[FF7PC-98/Steam] Multiple mods and Modding Framework-The Reunion [R06f]

[Matski]

Speaking of the retranslation, has there been any recent progress with Charlie Beer's readthrough?

[DLPB_]

Yup!  Wutai done and steady progress being made.

[Rookie_One]

My anticipation is growing to epic levels now

[UGoBoom]

Spoiler: show

>when you finish snowboarding
"She died. Accept it."

no

By the way, what does the Fixed length character names option do in the installer, I tried a diff -r on the generated .txt files and nothing seems to be changed with this option.

[DLPB_]

It should really be "I'm dead.  Accept it."

I'll amend haha.

As to Fixed Length - the explanation should be in the readme.  It simply makes tidier dialogue boxes as the character name will be fixed length.

[DLPB_]

One of many examples of the corrections Charlie Beer is helping uncover.

Original game:
Staniv
“The rule is the best fighter on
   each floor will be your opponent…
   This is a five-storied pagoda,but
   the fourth floor is the highest…”{NEW}
“In other words, no one has ever
   defeated me--Master of Weaponry!”{NEW}
“You still want to try…?”
{CHOICE}Just come on!!
{CHOICE}I'll pass!

R05
Staniv
“Up to the fourth level,it is our
  custom to face those from above.
  Verily,I consider this the summit.”{NEW}
“That is to say,
  no man hath defeated me,
  the Master of Martial Arts.”{NEW}
“Wouldst thou still make
  the challenge,I wonder?”
{CHOICE}You betcha!
{CHOICE}Pass! PASS!

R06 (and R07)
Staniv
“Up to the fourth level,it is our
tradition that a Master bear
witness to the battle below.”{NEW}
“Verily,this should be
considered the summit.”{NEW}
“That is to say,
no man hath defeated me—
the Master of Martial Arts.”{NEW}
“Wouldst thou still make
the challenge,I wonder?”
{CHOICE}You betcha!
{CHOICE}Pass! PASS!

Along with grammar fixes and better localization, the retranslation in general looking very good.

[trostboot]

What's with the lack of spaces after commas, if I may ask?

[DLPB_]

I've made it so the game adds it - to save a character in the main menu, where space and char limit is a big factor. 

[DLPB_]

I've finally managed to make that flow OK as a clue to the bell you need to ring - which is what the Japanese does. I've had to cheat a bit.

Original game and R05 both miss it.

Charlie Beer:

"lit. “You want your materia?
  Then go find it yourself!”{NEW}
“And to find materia, you gotta be ready use your [kane (money/bell)]""{NEW}
“Heh,heh.
  [kane]. Get it?”

the expression she's using in Japanese is basically ""money talks"", ""To find materia, you gotta make money/bells talk."". I think the idea is that shes hinting that she'll give it back if they bribe her. Which is why she repeats ""kane"". but through this she ends up giving away the hiding spot.

""Steel"" is a bit too farfetched a clue, the ""bell"" really has to be in there.

{YUFFIE}
“You want your materia?
  Then go find it yourself!”{NEW}
“But, hey... I doubt the hiding place will ever ring a bell for you.”{NEW}
“Heh,heh.
  Ring a bell... classic.”"

Original English game:

{YUFFIE}
“The Materia's mine!
   Tough!”
------------------------------
{YUFFIE}
“You want your Materia?
   Then go find it yourself!”{NEW}
“Yeah that's right.
   And when you're looking for
   the Materia, remember you gotta steel it.”{NEW}
“Heh heh…
   Steel…steel! Get it?”
------------------------------
{YUFFIE}
“C'ya!!”

R05:

{YUFFIE}
“The materia’s mine…
  Tough luck.”
{YUFFIE}
“You want your materia?
  Then go find it yourself!”
{NEW PAGE}
“Yeah,that’s right.
  And when you’re looking for
  the materia,remember that
  you’ve gotta ‘steel’ it.”
{NEW PAGE}
“Heh,heh.
  Steel. Get it?”

{YUFFIE}
“See ya!”

Final:

{YUFFIE}
“The materia’s mine…
  Tough luck.”
------------------------------
{YUFFIE}
“You want your materia?
  Then you’ll have to find me,won’t you?
  Now,that rings a bell…”{NEW}
“Heh,heh.  I could give you suckers
  100 clues like that one and you’d still
  never work it out.”
------------------------------
{YUFFIE}
“Buh byyye!”

