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Final Fantasy 7 => General Discussion => Topic started by: -Ori on 2020-04-04 05:46:59

Title: [SPOILERS] FF7 remake discussion time!
Post by: -Ori on 2020-04-04 05:46:59
You getting it? Willing to pay full price for it? Have high/low expectations?

for me:  yes - yes - low

i'm an option 2 guy
Title: Re: FF7 remake discussion time!
Post by: Manakaiser on 2020-04-04 07:53:28
Yes, kinda, now very low

Not gonna lie while Im generally favorable towards everything regarding the remake up to this point, I have to say the absurd changes and "plot twists" revealed in the final trailer and by people who already played it are fcking stupid, so that definitely put a relatively big dampener on it.

Not the fact that they changed the original story and werent 100% faithful to it, which is something i never cared about, but the time travel/alternative timeline/guardian of fate strawberries is something even i deem as borderline retarded an most definitely cringe...wtf?

Gameplay and visuals still look fantastic and im still very much looking forward to it but yeah not gonna lie most recent news I would personally qualify as purely negative for me :(

*edit* also heard (although mayb "understandable" since its only within midgard) that despite the announced apparent "significant" endgame content, there are no real superbosses which have always been a major part of enjoyment from ff games for me, that thats also super disappointing, in fact almost as big of a dampener for me personally as the braindead story changes.

Oh and the fact that the "60 hour main story" is more like 25, although expected considering how companies usually heavily oversell the expected playtimes, is also kinda underwhelming.

What a shame ;/
Title: Re: FF7 remake discussion time!
Post by: -Ori on 2020-04-04 16:18:27
Yes, kinda, now very low

Not gonna lie while Im generally favorable towards everything regarding the remake up to this point, I have to say the absurd changes and "plot twists" revealed in the final trailer and by people who already played it are fcking stupid, so that definitely put a relatively big dampener on it.

Not the fact that they changed the original story and werent 100% faithful to it, which is something i never cared about, but the time travel/alternative timeline/guardian of fate strawberries is something even i deem as borderline retarded an most definitely cringe...wtf?

Gameplay and visuals still look fantastic and im still very much looking forward to it but yeah not gonna lie most recent news I would personally qualify as purely negative for me :(

*edit* also heard (although mayb "understandable" since its only within midgard) that despite the announced apparent "significant" endgame content, there are no real superbosses which have always been a major part of enjoyment from ff games for me, that thats also super disappointing, in fact almost as big of a dampener for me personally as the braindead story changes.

Oh and the fact that the "60 hour main story" is more like 25, although expected considering how companies usually heavily oversell the expected playtimes, is also kinda underwhelming.

What a shame ;/

ikr, almost everything i have heard about it has been disappointing, i really really wish they would have embraced some of the old-school in the game, instead of just trying to modernize the whole darn thing

edit: thanks for moving Alyza, didn't see there was a FF general discussion
Title: Re: FF7 remake discussion time!
Post by: Kefka on 2020-04-04 21:01:52
It's funny (or rather, sad) how my expectations have declined over the years, not just regarding the FF7 remake, but Square Enix in general. There was a time when I actually wished for a remake of FF7 with modern graphics and voice-acting, but that was in the early 2000s (looong ago, I know). Back when Sakaguchi was still in charge, I never had any doubt that a new Final Fantasy game would fulfill all the prerequisites that I expect from a good rpg.

Part 10 and 12 deviated from this traditional approach, which was disliked by some players, but they were still good rpgs overall, so my expectations hadn't dropped that much by then, even though I found it a bit sad that Final Fantasy had strayed from its roots. Up until this point, I had always tried to avoid spoilers for any new FF game as much as possible, never reading any news or watching any videos about it, since I wanted to discover everything (including who the cast of the player party was) on my own. For the previous games, all I ever knew about them before buying them was maybe the name of the main character, but beyond that... nothing. And I liked it that way, because the games could surprise me so much more than if any content had been spoilered to me.

