Yes, kinda, now very low
Not gonna lie while Im generally favorable towards everything regarding the remake up to this point, I have to say the absurd changes and "plot twists" revealed in the final trailer and by people who already played it are fcking stupid, so that definitely put a relatively big dampener on it.
Not the fact that they changed the original story and werent 100% faithful to it, which is something i never cared about, but the time travel/alternative timeline/guardian of fate strawberries is something even i deem as borderline retarded an most definitely cringe...wtf?
Gameplay and visuals still look fantastic and im still very much looking forward to it but yeah not gonna lie most recent news I would personally qualify as purely negative for me :(
*edit* also heard (although mayb "understandable" since its only within midgard) that despite the announced apparent "significant" endgame content, there are no real superbosses which have always been a major part of enjoyment from ff games for me, that thats also super disappointing, in fact almost as big of a dampener for me personally as the braindead story changes.
Oh and the fact that the "60 hour main story" is more like 25, although expected considering how companies usually heavily oversell the expected playtimes, is also kinda underwhelming.
What a shame ;/
It's funny (or rather, sad) how my expectations have declined over the years, not just regarding the FF7 remake, but Square Enix in general.
.:-o
Alright, so this game is not at all what was expected after reading some of the early leaks, and the marketing has been completely deceptive. Massive spoilers, of course.Spoiler: show
:-D :-D :-D :-D :-D Hahahaha tell me it's a late April fools? Sounds like another bad Terminator movie.
fern me, I shouldn't have read that. If it's true though, sounds dope as hell. I'm sure crybabies will still moan about it not being a 1:1 copy of the original though. Entertaining tears are sure to follow.
No offense.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=gEXzyWToyz0
This video explains what happened during development on this “Remake” perfectly. LOL. Glad to see fans making their voices heard. Square-Enix can’t be allowed to get away with this.
Must watch - genuinely hilarious for all the wrong reasons. Also, sounds nothing like Hojo or an intellectual.Spoiler: show
Spoiler: show
:-D :-D :-D :-D :-D Hahahaha tell me it's a late April fools? Sounds like another bad Terminator movie.
Alright, so this game is not at all what was expected after reading some of the early leaks, and the marketing has been completely deceptive. Massive spoilers, of course.Spoiler: show
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=cz0nHCm6nuw&t=607s (https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=cz0nHCm6nuw&t=607s)
This review of the “Remake” is spot on with everything that is presented. Make sure to support this guy and share your thoughts on the video. I wonder if the fan base all comes together to let Square know that this is NOT what we as fans wanted if they will cave and take all this stupid stuff out via a update or something and just go back to the original story? I think it’s a strong possibility honestly if the backlash is great enough.
His face is also wrong.
What's wrong with your faaaaaaace!
i actually hate the Cloud model as well, looks more like Tidus than Cloud IMO
but the sephiroth one is even worse, i feel like i could bitchslap that dude to the ground, and i'm supposed to believe he can blow up a planet?
Sephiroth who is all about being this elite soldier that no-one can defeat, should not be feminine.
Back in high school i literally couldn't think of a more bad-ass character in a videogame. Most of it was due to the hairstyle seen in the picture above.
In the Remake he has a woman's hairstyle. The coolness is gone.. It's like realistic isn't always good.
This is not my battle as I have no intention to buy the game, but one obvious weakness of making the game more realistic is that character acting stands out much more, and from the what I have seen of the trailers it can be atrocious: Barret's histrionics are so damned awful...
I will say though that, contrary to DPLB, I do find Aerith very beautiful and not slutish in any way, shape or form.
i'm kinda surprised they didnt just say fuck it with aeris and put short shorts on her like they did with Yuna
Point about Aerith is she isn't meant to be hot - she's meant to be cute, innocent, pure. That's whole point of that love triangle - Tifa and Aerith are opposites. Her longer dress was deliberately to contrast with Tifa's for example (developer interview from '90s).
Spoiler: show
To mods: Why do we need to use spoilers when the actual subject has SPOILERS?
Attention, another spoiler coming up! I just read on some other forum that:
Honestly, what on earth were they smoking when they made up stuff like this?
Did you even play the original?
Cause Shines 100% blows up reactor 5 as well as the pillar that supports sector 7.
The first explosion is hinted at being caused by Shinra as well by the very same scene you mentioned...
, I've played the original more times than I can count over the past 22 years.
Love it how there's no evidence of Shinra actively blowing up Reactor 5 (other than just letting Avalanche's bomb go off) yet you act like you're enlightened.
And on a side note, it wouldn't make any sense for Shinra to blow up the reactors themselves. They are ruthless, yes, but like any company their prime objective is earning money, and as an electric power company the reactors are their main source of income. If they wanted to denounce Avalanche as evil-doers, they could've easily done so in other ways. From a business point of view, demolishing your own production is devoid of all logic. (And I'm actually surprised that Nomura, who is also among the leadership of a big company, seemingly doesn't understand that.)
also using flawed original English translation to make a point about original story prob isn't a good idea
s7 convo is about the pillar which shinra do deliberately blow up to kill avalanche.
Jessie was surprised her bomb caused such a massive explosion. *cough cough*. Yet the 2nd bomb causes exactly the same kind of explosion.
Shinra would never.
your translation work, regardless of the time you invested and how good it might be, never was and never will be... "original". The game is what the game is.
First reactor has a massive explosion from the top, while the flames cover up the bridge completely.
Original is the japanese. Anything else is prone to errors. Anyone using that even more so. Chinese whispers/telephone game.
Yes. European, American, Australian, African players all around the world are going back and looking at the Japanese release for references whenever they think of Final Fantasy 7.
If you build up a conjecture from a translation mistake, and someone shows proof of that mistake, what do you do? you keep stubbornly clinging to it? Again, I didn't say you should. I said you're exposing yourself to a risk. This is the second time in a row you twist my words, try to be more careful.
The original English PSX version of VII had Zeng die and tifa's bar was a shop. Should we keep those too?
The story is the Japanese source from 1996. Nothing else. None of the retcons. None of the material afterwards. And certainly not a totally flawed English translation from 1997.
It doesn't matter if god played it - the story is what the original writers intended - not what a localizer on a tight deadline accidentally made happen.
It's not valid at all. And certainly not when you're using that flawed translation to then explain a title 20 years later by a totally different localization team again working from a new Japanese script. You're not making any sense.
I'm open to changing my mind. Where is that "proof" though? Is there a major translation mistake in the two quotes I posted earlier? Please do share if so.
Again, not saying Shinra did but to claim people have to somehow be on drugs to come up with that is pretty sad. It's an absolute possibility.
I'm open to changing my mind. Where is that "proof" though?
I'm not sure what you mean by "keep" but they should absolutely be taken into account. That's how 99.9% of the world played the game. It's kind of a big deal, you know?This is the most frequent argument brought up against any retranslation. Everyone is entitled to have an opinion like this is, so i'll just share mine: I don't care. If whatever percentile of the world has been lied to and i can amend, i'll do it. And i'm not talking about name transliterations or meaningless stuff like that, but big character personality and plot altering mistakes.
It doesn't matter if god played it - the story is what the original writers intended - not what a localizer on a tight deadline accidentally made happen.
But you're arguing FF7r is status quo and you have no leg to stand on. Or pillar.
This remake retcons utterly huge parts of the original story. That isn't a statement of opinion.
If there are conflicts in interpretations, I say go for the most reasonable one. A LOT of things are possible, or, not impossible.
It is not impossible for Shinra to blow up the reactor(s) themselves, but the most reasonable interpretation, imo, is that Shinra let Avalanche blow up r5 after r1.
If they retcon Shinra to being the ones who 100% certainly blew up the reactors, it's not necessarily a bad retcon. But, I dunno, did Han shoot first? We can't have the good guys do bad stuff now, can we?
Anyway, it's not technically a retcon if this is a brand-new story.
But if it is indeed a sequel, then it's 100% retcon territory.