[obesebear]

If you're taking liberties, I think saying "100 clues like that one" is a bit too on the nose.  Something like "100 more clues" doesn't draw as much attention to the clue itself.

[DLPB_]

If you don't use "that one" then it doesn't follow at all for the player that it's even a clue - plus the original English seems to heavily imply there is a clue also.  I think it's meant to be utterly obvious or you get stuck in Wutai for ages - like many players did in the original game (without that clue, it's almost a game breaker for a lot of people).  I enjoyed hunting for Yuffie with no clue to go on - but the original staff wanted you to get it. 

I'll see what Charlie Beer thinks is best - because "Ring a bell...  classic" or something can also work.  But my feeling is the original staff want it to be obvious.

[ouchie0kids]

sorry if this has been asked before, but is the rename for cover materia to protect materia intentional and the menu option from order to form intentional and is there anyway to undo the changes? it took me a while to figure out what it was to change the rows, for the menu it would be better to us either column, row or it original wording order, also phoenix down is changed to phoenix tail. there is most likely others that I've now come across yet, but the rewording also makes it hard to follow game guides for those that like to collect everything.

ok, i found that the phoenix down rename can be sorted by using the series canon option, but I can't find a way to change the form back to order and protect materia back to cover materia

[DLPB_]

There isn't an option. This is a retranslation project.

You'll have to use the tools on this forum to do it manually.

[ouchie0kids]

what exactly does a retranslation project entail? also i believe the use of form for sorting out the character positions is translated wrongly, also sadly i don't have the confidence to trial and error by myself so that i can fix the language translations.

[Caledor]

You can't reply in a retranslation project that something is "translated wrongly" without saying why or how. It just sounds like a baseless complain to something you don't like.

[ouchie0kids]

it the english defination of form, it has nothing to do with what the effect is in game, to make it correct, you'd need to change form to formation

[DLPB_]

what exactly does a retranslation project entail? also i believe the use of form for sorting out the character positions is translated wrongly, also sadly i don't have the confidence to trial and error by myself so that i can fix the language translations.

First post.

http://forums.qhimm.com/index.php?topic=14914.msg209227#msg209227

[ouchie0kids]

don't mean to be rude but the Japanese to English needs to be double checked for the translations, specially as it states accurate translation which it isn't, a quick double check using google translator gives you many options and definition of what each possible translation can mean, as i read what i am typing i feel like a jackass, but when stating accurate and professional with wrong wording like that i can't help but mention it.

[DLPB_]

Yes, it is accurate.

No, you haven't read the main post nor the Reunion Database.

No, I am not changing everything and superseding 2 Japanese speakers [actually, 4 when it comes to the retranslation of items] and myself just because you're unhappy with certain changes.

And, finally, Google Translate?  Honestly.    By your logic, Tifa still owns a shop.

I've told you what your option is.

And if anyone is wondering why I tackled this initially in the way I did - the answer is that I saw this endgame coming from the first sentence.

[ouchie0kids]

please explain to me how form is accurate in that usage? in it verb sense and noun when converted to English it is wrong.

just so you know a marriage registration is a form, the positioning of characters on a shogi board, checkers or chess is a formation, the context for form is incorrect, i'm a native British speaker feel free to get a second opinion by a native American speaker, all in all, from what i have played of the mod it is amazing work, I'm looking forward to the final product and i did read the first page i even hunted down the original forum post for beacause and downloaded that version read the text file that was in that to find out that the series canon effects the items names.
I also only mentioned the materia naming for cover being changed to protect in case it was a over look and missed as protect in previous games of final fantasy reduced physical damage, whilst cover took damage in place of another character, which has been the case since final fantasy 3 onwards, which i would of classed as a series canon by now for naming sense

[bigsassy]

Rudeness of ouchie0kids aside, I think the entry for "form" does deserve a little conversation.  And since it's highlighted in green, that's ok right?

With all due respect (i.e. your years of work on this mod and the expertise in your team), here are my thoughts:

"Formation" is MUCH better than "Order"
"Order" is marginally better than the shortened version "Form"

Speaking as an end-user, if I see "Formation" in the menu I intuitively know I'm adjusting the formation of my characters.  The word by itself perfectly describes what the menu item does. it's reasonable to think anything related to my team's formation happens with this menu item.