But then came the big bummer... FF13. As usual, I avoided any and all news, and thus bought it without thinking twice, and started my playthrough completely unbiased, and... The first 2-3 hours of combat were still somewhat enjoyable, as I was convinced that I would reach the first town any time now. Further hours of non-stop battling followed... my mood got a bit worse, but I kept going, still hoping that the seemingly endless chain of battles would eventually end and I would get to the first town to do something other than battling for once (Go shopping, talk to the people, maybe play a minigame or discover a sidequest or some such. After all, an rpg lives on variety, right?)... but the further I progressed, the more it dawned on me that the variety I was seeking would not be forthcoming anymore...that the entire game was indeed just one long battle marathon from beginning to end, with nothing else in-between... my initial excitement over a new FF game had gradually diminshed, and during the final third or so of the game it became a chore rather than a fun freetime investment. I merely wanted to get it over with. This had never happened to me before: at first I was looking forward to getting to play a new FF game, but towards the end I was actually looking forward to not having to play it anymore!

FF13 was the game that lead me to change my approach towards new rpgs. From now on, I would carefully inform myself before I would even consider spending money on any new FF game, despite being spoilered that way. That was the last time that I blindly bought an FF game, as my faith in Square Enix had been deeply shaken. In fact, I haven't bought anything from them ever since except for the steam versions of the PS1 games. I didn't buy the two sequels to 13, and also not FF15, even though I got my hopes up again when they initially announced a world map for it. But following news dampened my expectations for FF15 again, such as scraping the world map idea again, a retarded action combat system, and worst: spreading the story over several media (the game, a movie, an anime series, DLCs), so that those who only played the game itself wouldn't even be able to grasp it. Thus I also ended up skipping FF15, once again being dissappointed in a main FF game, but at least not wasting money on it this time.

When the FF7 remake was finally announced, it was at a time when my trust in Square Enix had already hit rock bottom, so my expectations for the remake were never high to begin with, but Square Enix still managed to lower them even more with stuff like:

splitting it into multiple episodes
Certain gameplay contents only available if you pre-order the game (and pre-order a specific version on top of that! WTF?)
adding totally out-of-place story content (those Whispers that control Fate? WTF?)
Probably some more story nonsense from the compilation
Most likely, no world map

I cannot comment on the combat system since I haven't played a demo yet. Some say it's definitely better than that of FF15, and that there is at least some depth to it, so we'll see.

I for one don't plan on getting it anytime soon, or likely not at all. MAYBE if they ever release all episodes including all content on pc, and even then it'll probably be used copies from the secondary market at a cheap price. And that's a HUGE maybe...
Title: Re: FF7 remake discussion time!
Post by: -Ori on 2020-04-04 21:30:46
It's funny (or rather, sad) how my expectations have declined over the years, not just regarding the FF7 remake, but Square Enix in general.

I still remember being like 15 years old and hearing that Squaresoft and Enix were merging, my heart sank to my stomach like I just found out a dear friend was murdered... not kidding one bit.

i didnt buy FFX-2 but i gave 12 a chance (way on down the road) and didn't care for it, never bought another square-enix game after that, though


but since this is FF7 i just really want to see what they do with it, of course, SE knows lots of people like me exist and so split it up so they can try to pull $180 instead of $60... 
Title: Re: FF7 remake discussion time!
Post by: Az on 2020-04-05 04:34:03
Alright, so this game is not at all what was expected after reading some of the early leaks, and the marketing has been completely deceptive. Massive spoilers, of course.
Spoiler: show
So, the "remake" is essentially a sequel to the Compilation of Final Fantasy VII that involves a future Sephiroth traveling back in time to undo what lead to his demise in the original game, including undoing Zack's death in the outskirts of Midgar.  The "ghosts" seen in the trailers are there to prevent the original timeline from being disrupted, and any action Cloud takes that influences a divergence in the timeline, like almost dealing a fatal blow to Reno in the Sector 5 Church, is physically prevented. They're present because Sephiroth has already arrived in the timeline at that point, and the game ends with Sephiroth tricking Cloud and co into killing these Watchmen and severing the chains of fate, leading to an unknown future, and in turn entirely different sequels post-Midgar.

In my opinion, this is better than just unfaithfully remaking the game. It's a sequel that requires full knowledge of the original game and extended universe. It doesn't serve to "replace" anything for a younger audience after all.
Title: Re: FF7 remake discussion time!
Post by: -Ric- on 2020-04-05 05:42:27


fern me, I shouldn't have read that. If it's true though, sounds dope as hell. I'm sure crybabies will still moan about it not being a 1:1 copy of the original though. Entertaining tears are sure to follow.