This is EXACTLY smth that a freaking graphics designer and character artist like Nomura just doesn't get: The old FFs characters were partly so iconic because they were FANTASY characters and not real ppl. They looked half like anime characters at best and even the ones of the Super Nintendo games looked bad ass because you were not given every single detail and pixel of a man/woman: You were given some sort of a mantle(sprites on the SNES and polygon models on the PS) that had little detail to it and yes that was the best one could produce in those days, however a completely forgotten positive side effect of those games was that by that everybody playing this game could INTERPRET this characters details in his own mind and thus easier project himself into a character, a world and live it through in ones mind and it became his own personal fantasy. And that was the magic of Final Fantasy.
That doesn't mean that bad graphics is good and newer suck always or anything but at least in a Final Fantasy game I expect some little space for my own fantasy, some space for my interpretation of things and not another mans 4k HD vision of every pixel forced into my head.
The best and closest approximation of FF7 characters (that I am sure everybody would have liked btw) is the artwork of the manuals and the models of the FMV sequences. Those are the characters as we got to know them and they will be like that forever. With todays methods you can make them look pretty much exactly like that in a smooth way and everybody would be happy....except for Mr. Nomura
hahaha- true story too! They couldn't see up it though, hence the white panties became black.
Point about Aerith is she isn't meant to be hot - she's meant to be cute, innocent, pure. That's whole point of that love triangle - Tifa and Aerith are opposites. Her longer dress was deliberately to contrast with Tifa's for example (developer interview from '90s).
It doesn't matter if god played it - the story is what the original writers intended - not what a localizer on a tight deadline accidentally made happen.
Now then; If this game WEREN'T released as a FF7 remake (if Nomura could go back in time and release a completely reskined version with names and locations being different) would everyone be hating on it? Objectively no. This game is not poorly made (at least it hasn't been exposed for being poorly made yet). It's the authors telling us to accept THEIR extension of an already established universe that people are losing their minds over.
The writing itself is actually very appealing in the remake. They flesh out the characters considerably and the scene to scene dialog is much better for the most part. Barret, Aerith and Red XIII really shine. One of my complaints about the original has always been that Aerith has like 50 lines of dialog in total and basically just tags along silently after you rescue her at the end of Midgar and until the events of the Temple of the Ancients and Forgotten City, then the game wants me to care about her dying. I never did, even as a kid. The character interactions were too shallow to develop any kind of bond and this is primarily what I was hoping the remake would rectify.Spoiler: show
Also things like:Spoiler: show
Also, I don't think many have considered thatSpoiler: show
I have some criticism after spending 40 something hours with the game that isn't just screeching for the sake of screeching:Spoiler: show
Also I disagree about the voice acting and script. It's atrocious high school level writing and acting. Objectively poor.
Objectively poor? That is just not true now is it champ? Writing is some of the best Square has done in years and the voice acting is stellar, now that is my opinion so you can disagree but it is by no means objectively poor. You always seem to want to moan about something though. Got it a week early and just completed it. Fantastic game. I knew you fools would be moaning though. Stick with the mods, your attachment to the original curbs any meaningful critique.
Objectively poor? That is just not true now is it champ? Writing is some of the best Square has done in years and the voice acting is stellar, now that is my opinion so you can disagree but it is by no means objectively poor.
You always seem to want to moan about something though. Got it a week early and just completed it. Fantastic game. I knew you fools would be moaning though. Stick with the mods, your attachment to the original curbs any meaningful critique.
As for you, why do you post here if you "knew we would be moaning"? Seems irrational to me, you're trying to defend smth that on this forum will never be accepted by the majority of regular posters
You wait for the user reviews... champ!
160 negative already for a game hyped this much.
...</shemlesspromoting>
In the end, how you feel, and how it is supposed to be perceived, doesn't really matter. But the fact remains that SE are manipulative in their marketing by pushing their product in a certain way.
This is how the story was intended to be told from the start.
It would be a waste not to make it (FF7R) action oriented.
FFs have always been action games at heart.
You can finally experience the true FF7 story.
Making the remake an action game stays true to the FF7 spirit.
It'll probably settle somewhere between 7-8 I'm guessing. Right now it's the extreme ends that shows, mostly extreme fanboys who rates; hardly a reliable way to measure the "true" score. I've even seen some rate it 0 or 10 just to even out the filed, lol.
I'm not triggered; I'm fascinated and amused. It's really a good look at social compliance.
Nobody’s rating should matter to you except for your own. If anything, it’ll offer extra insight, but it’s definitely not meant to persuade you or others to think differently. Learn that and you’ll avoid getting worked up over these “discussion” threads.
-Ric- Your inflammatory responses to other peoples posts are bordering on a warning. Check yourself before I have to.
Its not what you say its how you say it.
Its not what you say its how you say it.
I mean, we got socially awkward, on the spectrum, basement virgins debating if Aerith is innocent or slutty... WTF!
And sure, Sephiroth is a transgender super soldier far less manly than y'all. You extremely macho folks. :roll:
This thread is a hilarious pool of tears. And the salt... Oh my. I love it.
Stay triggered my friends, stay triggered.
Suppose I had responded: "I imagine the sense of humor varies. Personally I find it hilarious that a eunuch frog in a cape, that does not even rise to the indignity of being a basement wanker, is triggered by watching others getting triggered."
I have been in forums where it is a real jungle, and I dished it as much as I took.
I am trying to tone down my natural aggressiveness.
Oh well. We all love a trier eh. Please do better though.
It is hard to disagree with you here, and yet, for all its poorness, it is still infinitely wittier than your puerile schoolyard taunting.
I'm on chapter 9, 15 hours in and loving it, even the changes I've seen so far. A few of the music tracks are interesting remixes, like the Ska/hip hop mix at the start of chapter 9.
Really? So let us take this gem:
Suppose I had responded: "I imagine the sense of humor varies. Personally I find it hilarious that a eunuch frog in a cape, that does not even rise to the indignity of being a basement wanker, is triggered by watching others getting triggered." The problem would be the tone or the content?
Look, I have no problems with insults flying and exploding everywhere. I have been in forums where it is a real jungle, and I dished it as much as I took. I am a big boy, so it is no skin off my back. At the same time -- and this is a purely personal reflection -- I am trying to tone down my natural aggressiveness to better reflect what I actually believe in, but let's not paper over it calling it "the way you said" when of course there were real insults.
Jk game's awesome better than FF15 too imo
Nobody’s rating should matter to you except for your own. If anything, it’ll offer extra insight, but it’s definitely not meant to persuade you or others to think differently. Learn that and you’ll avoid getting worked up over these “discussion” threads.I agree. You should form your own opinions based on your own experiences. The people running this hate campaign for the remake in here haven't even played the game themselves and are basing their opinions on seeing a few minutes worth of footage of a 40+ hour game and are desperately searching for confirmation bias that supports their views, something befitting a 12 year old, not grown men who consider themselves to be intellectuals. It doesn't have to be one extreme or the other. Let's not act like children.
The people running this hate campaign for the remake in here haven't even played the game themselves and are basing their opinions on seeing a few minutes worth of footage of a 40+ hour game and are desperately searching for confirmation bias that supports their views, something befitting a 12 year old, not grown men who consider themselves to be intellectuals. It doesn't have to be one extreme or the other. Let's not act like children.
So first you say only respect your own opinion and then you go on shitting on everybody who hates this game calling them 12 year olds? ::)Actually, your reading comprehension has failed you. I'm not "shitting on everybody who hates this game," I'm "shitting" on people like you specifically whose opinions are based solely on watching a handful of minutes worth of footage and are now on a warpath, all while believing they're voicing an objective truth and that they should be taken seriously in the slightest. THAT is what makes you come off as children. I assume all of us with older accounts are in our 30s at this point, which makes this type of behavior even harder to believe. This is what I expect to see on the first page of /v/, not an old school FF community where I assume most have an IQ that exceeds two digits.
Why would we have to spend tons of money for smth we know we don't like? And as far as I remember none of us tried to even expertly criticize detailed things we would only know after playing the game. We criticize first and foremost that its not a Remake, its a strawberries on the originals story and every major plot event and that is fact, or would you argue one has to play it to know that when its all right there in the cutscenes? Certainly not. And that is not what we expected or wanted. So why on earth is criticism not justified in that regard?You've described the game as a dull action game that's just flashy and devoid of depth multiple times now, so your expert opinion has gone beyond just criticizing the story changes, which you've also not done your research on as displayed multiple times in this thread. You've concluded that the script itself (dialog, character interactions) and the character development is bad which you would have absolutely no knowledge of from watching a handful of cut cenes out of context from the tail end of a 40 hour game. Do you see why I think you're being silly and why anyone with a functional brain can't take this seriously?