Now the original word "Order" is more vague to me.  What am I changing the order of?  Or am I ordering (i.e. commanding) something?  Once you select the "Order" menu item, the cursor goes to the characters which leaves you thinking "Oh, I guess I can change the order of my characters".  But even at that point you have no way of knowing you can change characters to the front or back row, because the word "Order" relates to the sequential order of things (1,2,3).

But "Form" is even more vague.  I don't see the word "Form" and immediately think "Oh, that's the shortened version of Formation".  And the english word "Form" does not make me think of anything related to managing the formation of my team.  If I selected the menu item for "Form" and it landed on a character I'd think "Ok, I guess I can now fill out some kind of form for Cloud if I select him?"

tl;dr - "Formation" is good, but "Form" may not be the best way to shorten it. I'm not saying to keep the original word "Order", but maybe there's a better translation here that also fits in the menu?

[UpRisen]

Form is generally used to reference shape or layout "form the clay, THIS ISN'T EVEN MY FINAL FORM, Form up maggots!"

Combine that with critical thinking of "there is no way that this option makes me fill out paper work in the menu" and the use of Form naturally makes sense from a language choice. It means exactly what the option does in game.
Formation would be more clear, but that would stretch the size of the menu box which would mess up other part and thinking about, or just pressing the button, would instantly allow you to understand what the option does.

And before anyone tries to use the "first time player" counter argument for clarity it is irrelevant in this case as they would not know the actual function of it in either case and therefore have no impact on their play experience.

[bigsassy]

Combine that with critical thinking of "there is no way that this option makes me fill out paper work in the menu"...

Ok, fair point

BUT!

Form is generally used to reference shape or layout "form the clay, THIS ISN'T EVEN MY FINAL FORM, Form up maggots!"

Your first two examples implies "Form" is generally used to change a single character, as opposed to your entire team.  And I think other people would think the same thing (e.g. "What's 'Form' do?  Oh, now cloud is selected.  CAN I CHANGE CLOUD TO HIS FINAL FORM!?").  Ok, all my examples are terrible, but my point is that "Form" doesn't communicate you're performing an action on the team.

But I agree with you that pressing the button would allow anyone to very quickly understand the purpose of the menu item.  "Form" works fine.  And if "Formation" fit we wouldn't be having this conversation.  But I'm not sure the shortened version (i.e. "Form") is a better name for the menu option than "Order".

Anyway, that's my two cents.  I'm going to stop https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/bikeshedding now and get back to lurking...

[ouchie0kids]

9 years in the making of the mod is a very well deserved respect and i apologise that i came a cross as rude, It was never my intention, It just English language is a pain, i'm going to be honest, only reason i can read now is because of this game, i had no interest in letters they just looked like a load of scribble on paper when i was younger, the art and story of what was going on in final fantasy i wanted to know what the characters were saying. so yeah i can guess i was defensive on the subject, I also just got done reading the interview Burke did, which was very enlightening.

also yes that is correct UpRising, but as you stated formation is a very long word, which is why i believe they chose to go with order when they ported it in English, as Form has multiple meanings it can cause trouble for those that don't know English very well, but i also believe the choice of picking order was to make translating it to other countries slightly easier, as i believe the game was translated from Japanese to English, then from English to German, French etc

also thank you bigsassy for what you have put, you explained things much better then i could ever do so is very helpful for me

[LordUrQuan]

Formation > Order > Form

I haven't done any hacking on FF7, but living next door to Demiforce while he was working on FF2j, one of the things that repeatedly came up (usually with him bursting through my dorm room door ala Kramer on "Seinfeld") was character space limitations getting in the way.  Trying to faithfully translate something like "Death Knight" which required only three or four kanji simply didn't work.  The same issue almost certainly plays a role here... "Materia" is seven characters, and is the widest option on the menu.  Widening that block to fit "Formation" (nine characters) would probably start crowding out the level and limit bars, so then it becomes a question of how to shorten.  Being an adventure/combat game, the term "Order" makes me think "Order of Battle," making it a fitting option.  "Form" on the other hand conjures up images of Vincent's various limit breaks.

Google translate

Hah!  Wifey (who is not a native English speaker) and I often amuse ourselves with its feeble attempts at idiomatic speech.