No offense.
Title: Re: FF7 remake discussion time!
Post by: gjoerulv on 2020-04-05 06:38:19
.
:-o
HAHAHAHAHAHA! IS this for real?! It can't possibly be real... If it is... Omg, that's a new level of stupid. GG SE, you did it again, lmao. Welp, at least I didn't see it coming.  :-D

Sigh, I just wanted them to make a 1:1 carbon copy. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯  ::) ::)
Title: Re: FF7 remake discussion time!
Post by: Kefka on 2020-04-05 08:51:11
Alright, so this game is not at all what was expected after reading some of the early leaks, and the marketing has been completely deceptive. Massive spoilers, of course.
Spoiler: show
So, the "remake" is essentially a sequel to the Compilation of Final Fantasy VII that involves a future Sephiroth traveling back in time to undo what lead to his demise in the original game, including undoing Zack's death in the outskirts of Midgar.  The "ghosts" seen in the trailers are there to prevent the original timeline from being disrupted, and any action Cloud takes that influences a divergence in the timeline, like almost dealing a fatal blow to Reno in the Sector 5 Church, is physically prevented. They're present because Sephiroth has already arrived in the timeline at that point, and the game ends with Sephiroth tricking Cloud and co into killing these Watchmen and severing the chains of fate, leading to an unknown future, and in turn entirely different sequels post-Midgar.
.


OMG... just as I was thinking my opinion of Square Enix and this remake couldn't possibly drop any lower, they prove me wrong yet again, lol. I couldn't believe this at first, but several other sites seem to confirm this, so I assume it is indeed true:

https://gamefaqs.gamespot.com/boards/168653-final-fantasy-vii-remake/78537298?page=27 (https://gamefaqs.gamespot.com/boards/168653-final-fantasy-vii-remake/78537298?page=27)

https://www.reddit.com/r/FFVIIRemake/comments/eiszuh/spoiler_containment_unit_abandon_all_hope_ye_who/ (https://www.reddit.com/r/FFVIIRemake/comments/eiszuh/spoiler_containment_unit_abandon_all_hope_ye_who/)

Also, the ending of the first episode is already on youtube, showing
Spoiler: show
Zack's survival


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bc9j6k6ZY8c (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bc9j6k6ZY8c)

OMG... this isn't even a remake at all, it's a poorly written, totally ridiculous fanfic, lol.

Title: Re: FF7 remake discussion time!
Post by: Az on 2020-04-05 09:21:15
Yes, it's very real. There's a bunch of shenanigans that will make you fall out of your chair laughing. For instance,
Spoiler: show
during the confrontation with Hojo on the 68th floor, Hojo recognizes Cloud and is about to reveal his true identity, which causes time ghosts to appear out of thin air and pull him out of the room by his collar. This sequence is straight out of a slapstick comedy.
Title: Re: FF7 remake discussion time!
Post by: The Black-caped Man on 2020-04-05 15:50:33
After Dragonball (with Dragonball Super), Star Wars (with Episodes 7-9) they now destroy the 3rd nostalgic childhood memory of mine/us....way to go. What a ridiculously stupid neon coloured effect bomb with 0 thought put into it.......
Title: Re: FF7 remake discussion time!
Post by: EQ2Alyza on 2020-04-05 16:17:10
:-D :-D :-D :-D :-D  Hahahaha  tell me it's a late April fools?  Sounds like another bad Terminator movie.