Also it is well known that the combat system is action based, not ATB like in the original. This is known for years now. If ppl (like us) don't like these things in general or at least not in a Final Fantasy, considering this was not like this in the original, then again criticism is justified.Just because something isn't your cup of tea doesn't make it objectively bad like you're claiming. There's good action-based combat and there's bad action-based combat. The combat in 7R is far from bad, despite the criticism I wrote in a previous post. It's certainly more in-depth than the original, as any action-based game inherently is by requiring at least a slight degree of skill and interaction to succeed. The original game certainly doesn't have any gameplay depth (it's flashy and fast-paced, but shallow and fun), so I'm not sure why you're even voicing this (baseless) complaint.
Btw with about the same validity could we say that the ppl spending 60+ bucks on this game and like that strawberries are 12 year olds, not grown men who expect a game to have actual thought through design, balance, story-telling, character development, etc.See, there you go again making assumptions beyond your reach. If anything, this paragraph reinforces my original point. I also don't follow your reasoning in the slightest, and this makes the below quote even more ridiculous on your part.
That you like this game is good for you but stop acting so high and mighty and condescending towards ppl that don't. Their opinion is just as valid as yours and is not based on things they do not know as all aspects that were criticized are directly there in the game, not made up or exaggerated. There is time travel, there is characters that don't die but should have, there is matrix like drama scenes that are just over the top you can watch them on youtube, there is major flaws in that new story that just doesn't make any kind of sense with the original. It's all there and wasn't made up by us. It was made up by Nomura.Yes, I'm the one being "high and mighty and condescending towards others", not the guy who's generalized every single person who doesn't share his opinion that 7R is a bad game. What was it you said, that we're all from that "Game of Thrones generation" and just swallow anything that's flashy and lacking in depth? Next-level self-awareness you have there.
If any, this is the forum of highest quality reviews and opinions of Final Fantasy games and RPGs in general. These are ppl that spent their life modding these games, playing them hundreds of times over and over again, discovering new stuff, and just thinking about these games and its characters, their reason to be and say smth, their behaviour in certain occasions more than anybody else in the world. And certainly more than the devs.What you're referring to is an echo chamber, and I'm sure most wouldn't appreciate being generalized or spoken for. What you're really saying is that certain people here are stuck in the past and hostile toward change. That doesn't sound like someone whose opinions you should value above more reasonable and level-headed individuals. As far as I can tell, there are multiple reasonable users here who are capable of thinking for themselves without clinging to one extreme or the other mindlessly. Are these people not part of this holy community of knowledgeable FF fans?
Todays game design consists mostly of graphics and I can tell you because this eats most of the programming work as it is BY FAR the most complex and tedious part when programming a game(as smbd with a degree in just that department of computer science you can take my word). The maths and work behind Ray tracing, multiple reflections, real time animations is OUTRAGEOUS. That's why the companies need most and their best ppl to work on that. And then it's natural that there is just not much personel left for actual story-writing and thinking these things through. Also at some point when you spent months/years until the animations look so real HD like in FF7R then your investors wanna see results and finally publish smth and make money. And what can you impress them most with at a press conference? Right, it's GRAPHICS because that's what every fat business idiot can see and judge wether it's good or not. That's what makes money and keeps companies alive. Sadly. This explains the strictly monotonous downward curve of stories and the strictly monotonous upward curve of graphics in games in the last 20 years. Ppl growing up with that or the ones that just weren't touched so emotionally by the RPGs of the 90s and early 2000s might not care and get used to the new era of gaming but others, like many in here, cannot.Wow, it's almost like there are dedicated and specialized staff members who handle different aspects of development or something. You're also generalizing again, or under the impression that AAA development is all there is to the medium, or that every case is the same. Either way, it has nothing to do with the quality of writing unless you're implying that the programmers, animators, 3D artists and various game designers are too busy with their jobs to help write the script, which is pants-on-head retarded.
And if after all these years a company promises an HD remake of the most iconic game in video game history that has touched us more than any other game, and the outcome is tons of stuff completely made up, probably made up on the spot because it just looks cool in a scene, altered story scripts and what not then yes, then we do not like this game and want to talk to others about this that feel the same. That is why we post here and we're entitled to. If you think the majority here are 12 year olds that just hate because they like hating...then why would you wanna post here? You don't seem attached to the forum in any way so why care? It seemed to be so important to just insult a lot of ppl here that you needed to do it......Do you see any of us going to forums/reviews of ppl where the majority likes the game and shitting on it? I for myself do not do that.They did call it a remake, and it is very faithful (character development, chain of events, locations, enemy design, overall aesthetic and on) up until the end of the game, but I called it deceptive marketing in my very first post. Either way, games - even remakes - should be judged on their own merits, and saying that FF7R is objectively bad in any regard is insincere and obviously fueled by an agenda, especially when coming from holier-than-thou observers.
your reading comprehension has failed you
you're being silly
pants-on-head retarded.
Are you implying that I'm only here to insult someone?
It's not faithful at all. Please stop pretending that these fate creatures were in the original - or that major story points haven't been changed well before the end of Part 1. They have. Again - that is a fact. It isn't faithful on any measurable scale. Not the battle system, not the art, not the style, not the script, not the story.Please stop pretending that you read a single thing I said and that you didn't just get triggered by that keyword before continuing to spew your usual drivel in typical toxic DLPB manner. That post refers to you just as much as the other guy. Like I said, up until the ending, the events can be summarized in exactly the same way as the original game.
And the end of part 1 departing so massively is the end of any and all arguments. No fan wanted what they've done. No fan asked for it. And certainly no-one expected what they've done. It's not a remake - it's been falsely advertised and it's actually probably illegal what Square-Enix have done.
I could... respond in detail to this absolutely ridiculous post again but why would I....it all started with this "Ric" flaming Kefka who pointed out an obvious RIDICULOUS plot twist that not even a 10 year old would write. And when ppl come around so condescending and insulting it is natural to receive that back in their face.Yeah, no, that's not how an argument works. Your points aren't hard to understand, just incredibly silly and clearly driven by an agenda and inherent bias. Instead of "responding in detail," you chose to take "insults" out of context and proceeded to tell me to "stfu."
My post is understood by those who do and not by those who don't. Period. No further point in argueing with ppl that just cannot face reality.
Btw your post again is full of personal insults while mine was written with a "one could argue" style of writing that doesn't head on attack ppl.
So yes, you are solely flaming and insulting right now, that is also a fact. Now stfu pls.
Yes cuz unlike you I dont feel the need of forcing my opinion on others while insulting them(good strategy btw)Don't you find that incredibly ironic?
Your ATB gauge charges constantly and is sped up by attacking. You also have various materia to help speed up ATB, and spells like Haste greatly improve the charge rate. Distance management isn't an issue in the game with a few exceptions. Each melee character has a basic attack that closes the distance when you're far away, and targeting flying enemies changes your standard attacks into an aerial combo. There are a few cases of enemies flying out of bounds, like high up in the Sector 7 Ruins and only Barret and Aerith can hit them with regular attacks while the rest have to use magic or items.Spoiler: show
Is that true? Yes. Or No. Because if Yes - that's another reason why someone like me would not like this game. Yes. or No.
People are allowed to like what they want. People are allowed to dislike what they want. No one is wrong. Even if you disagree with each other's preferences. It is ALL subjective.100%. I'm not saying it's not allowed to dislike the game, I'm saying it's incredibly stupid to formulate an opinion if your sole experience with it is watching a few minutes of footage somewhere, especially drawing conclusions like the entire script being "objectively bad." That's just agenda driven nonsense, not an opinion to be taken seriously. Even how one perceives the events at the end of the game is subjective. Was it what I wanted? No, I wanted things to play out differently, but they could've gone in a different direction. Either way, I'll play the next part because I overall enjoyed the gameplay and character interactions.
It's really not all subjective. Liking and disliking is. Flaws with this remake are not.Only the naming convention is a flaw since it's clearly not a remake. The changes are subjective, not objective flaws, and if you think they are, that's an opinion.
