid should just hand you the Battle Meter!  :-D