Need I remind anyone that if you’re going to quote the spoiler, please don’t reveal the spoiler text in your quote or response.
Title: Re: FF7 remake discussion time!
Post by: TheSlumDrunk on 2020-04-05 16:33:55
Spoiler: show
This FF7 "Remake" or better yet FF7 "Rape my childhood" was a COMPLETE disappointment. When i first started playing the game I was very open minded to expanding the character development of the original story and adding in some cool new side quests to once again help expand the lore of the original game. But nope, instead we get a typical Nomura F%$! up that ruins all the OG scenes by adding in the idiotic watchers of fate ghosts sent from across time to keep the balance LMFAO. BUT the most laughable thing for me was facing Sephiroth in the end game at "The Edge Of All Creation". Seriously Nomura? This guy can't write a good story to save his life. The only good games he's created are the ones where Sakaguchi has been there beside him to hold his hand and put his idiotic story ideas into check. After waiting all these years for this remake of my favorite game of all time only to have it S*#! on I swear on everything I hold dear I'll NEVER buy or support another game from Square-Enix. This company has become a joke after SquareSoft and will forever remain a joke. Hopefully all the true OG FF7 fans will speak up and show their disgust for this remake so it's not successful. But once again, you will have those FF fans who have only played FF15 who will worship this garbage and defend Square and Nomura to the end. That's the people that have helped lead this franchise to it's death. RIP my favorite game and franchise of all time.
Title: Re: FF7 remake discussion time!
Post by: TheSlumDrunk on 2020-04-05 16:44:28
The real question is who wants to start a rebel group called AVALANCHE with me so we can take down the evil corporation of Square-Enix? This company MUST be stopped!
Title: Re: FF7 remake discussion time!
Post by: -Ori on 2020-04-05 17:40:05
this thread is killing me, i already had pretty low expectations, but sheesh...

i think i have been convinced to at least wait for a price drop on this one

i've also read that SE is seriously considering
Spoiler: show
when it comes time, they are just not gonna kill Aeris, leaving her available for the party to use



...yikes
Title: Re: FF7 remake discussion time!
Post by: LeonhartGR on 2020-04-05 21:19:08
Spoiler: show
Zack is alive? I thought he was consumed by Cloud right after his assassination
Title: Re: FF7 remake discussion time!
Post by: gjoerulv on 2020-04-05 22:03:48
Adding spoiler tag just in case.

Spoiler: show

FF7R is a game that, as far as I can tell, appears to be a reboot of the "FF7 franchise". However, it's called a Remake. But it's actually a sequel?

...

Damn, did SE just invent something here? How the %&#¤ can a Remake be a Sequel? Or is this part of the Reboot thing? Like, FF7R's story has nothing to do with the original's story (except that it's based on it), and the new told story can live on its own without knowing anything about the story it's based on? Or is it truly a sequel? Like we'll get glimpses of the original timeline and stupid crap like that? Man, if all this is true, it smells like bad innovation to me. Perhaps if it weren't SE making it I wouldn't be skeptical... Damn, this just sounds awful.
Title: Re: FF7 remake discussion time!
Post by: The Black-caped Man on 2020-04-05 22:42:35
I was prepared for what I thought is the worst...
Spoiler: show
Aerith surviving or even revived before final fight
, Cutscenes and important story scenes altered to be more action based with matrix moves and slow times all over the place (which ofc turned out to be true already after seeing the trailers) which makes them actually lose all their drama instead of gaining more (which is smth movie makers still don't understand but ok it's Nomura directing, what to expect) and a lot more strawberries like several games, no world map, sucky combast system that is only button mashing and tons of light effects and explosions that look nothing like the original and everybody turning Super Saiyan and destroying buildings and cities with a mere look......

Spoiler: show
But oh man was I not prepared for the "we just implement time travel so we have an excuse to mess with the story however the fern we want" thingie. I should have known though....wow all of this is worse than my wildest nightmares.....
Title: Re: FF7 remake discussion time!
Post by: TheSlumDrunk on 2020-04-05 23:12:29
This remake just sucks all around.
Title: Re: FF7 remake discussion time!
Post by: TheSlumDrunk on 2020-04-06 02:13:28
 https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=gEXzyWToyz0 (https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=gEXzyWToyz0)

This video explains what happened during development on this “Remake” perfectly. LOL. Glad to see fans making their voices heard. Square-Enix can’t be allowed to get away with this.
Title: Re: FF7 remake discussion time!
Post by: Mabinog on 2020-04-06 03:49:54
fern me, I shouldn't have read that. If it's true though, sounds dope as hell. I'm sure crybabies will still moan about it not being a 1:1 copy of the original though. Entertaining tears are sure to follow.

No offense.