Distance management isn't an issue in the game with a few exceptions. Each melee character has a basic attack that closes the distance when you're far away, and targeting flying enemies changes your standard attacks into an aerial combo
This subjective excuse creeps into every single debate and every time I call nonsense on it because it is.
It's not an opinion to state there is bad storytelling, bad voice acting, bad pacing, and crappy fetch quests. These can and are being demonstrated. This subjective excuse creeps into every single debate and every time I call nonsense on it because it is. If Cloud turned into an alien dung beetle and entered Sephiroth's brain through his ear and then proceeded to control Sephiroth from that point on - it's objectively poor storytelling. It doesn't matter what word you give to it or this remake - it's lowbrow crap. If we go by the logic that "opinons are all equal" then what I've just said is every bit as valid as a believable story. You can't honestly with a straight face think that's the case.It absolutely is an opinion to state that the voice acting is bad, especially in this case. You must have very little experience with voice acted media as a whole if this is something you sincerely believe. Pacing is also subjective and often involves world building at the expense of the plot slowing down. Whether you enjoy that or not is based on how immersed you are in the setting, and of course, this entire point hinges on actually playing the game and experiencing it for yourself. Just because you dislike the plot device used at the end of the game doesn't necessarily make it bad, and certainly not objectively so. I agree that the quests are objectively terrible, but that's where it ends.
Also, opinions are weighted - ad often based on facts and observable realities. Shouting the word opinion is not a valid counterargument.
Spoiler: show
Is that true? Yes. Or No. Because if Yes - that's another reason why someone like me would not like this game. Yes. or No.
For example just a thing like this(automatic z-targeting and gap closing auto attacks) are things that I do not find attractive in a game (its like being held by the hand and extremely limits the freedom too much for my taste),
Don't you find that incredibly ironic?
Yes, good thing that in the original you have to just spam the ok button.
and never having cared for the original. =)
This thread has gone to crap. A bunch of people crapping on the game against a bunch of people that find the game enjoyable.
Lets lynch this man. I have torches and 1 pitch fork.
i nonetheless enjoyed it for what it was for me, more of the ff formula i came to love with ff6 :P
if it has, you can thank yourself for being a contributor
there are about 5 posts hanging around this forum from you that calls someone (usually DLPB...) "special" or "on the spectrum" (i'd be more than happy to link them all if you'd like)
your posts pour fuel into the fire almost every time
Signed
FF6 is the ultimate proof that graphics should take a back seat to script, gameplay, music, etc
games on the SNES stand the test of time
FF6 is the ultimate proof that graphics should take a back seat to script, gameplay, music, etc
games on the SNES stand the test of time
Opinion vs fact. Objective vs subjective. Like vs dislike.
It's all fine in a DISCUSSION. But do not, I repeat, DO NOT result to personal insults for justifying your arguments. It's like sl1982 said, "It's not what you say but how you say it." We all need to be above that kind of behavior and act like the civil adults we are.
If the personal insults continue, don't instigate it by responding with your own insults. Use the report button and be on your way. The Rules for these forums are clear. Consider this everyone's freebie warning.
I can see why people would love or hate both systems. After watching my friend playthrough the remake on a stream, the combat is certainly not as hack and slashy as it looks. You have to make a lot of mid-combat choices. And if you don't have a plan, you die.
While I do wish Square stuck with something turn based, it doesn't fully upset me either. It did for awhile.
I think there are tasteful ways to make changes to the original and still be faithful modernization of the original. Resident Evil 2 Remake is fairly close to that mark for me. I loved that game, despite missing some things from the original. I thought it was a faithful modernization.
I think FF7 could have been the same thing. The plot device at the end, and foreshadowed throughout is my main gripe - and what it means for the rest of the series. At the moment is it is a bit vague. I might end up reserving full judgement until all the parts are released. However, at the moment my aprehension is palpable.
The impression I get however, from reviews and so forth, is that this is indeed thee natural evolution off FF7.
I wonder how people would react if FF7R-2 changes genre again to, lets say, FPS. Would that be bad? Not a natural next step? Why is change bad? Why is it ok for FF7R to change genre from the original, but not FF7R-2 to change genre from FF7R? Personally I would find it interesting if SE does that. To see how people react.
Yup and this is why the Final Fantasy franchise has been ruined since FFX. It’s just not even worth talking about anymore I give up on this company and all it’s new games. Square will continue to make horrible games and these idiots who support them will continue to do so and defend them to the end so it just is what it is. The true fans can only finally throw in the towel and let this company die off with time. We always have our SquareSoft masterpieces to enjoy the new age of “fans” will never understand that.
FF6 is the ultimate proof that graphics should take a back seat to script, gameplay, music, etc
games on the SNES stand the test of time
They did multiple great remakes of FF4 (excluding the DS remake and it's ports, which are strawberries, much for the same reasons as this; changing things that didn't need to be changed, although at least there they had an excuse), a great remake of FF5 and a great remake of FF6.
ff6 remake being great Is something i cant agree with (although I do admit they made a fair effort). They killed the grim atmosphere of the original due do the new visuals. I commend the fact that they DID give it new visuals, but sadly I think they were bad and didnt capture the originals spirit in many areas, especially the horrible towns (enemy sprite improvements were very welcome and well done btw so those are excluded from the criticism).
Sorry for the off topic btw, I wont mention ff6 any further ><
However I also have to note a thing I made thread about a decade ago already. Some new additions, which is not new content but was rather meant as a nice visual addition completely makes me nod my head. The avatars shown when characters talk just do not resemble their sprites IN THE SLIGHTEST....especially ppl like Galuf are just entirely different and there is really no reason why. Newer remakes carried on this trend and it makes me a bit angry, I always have to either ignore that or mod it.....
You're thinking of the Steam version; I'm thinking of the GBA version. The only problem with the GBA version is the brightness, which was necessary for the screen, and can be fixed with patches. And actually, the Steam version is much better if you use Project AtmaWeapon (https://steamcommunity.com/groups/ff-modding/discussions/10/1733216893877338368/?ctp=7) on it. You can even get the SNES sprites back.
Head avatars are based on Amano's original concept artwork, though I agree they don't match the sprites well.
Its a port with some extras (which are admittedly good extras!) :P
Now make a graphics overhaul and it is the perfect remake like FF7R should have been:)
"the only thing" - retconning the entire story / making it a crazy illogical sequel is somehow a minor thing that couldn't possibly piss people off.
Sure, having the original FF7 with updated graphics and sound would be nice, but in my humble opinion what we got is much better than that. If I wanted to play a game that's exactly like the original but with better sound and graphics I can still play the original with community mods :).
Novelty is the shallowest of aesthetic experiences and shinyness wears off fast; replay value, a vibrant modding scene that shows the enduring value of the original vision, etc. are the true testament to a game's quality. Will the remake endure 20 years? Only History, the finest and most accurate aesthetic judge we ever had, will tell.
People are pissed off at the lie, not at the new game. They asked for a remake for 18 years and it was promised as such for the last 5 years. Now we're getting a reboot instead.
I'm more aligned to this. I have enjoyed the FF7:R (mostly) for its moment in time, but I still believe another 20 years from now the original will be dearest to my heart. The reason we continue loving certain things in life is from its original experience we had with it.
Anyone else here hates aeriths VA with a passion
Did they promise a 1:1 remake, though? I know I personally didn't expect one, from the first trailer it was pretty apparent that they will take many liberties in terms of the story and combat, so that's what I was expecting from them for last couple of years.Never said I expected a 1:1 remake. Cause that's no remake, that's a remaster. I won't even bother discussing gameplay aspects, cause those are not what decides remake vs reboot. Only the story does. And a good 85% of the game is a proper Remake.
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Did they promise a 1:1 remake, though? I know I personally didn't expect one, from the first trailer it was pretty apparent that they will take many liberties in terms of the story and combat, so that's what I was expecting from them for last couple of years.
FF7R is a blatant marked-research game with some crazy, over the top kingdom hearts crap thrown in.
40hrs in and I've yet to experience anything that is just pandering to the masses via market research.
That being said there are plenty things I have issue with like the lack of player character ai adjustment, the weapon upgrades having little to no drawbacks for building them poorly, some optimisation issues on older hardware.
Story wise it's close enough to original that if you exclude the last 2hrs and a couple of 15min blocks it's the same story just fleshed out a bit, the more I play the more I have fewer issues with the watchmen/whispers, the more I think about it they are there to allow for amazing DLC that doesn't effect main story continuity
they already split into 3 parts to make it 3x more expensive
Genuinely curious where that information is coming from? I don't recall seeing anything from SE that says how many parts it will be, but everyone keeps repeating that it will be in 3 parts. Is there something official from SE where they've said this? Would be good to know how many of these we'll be buying (or not).
YES. I don't know why they picked a random YouTuber to do professional voice acting for what would turn out (despite anyone's personal feelings) to be an extremely popular game, and for such an iconic character at that. Something about her...just doesn't bring in the high quality "feels" I expected. Barret? On point.
but everyone keeps repeating that it will be in 3 parts. Is there something official from SE where they've said this?
I prefer a game that has quality - the original game is leaps and bounds ahead of this ... thing. We shouldn't accept mediocrity at $60 a part.
40hrs in and I've yet to experience anything that is just pandering to the masses via market research.
I hardly think making it an active rpg is base on market research.... As the majority of action RPGs are fairly niche groups that enjoy them, as are tactical action games so why would they put the effort into creating a new subgenre
SE has since the PS2 days pushed FF in the action direction to be appealing to more people.
I pass judgement because I have eyes and ears and can see and hear crap voice acting and an insanely childish script - and very poor battle mechanics inflated by adding HP amounts - the most lazy way of programming battles ever.
If you like this game, it's fine - but I have higher standards. A lot higher. And certainly, I find it more than foolish to shell out $180 for a full game and in no sane reality should that be considered acceptable.
What's wrong with it is we don't get a complete game that makes sense. We get a bloated, cat rat quest matrix stunt weird spin off - We don't get a quality release. We get a money making exercise - which then reinforces the next mediocre money spinner. So it never ends.
I prefer a game that has quality - the original game is leaps and bounds ahead of this ... thing. We shouldn't accept mediocrity at $60 a part.
Welp all I can say, do some research.
Now, not all of these are exact ARPGs like FF7 pr se, but still not that far off either.
The Elder Scrolls
Diablo
Red Dead Redemption
The Witcher
Dragon Age
The Last of Us
Borderlands
Mass Effect
To mention some. They have all outsold FFs, or was/is at the very least close contenders.
What turn based games outsold these, and/or is in direct contest? Not many. Pokemon perhaps.
And you have action games like Call of Duty, PUGB, GTA, Fortnite, etc, all outselling FFs and other popular traditional turn-based RPGs too by a rather huge margin.
FF as a franchise is almost caught up by Assassin's Creed as a franchise when it comes to sales (counting all games including re-releases and spin-offs). Considering FF has been around 20 years more than Assassin's Creed, that's telling SE's market team something.
SE has since the PS2 days pushed FF in the action direction to be appealing to more people.
The problem is, when it comes to the Final Fantasy series, Square-Enix has changed the wrong things and held on to the wrong things. FF15 LOOKS like someone wanted to create a modern-style RPG with a world somewhat like Earth, and then one of the higher-ups said "No, no, no! This is FINAL FANTASY! Where are the Behemoths? The Malboros? The Tonberries?" They need to stop jumping on every fucking bandwagon other RPGs have done ("What's popular this year? MMORPG's? Let's make this game play like an MMORPG! (FF12)", "What's popular this year? Final Fantasy 7? Let's steal from it, but merge in terrible battle mechanics! (FF13)", "What's popular this year? Open world games like The Elder Scrolls and the new Zelda? Make this an open world game! (FF15)"), stop trying to turn Final Fantasy into Kingdom Hearts (seriously, was ANYONE asking for Final Fantasy to become action-oriented at any time?), and try to figure out why the original games in the series were successful. Because they're killing this series, and have been pretty much since the end of the Playstation era. FF10 sold well, but it wasn't a good game. 12 was better, but it was clearly changed at the last minute to appeal to... I don't fucking know who, 12 year old girls? 13 was a trainwreck. And I'm ignoring the MMO entries, because I'm not an MMO player.
You don't need to keep the series the same and let it stagnate and die, but if you're going to change it, PLEASE put some thought into the changes you're making! Changing it for the sake of changing it (or to add new bullets in the game description) is always fucking terrible.
FF10 sold well, but it wasn't a good game. 12 was better
That's a terrible opinion.
Vayne on the other hand was what I would call a fantastic villain. Similar to Darth Sidious he plays political games to ascend to the top, manipulates and eventually gets rid of all obstacles while still keeping the public behind him. To me, he was who carried the story all by himself. But in the end, that is not enough for me to label the story of a game that involves all characters "good". Through Vayne it rose to mediocre though.
agreed; in fact apart from story, ffx was actually fantastic imo. mechanics and endgame was top notch imo.
That is the complete opposite in FFXII: The characters have little to no reason for being in this story at all(with the exception of Bash and maybe Ashe). But especially Vaan is so useless and plays absolutely no role for the story, it really dissappointed me hard the first time I played through.
Vayne gets hate?
Really, if they didn't want to make Basch the main character for whatever reason, they really should have made Balthier the main character...
I have to say I found FF10 to be an amazing game.
Ashe should've been the main character, not Basch or Balthier. Basch is a glorified bodyguard, filled with regret for having failed both his homeland as well as Dalmasca. Balthier tags around out of sheer curiosity up to the point where he realizes he's on a collision course with his father as well as the empire, then he's all in. As for Vaan and Penelo... Honestly, who the fern knows lol.
It's Ashe's story. They should have made her the main character instead of designing her with a hooker's outfit and going with useless characters instead.
FFXII is a perfect example of death by committee. Kinda mystifying how they took all the talent from Final Fantasy Tactics and produced that mess.They fired the guy from FFT/VS because he had a nervous breakdown and let the Sa-Ga goofball finish it.
The combat. Well... lackluster. I realized pretty early that there really is no point to use "magic" materia whatsoever. The only reason to do so is simply because i felt like looking at some fancy animations,
Isn't it fun to state opinions like they are facts, all while coming across as holier than thou and dismissive of other people's opinions? Yay, internet!
The stagger mechanic doesn't really play a part in most of the combat, it's more for the bosses and gimmick fights, mainly cause trash mobs don't need you to be any good at the game to kill.
Personally, I've stopped taken professional critics seriously for, I dunno, 10 years or so. Probably longer. IGN's review of FF7r was laughable as hell. According to critique consensus SW ep 8 is a great movie. lmao... I'm kinda surprised how badly ep 9 was treated by critics though. Imo it's worse than 8, but not that much. They are both terrible movies. Maybe FF7R-2 will have a similar fate?
By your definition would Super Mario World and Mario 64 be the same genre, what about uncharted and gears of war... Gameplay mechanics are wildly different between the 4 games mentioned and they are all considered different genres, and by definition they are all games in which you play a particular role to see the story... So they are all RPGs, so the real question is how broad or shallow are your genre definitions? Me I'm definitely on the bandwagon of being as specific as possible when defining things cause let's face it people take things the wrong way whenever possible so why not reduce the chances by being specific.
The writer's are the same minus Sakaguchi, the story is just as ridiculous and convoluted, and is still carried by the characters, the dialogue in the cut scenes are close enough to word for word to the originals localisation, all the plot points are hit for the midgar section, then the things that have been added character development wise follow the originals character arcs only making it a smoother change through the stages, the only issues people are having are the plot ghosts because they are fairly ham fisted due to their sporadic nature until they just get dumped on you, cause hey pretty well everyone missed their intentions on the first playthrough, which happens cause there is just so much they have done that is downright amazing to draw your attention away from them in particular.
Freshies are loving the remake while the diehards either love it or hate it based almost entirely on the last 1-3hrs of game time as in that 1-3hrs are the only thing the majority of diehards hate but they hate it with such a passion it ruins an otherwise amazing game, oh these are the diehards that have actually played the game rather then watching someone else play it or just the cutscenes.
The stagger mechanic doesn't really play a part in most of the combat, it's more for the bosses and gimmick fights, mainly cause trash mobs don't need you to be any good at the game to kill.
Also the story of the original was clever and had a lot of adult themes. Most of all you cared about the characters and could suspend disbelief. There's none of that with the Demake - it's an out of control, totally unbelievable hack n slash. The original wasn't perfect, but it got an awful lot right. Also, I'd point out that the English translation of the original was the main reason FF7 is seen as more convoluted than it was. You can't use the flawed original translation as a hammer to beat the original with.
Nomura had nothing to do with it
Like seriously don't get me wrong ff7 is a masterpiece.
Ima guessing you think convoluted = bad....Nope. I think convoluted = difficult to follow, hence why reading comprehension is the key skill to overcome the "extreme complexity" of FF7 original's story.
I wouldn't call it a masterpiece. It's a great game. VI is a masterpiece in my opinion.
The music from the original is a fairly limited format that removes most of the underlying feel of the trackes where remake has a damn near lossless format with a legitimate orchestra involved, you are also the only person so far that I've seen mention any issues with remakes soundtrack
Visually, musically, vocally, variety of play,depth of play are all objectively better in remake no matter how you slice it. While story is close enough it really shouldn't be a part of the this is better or that is better, game time is about the same
Narratively it's easier to understand the motivation of almost all characters involved, we also received a better understanding of what type of people the characters are, the story maintains its complexity, there is a clearer understanding of the the different factions involved, major plot points are given more context and gravity, emotions from the character are easier to read and understand, themes covered are more fully explored... So objectively unless it's a horror narrative it's objectively shared better then the original the only real issue is the plot ghosts, a good narrative should give you enough pieces that you should be able to reliably determine how a character should act in a given situation and cover a broad range of emotions.
Art is a subjective medium with objective criteria so yeah you can be objective while discussing art, things that bring an emotional response are subjective in nature so as soon as people start using Nomura as a reason to not like or artistic changes as an issue it become subjective, if you can keep to the actual content and quality thereof then yes you can stay objective.
So if you ignore the specifics of the story changes and focus on the contents and story building then yeah story of remake is as good as original, if not better as it is in world more believable.
You think FF7R has bad voice acting? Check out the Trials of Mana remake.
https://twitter.com/About20Donuts/status/1254170156583940096
It's still a great remake, but man is it low-budget.
I also don't see why Biggs survived, especially after his fakeout death. Imo, Biggs and Jessie should've died at the tower, and Wedge should've been revealed to be alive much later, like near the end of it. It would give us more time to let their deaths sink in a bit, but they reveal Wedge is alive not long after the plate fall.
Calling Barret a complete moron isn't honest though. Same as calling FF7 a convoluted mess.
If he is "better" is one thing, but he certainly isn't the same character. At least not the same Barret as he was at the start of FF7. In the original, he is pretty much consumed with his revenge towards shinra. Pretty much everything he acts out is hate aimed towards shinra, in some form, be it direct or underlying. He justifies his action by calling it "saving the planet", though it really is to satisfy his shinra hate boner. Only when he interacts with Marlene is the hate truly gone.
In the "remake" they make him less consumed; a "good guy" and when he does have tantrums, they are often exaggerated.
FF7O Barret wouldn't make silly jokes in the first mission. FF7O Barret wouldn't go back to sector 7 to check on things after the plate fell. After he knew Marlene was safe, and after making excuses to Elmyra, the mission was back on.
I'm not saying he is a totally different character, but by "fleshing him out" they remove some, and they add some. Some for the better. Most of it because he needs to be "likeable", which, imo, is rather transparent. Again, marketing.
but to say that Tifa wouldn't, for example, because she didn't in the original is hard for me to believe. It's hard for me to believe that the Barret that experience his own hometown burning wouldn't feel anything for the people of sector 7. I think in OG he was wreckless and irresponsible as a leader due to being blinded by hatred for Shinra, but I don't think he was ever heartless.
I agree with this to an extent, but I think this is a bit exaggerated. He is about 95%+ the same in FF7 Remake as he is in FF7 OG. You have to really stretch out the details to say he is very different at all.
Hmm, welp, if people agree he is this similar, 95%+, then I guess he is only 1.05 better in the remake at most. ;D ;DThat is actually my opinion. I think the plus minus on Barret is 5% in either direction. If he is better, it wouldn't be much. If he is worse, I don't think it would be much either. But, we are also talking about Barret, who I think was one of the better attempts at portraying an OG character in this game. Out of the OG cast that they attempted to portray in remake, I think they were closest with Cloud and Barret.
Not sure what you mean by stretch out the details. Nitpicky? Imo, the differences is not only the small details, but he is more similar than different, I think anyone would agree to that.That's pretty much what I meant. I think these details are within the margin of error of interpretation. That doesn't mean they aren't possibly valid, I just think its a stretch to state it as a fact, let alone a very consequential fact if so.
Calling Barret a complete moron isn't honest though.
I would argue Aerith is even more unintelligent than Barret.
When Avalanche bombs the sector, you find her strolling along, unphased while everyone else is panicking trying to get to safety. Her survival instincts aren't great.
Aerith goes on her own to find the city of the ancients, despite that Sephiroth is roaming the planet trying to oppose them, instead of staying with the group for safety which could've affected her survival.
Aerith writes 89 letters to Zack, and concludes he must've ditched her for another woman, despite how intimate they were. Give him the benefit of the doubt, jeez. You think she would've figured out after the 30th letter that something's wrong.
In the remake, she takes her sweet time trying to rescue Marlene during the plate fall. Grab the kid and go, don't spend 3 minutes talking to her.
There is a scene of Barret threatening Shinra employees in the remake which I don't remember in the original. Also, in the remake, Barret throws an angry fit because Cloud scared Marlene, which I thought was extreme.
You just admitted, Aerith decided to go alone, and that's what strikes me as terribly selfish and stupid. Imagine if Yuna decided to say to her guardians "screw ya'll, I'm going to do this pilgrimage myself".
I don't mind the timeline shenanigans, I think it breathes a lot of new life in this story. I can see why it would annoy purists, but to me, it sort of feels like I'm experiencing something with more weight, as a sequel. It sort of makes me feel more connected to the characters and story more in a way.
she could've brought other teammates along with her for protection.
I don't see how adding some new themes (destiny, fate) is an insult. It's possible for a story to have multiple themes.
It's not like they're going to be talking about light and darkness KH-style every hour in Part 2.
Are the ecological themes suddenly removed from the story due to chapter 18? No, they're not.
It's also extremely early to see where they're going with this. They could be using it to make things even more tragic, being unable to stop Aerith's death a second time. There's a chance Zack still died in another way, and perhaps Biggs will also end up dying. When the sector falls, they still portray it in a way to make you think Biggs and Jessie and Wedge all died, and Biggs/Jessie have much longer death scenes to make their roles and deaths seem more meaningful.
Just because a story has multiple timelines and time travel, it doesn't automatically make it childish.
QuoteIt's a remake, and everyone should know that remakes tend to change things up and add new concepts and ideas, which is why I think the hate for the ending is overblown. People should expect it.
QuoteNearly all the major plot beats are the same.
Aerith could've brought Barret with her at least for protection, since I feel Tifa might not want to abandon Cloud.
I think the plot being set in another timeline (or "going off track" as you call it) is good just because I find it interesting, entertaining and exciting,
It's a remake, and everyone should know that remakes tend to change things up and add new concepts and ideas, which is why I think the hate for the ending is overblown. People should expect it.
Also, I don't think the remake assumes everyone has played the original. I think the point of the remake's ending is to entice people to play the original and Crisis Core, which is fine by me.
Is the timeline stuff confusing? Sure, but it's also been confusing for people who have played the original.
. Nearly all the major plot beats are the same.
(and if that wasn't a flat out LIE, then I don't know what is).
visiting Jesse's parents, and having Tseng talk to the party over a monitor rather than being present only seconds before the plate falls.
@Kefka:
Come on now, there are quite a few more than that, which were good.
Again, I just view the "timeline/Zack" stuff as a bonus, not a requirement. Newcomers will still be able to understand 95% of the overall story which is why I don't have issues.
"A remake tells the same story as the original but uses a different cast and may alter the theme or target audience."
Imo, FF7R tells the same story...
Again, I just view the "timeline/Zack" stuff as a bonus, not a requirement. Newcomers will still be able to understand 95% of the overall story which is why I don't have issues.
I still think the major plot points (...) are the same.
Was it good writing? No. And it's not an opinion, it's simple logic.
They said it would be faithful in the sense that it keeps a lot of the original story structure and plot beats, but also said there would be new additions. They were right about that. I don't see any dishonesty.
Aaaaaand I'm noping out of this convo. I can only take so much "this is objectively bad" before I lose my sanity. People who act like their opinions are more than just opinions, I can't deal with.
"This will be a faithful remake of Captain America movie. Except for a three minutes scene at the end where it's revealed that Cap is actually a serial rapist. But it's only a three minutes scene, the movie will be very faithful for the most part. Enjoy".
But but but didn't everyone see that 3 minutes. Seriously though the narrative changes aren't genuinely that bad,
so long as they build off it appropriately they could be amazing, as they stand however they are too open-ended for a definitive, it's a good narrative decision or not.
which I have no reason to doubt post remake
Let's say I agree. Now, sidenote, my profession is head chef. If I have a recipe everyone loves, and I change it with a recipe that it could be as good as the original or utter crap, would you call in improvement? Would you order it at my restaurant, knowing that AT BEST it will be good as the original, at worst it will be crap? Wouldn't you ask yourself why I took such a risk, if I'm not even aiming to do better than the original?
3: The Sector 7 plate drop. The battle at the pillar itself was actually fine and all, and it even featured a rare IMPROVEMENT over the original plot by showing Tseng and captured Aerith over a monitor rather than in a helicopter on site. That one always bugged me a little bit in the original, Tseng's chopper was still there when the bomb at the pillar exploded, and some of the debris actually got dangerously close, lol! So the approach from the remake with Tseng contacting them from a safe distance seems more reasonable indeed.
Kefka pretty much nailed my thoughts on those scenes.
Let's never try to be innovative and try to do new and better because what we got already is good? I surely hope that's not what you're trying to say. Open a restaurant and keep the exact same menu and decor for a few years, without ever trying to create something new or change things around, and let us know how that goes for you.
Also, the plot of FF7 isn't amazing. It's a great game,
If your only reason to dislike the ending is because it's different from the original, that's totally ok.
Amazing, or just good, doesn't really matter. It was good? Yes. Did you change it? Yes. Is it better? No.
Did the plot need more contrivance? No. Therefore - it's worse
You know, I've written a whole lot about changes I loved, and something like a long page of reasoning about why some changes were dreadful.
This is getting robotic. All those who defend this craptacular chapter 18 can only repeat obsessively that changes isn't inherently bad, when absolutely no one is saying that changes are inherently bad but that THIS SPECIFIC change is.
not complication with the promise of a possible uncertain future improvement.
The game if packed full of changes, most of whom were straight-up awesome, so this "purist" allegation that you use as a get-out-of-jail card is becoming trite.
If I put tomato in a dessert (and I did) and serve it to you, and it ends up dissatisfactory, and you call me, my answer won't be: "Well yes could be crap, but there was a chance you'd like it". I have to change for the better, I'm paid for it.
People who act like their opinions are more than just opinions, I can't deal with.
Completely subjective.
Again, completely subjective.
Which is all your opinion, and it's perfectly fine for you to have it. Stop trying to state it as a fact though.
If you had never played the original and didn't know how the Midgar section of the original game ended, or the game's story in general, you'd most likely be excited for part 2 and to know what that ending meant and what's next, considering you loved a lot of other things about the remake. Don't claim it has nothing to do with "purism" because it absolutely does.
If I didn't like the thought of tomato in a dessert, I would never order it to begin with. If I was aware tomato was an ingredient, still chose to order it and disliked it, I would not call you. I chose to order a tomato dessert, if I don't like it, my problem. I would simply never order it again. Your examples are quite ridiculous to be perfectly honest.
Do you like strawberries? Cause I absolutely ferning hate them. Does that mean they're objectively bad?
Do you agree the plot was changed? Yes. Do you think the story was better for it? No, you think it "could" become "good" (not even better).
Then you disagree on the premise that FF7 didn't need more contrivance?
That IS discussion. "I like it" "I dislike it" is stating TASTES. Tastes cannot be disputed. Opinions can.
You're completely wrong. If I hadn't played the original I would not have high hopes for the plot, albeit graphics, gameplay and soundtracks are still good. I do look forward to it just because I know and trust the original material.
By this reasoning I can put disgusting food on my menu, it's your fault for ordering. Try running a restaurant like that, see for yourself. If I decide to innovate and risk it, I have to make it worth the while.
See, that's the problem. You cannot tell the difference between tastes and opinions.
Your question is irrelevant. My opinion would be just as subjective as yours. That's my point entirely.
And again you missed the point. You can like or dislike whatever you want... Your taste can be whatever it is, your opinion can be whatever you want it to. Simply stop stating it as a fact.
You start that paragraph by saying I'm wrong about your opinion being based on the original game, and then proceed to write that if you had not played the original, you would not have high hopes for the plot, followed by that you look forward to it because you know and trust the original material.
Dude...
However, every transaction I make IS a conscious one.
...Nah. I'm out.
Surely this will serve you well when you'll be discussing more serious issues. "My opinion is, beating my wife and kids is just fine. I'm not forcing you into my opinion am I? My opinion is as valid as yours".
Your point: Purist! You dislike it because you wanted it to be all the same!
My point: no, there are a lot of things that where different which I loved; but not the ending
*disregard all the things I loved*
Your point: Purist! The ending sounds bad to you just because it's different
My point: no, I can go in detail about why it was bad, and it isn't because it's different
*disregards all my points*
Your point: Purist! if ya hadn't played the original game, ya'd be loving this one and waiting for the next
My point: on the contrary, I wait for the next exactly because I know the original source and I can discern that to some extend it will follow it, because chap18 in itself is lackluster
Your point: ....dude
Yeah, huh, sure... "dude". Good point there. Hard hitting.
If you had never played the original and didn't know how the Midgar section of the original game ended, or the game's story in general, you'd most likely be excited for part 2 and to know what that ending meant and what's next, considering you loved a lot of other things about the remake. Don't claim it has nothing to do with "purism" because it absolutely does.
You're completely wrong. If I hadn't played the original I would not have high hopes for the plot, albeit graphics, gameplay and soundtracks are still good. I do look forward to it just because I know and trust the original material.
And we don't even HATE them, or even the game. We're merely saying that SOME changes were in bad taste. Which is more than you could handle or accept. It's hard to spend money on something and accept that it had a flaw, I know, you think it makes you look like a fool.
Which is all your opinion, and it's perfectly fine for you to have it. Stop trying to state it as a fact though.
Thus far it makes two of you who are dramatically unable to follow a discussion. Makes me wonder.
1. Shinra/Domino: disagree. You see, what irked me since the beginning in the original game was that this superpowerful company had nothing so simple as a cam surveillance in its reactors and some modicum of (real) security in their HQ building, all of whom would've made Avalanche striking two important blows at Shinra impossible. The remake worked hard to make it believable, painting Avalanche as a more structured organization, Shinra as willing to play a charade, Wutai being (used as) a (perceived) threat and Domino as a double-agent rather than simply a moron. Granted it could've been executed better, but I appreciate the direction.
2. Terror strategy: disagree 95%; on a personal sidenote, I am italian. It has happened in the history of our country that intelligence-service and corrupted politician allowed their own citizens to be bombed, painting others as the culprit. And sadly, it also happened and was recorded, of managers to celebrate when an earthquake or similar destroyed whole cities, as they were worried that too little space was left for builders to profit. Two popular strategies are at play, "unite people with terror" and "if there's no demand, someone has to create it". It's not such a long stretch of imagination that an evil huge company who is willing to build its third megalopolis (after Midgar itself and Junon) would pull off such a trick. Fantasy -yes- but not that unbelievable. Bombing reactors is a very good way also to slow down the mako exhaustion and paint Midgar as an obsolete model to be replaced with the improved Neo-Midgar. Of course all of this holds together if Wutai is still depicted as a surrendered and inoffensive nation, as in the original, because if it will be portrayed as a serious force to be reckoned then bombing two reactors is a lot less credible. So I 5% agree.
3. Good Vs Evil: actually, disagree. The Shinra does the bombing, correct, but the group knows not, yet it doesn't stop anyone except Tifa from being willing to bomb again. Tifa suggests later that turning lightpower off will hurt the people of the slums, Barret rebuffs, Tifa complies. And since the damage done is a more stressed point, I'd say the only one who got a character expansion in this case is Tifa, and the group is still painted somewhat negatively, not to mention Cloud being a lot more merciless. Shinra on the other hand is expanded as well, with people being more clearly on Shinra's side than before, Cloud outright stating that Mako did indeed improve the life of many, and pres.Shinra speaking for his case twice, all provide some added layers.
4. Pres.Shinra: agree and disagree ... pres.Shinra is actually handled better, as a character. In the first time he makes the point that his actions are still supported by many consumers. And in the second occasion he says that without Shinra's man-power nobody could help anyone. Instead of being just a snobbish bastard, he makes a few good points. Granted though, the second chance he gets to throw his speech is quite an ill-written scene overall.
7. Bad pacing: agree and disagree. The train graveyard and the underplate were added dungeons for sure, but at least they were expansion of interesting concepts in the original. Unlike the deepground lab, to mention one. And since Tifa and Cloud don't actually believe Corneo much, it is somewhat justified that they aren't in a hurry until they see the shinracopters going toward the pillar. A couple of times it gets trite, I agree with this. The "Drum" is a good idea (later on this) and the Deepground and second Sewers are atrocious.
8. Falling plate: it stands to reason that, even in the original, not just everyone in the slums died, since some were thinking about running away. It also stays true in the remake that hundreds of people died still. Showing the most important characters in the slums (Betty, Marle, Wymer) all alive and well, though, is admittedly too much mercy on the audience.
9. Biggs, Wedge and Jessie (yes, she too: notice the gloves in the desk beside Biggs) alive in the ending. This I consider to be the most serious offense. The events of their deaths were written and executed brilliantly, and preceded by due character developement to give them more impact. And bam, they bring it to this childish, unimaginative and dull conclusion. Everyone lives, whoooo-hooooo. Dunno if it was the Whispers' defeat or not, I don't care. How can you build everything up to such a beautiful goodbye sequence and then ruin it like this. I am shocked really, I think this is the worst of all the remake. Worse than Zack, and hinting at a very negative direction they could be taking this. I was speechless at such a waste of good narrative. Not going to go the route "I bet Kitase wrote the deaths and Nomura wrote their return" because I cannot be 100% sure about it. But you get my meaning.
10. Hojo spilling THAT bean: 95% agree with you. I understand why they did it. Kitase said that Sephiroth's build up as a character was inspired by Spielberg's Jaws: you feel there's a threat but you don't see it. Good idea, but hard to play again once every player and their grandma know who Sephiroth is. They had to consider a new way to play plot points, along with the fact that it had to get interesting since the first part of the Remake compilation. Thus they went guns-out with foreshadowing. I get it. Along the interesting points of the game was Cloud's unreliable character, so they wanted to throw in a bit of that. I get it. But that line at that point in time was criminal. A very bad idea indeed.
13. Jenova: 100% agree. Once again, I understand throwing Jenova in the mix earlier, but that execution is craptacular. Another thing which was easily solved with a few lines. There are four phases of Jenova's charaterization, at first you don't know at all what it is, second phase you think it's Sephiroth's human mother who was mutated by experiments, third you think is a Cetra of sorts, fourth you learn its true nature, much later, at Icicle Inn. Just go straight up to phase two and say it's Sephiroth's mother and there you have it, there's at least a cause for Jenova to be there. The fact they didn't need to do that proves how little they care for the comprehension by new players.
16. chap18 isn't the only problem: here is where we most disagree. While other changes we can discuss of how good or bad they were, this is the one that poses the serious problem. I don't know if you've red my long list of plot points in the spoilerblock, but chap18 is where the damage gets serious. Because chap 18 isn't re-proposing or re-imagining the story themes for better or worse, it's straight-up contradicting them. There are a few way this could still get back on track (one of the most smartest is, the whole FF7R is actually happening during the "Cloud's Mind" section of the original game) or use the new plot points somewhat in service of the classic themes (there are a few youtuber theories on how that could work) but all in all it would still be needless contrivance, and that is still assuming optimistically that they DO recognize diverting from the original as a problematic choice, which I wouldn't be that sure. Chap18 is at an entirely different level of every other change, I'm convinced of it.
7.
Biggs: "Not fond of kids?"
Cloud: "No..."
*caresses Cloud's head*
Biggs: "But you have... so much in common"
Me: God what an amazing scene.
2. Mr.Rasberry's personnel keycard:
...but I don't find it such a serious offense.
3. Goodbye speeches:
Disagree. I understand where you come from...
4. Domino:
...but it's out of discussion that the Remake performs better in terms of credibilty in the whole infiltration ops. So yeah, not exactly genius writing, but an improvement still.
So yeah, call me repetitive but I stand by my statement, I consider chap18 to be on a whole other level of damage than any of the inconsistencies you mentioned. No, in fact I think those wouldn't even bother you as much, if the ending wasn't such a mess.
FF7 was not just graphically, musically and narratively beautiful, it also had a pretty strong gameplay. Of course modernizing that gameplay makes sense, but they also dumbed it down significantly, removing many magical elements (FF7 had a whopping 12 elements) and cutting physical elements entirely (that game had "sound" and "blunt" damage). They removed many possible materia combinations, and from certain materia you can guess that they also reduced status ailments. Nobody talks about that, but it'd be worth mentioning. I am not in any way making excuses for S-E's fixation for exaggerated beauty and hyper graphics.
I resolved every battle with a summon and exhausted my MP and resources quickly, had to escape a lot and faced many bosses with sub-par levels, compensating with intense grinding sections. I played in the most unimaginative, unfun, and idiotic way
S-E nowadays is TERRIFIED of complexity and forgets that many of its memorable games were so good because there was complexity and depth but it wasn't mandatory;
I still remember an article in a magazine attacking FF8 for its "overwhelmingly complex junction system you cannot possibly grasp on your first playthrough"
I still remember an article in a magazine attacking FF8 for its "overwhelmingly complex junction system you cannot possibly grasp on your first playthrough"
FF4 on the DS
FF4 on the DS was a mostly faithful remake story-wise, but it was a trainwreck gameplay-wise. A much more faithful remake of FF4 is the PSP version.
Basically as much as I love og7 from a gameplay perspective the majority of the systems in place are effectively a different coat of paint in execution when the systems have the potential to make a car fly.
not saying that it's perfect cause there is a fair bit of growth that could still be made but it's a damn site better then og7
Kitase: I personally envisioned quite a dramatic change overall, but our director; Tetsuya Nomura and co-director; Naoki Hamaguchi, wanted to keep the beloved aspects in the original as much as possible. Eventually the development team decided to focus on respecting the original while adding in new elements, ensuring a delicate balance between the two.
I was trying to convey the sense that while the battle system is definitely an improvement, I'm getting the FEELING (and unlike on the narrative side, here I have no way to back it up, as it may completely turn out untrue, so the emphasis on the word FEELING) that they'll be cutting much of the more nuanced, complex and sometimes hidden stuff that made FF7 such a joy to explore and experiment with, with many hardcore or even entirely missable parts of the gameplay. Of course I do realize that this would mean that the work the devs did is not 100% pristine and perfect, a concept unacceptable to some.
Now you understand why is hard to take some of you seriously. Even if I say that the game is 95% awesome but there's a 5% I find distasteful, you come up with absurd notions such as this one to get across the point that the game should be 100% above of all criticism. Which is basically fanboy-ing.
Lol @ Nomura's haters. May your heads not explode.
There are definitely issues that I personally have with remake just like I have issues with og7 and the compilation, genisis, deep ground, geo-stigma. But the issues I have aren't bad enough to warrant the unbridled fury some people are attacking it with,
@Iimomo86 you are fun, while I still maintain chapters 17-18 become less egregious on subsequent playthroughs I'm curious as to how you would adjust them while maintaining the plot elements to make them passable
I just think he is not as good at writing stories as he is at designing characters. Whoever had the misfortune of reading Cloud's dialogue in both AC and KH seems to agree that while he can definitely make Cloud look cool he doesn't have the slightest sense of how Cloud acts and speaks.