This game will be interesting to say the least. I'm certainly morbidly curious.
Title: Re: FF7 remake discussion time!
Post by: sen on 2020-04-06 04:41:13
Graphics, UI etc is nice especially the music

Good fan service the remake is

Overall happy with it
Title: Re: FF7 remake discussion time!
Post by: The Black-caped Man on 2020-04-06 10:54:19

Quote
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=gEXzyWToyz0

This video explains what happened during development on this “Remake” perfectly. LOL. Glad to see fans making their voices heard. Square-Enix can’t be allowed to get away with this.


This is indeed spot on
Title: Re: FF7 remake discussion time!
Post by: Manakaiser on 2020-04-06 12:45:30

Must watch - genuinely hilarious for all the wrong reasons. Also, sounds nothing like Hojo or an intellectual.

Spoiler: show
https://i.4cdn.org/v/1586151057035.webm





LOL. Also it truly has a slapstick feel to it...
Title: Re: FF7 remake discussion time!
Post by: gjoerulv on 2020-04-06 14:46:25
Hahahaha! Man I can't stop laughing...
Some reviews are out, and they are generally ¤%&#¤ SE's d#%&.

I really don't want to single people out, but this was too precious not to share:
This guy is talking about how awesome the story is while showing the most ridiculous DBZ/Matrix scene.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U6ilUU_qROY&t=3m18s (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U6ilUU_qROY&t=3m18s)
 ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
Nothing personal, it's just sooo dumb, I have no words.
Title: Re: FF7 remake discussion time!
Post by: TheSlumDrunk on 2020-04-06 15:27:30
Yup and this is why the Final Fantasy franchise has been ruined since FFX. It’s just not even worth talking about anymore I give up on this company and all it’s new games. Square will continue to make horrible games and these idiots who support them will continue to do so and defend them to the end so it just is what it is. The true fans can only finally throw in the towel and let this company die off with time. We always have our SquareSoft masterpieces to enjoy the new age of “fans” will never understand that.
Title: Re: FF7 remake discussion time!
Post by: LeonhartGR on 2020-04-06 16:45:36
Spoiler: show
https://i.4cdn.org/v/1586151057035.webm
Someone watched too much of the "The Flash" series
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3TYsbK0973U

What the f*uck exactly is going on, is this Jenova reassembling herself or time is going backwards and then throwing a meteor... duh! I was hoping at least to watch Zack fighting all those troops sniff  :'( :'(
Title: Re: FF7 remake discussion time!
Post by: DLPB_ on 2020-04-06 19:02:56
Also, anyone else noticed how the big gaming reviews are
Spoiler: show
massively understating these changes
?  Once again, slapping 8,9,10 on it and glossing over it with their verbose waffle.  Every time.  Can't expect any of them to be truthful.  The verdict will come from the end user as always - gonna be fun.  I'm already seeing huge backlash.


Spoiler: show
I think the biggest issue with changing the story, is Nomura isn't a good writer at all. I would go as far as to say this is probably a case of someone's ego getting in the way. Nomura probably looked at the story of FFVII and thought "You know what? I can do better." Which is insane and stupid for two reasons:

1. FFVII's story is great as is and at most would only need certain elements fleshed out more to deliver a better experience.
2. Fans have been asking for almost two decades for a remake of the original game, just with modern technology. Then after years of teasing, blue balling, and flip flopping on whether or not they'd remake it, they finally decide to do it, with thunderous applause.

So to drastically change the story is just an insane move, and to be frank, in bad taste imo. I wonder how many people involved in making this game thought this was a bad idea, but couldn't do or say anything. But more to the point, IF Nomura had a track record of being a well respected and talented writer, I think a lot of people disappointed that this isn't a true remake, would be willing to give it a chance and see where it goes. But Nomura isn't a good writer. He's the kind of writer who just does whatever comes to his mind, without thinking about how coherent and logical the overall narrative would be as a result of it.

What we're probably going to get from this whole thing, is a great roleplaying game, but an absolutely butchered retelling of FFVII's story. And unfortunately, as fun as FFVII was to play, it was the story and characters that made people fall in love with it.
Title: Re: FF7 remake discussion time!
Post by: MysticLord on 2020-04-06 20:34:29
Spoiler: show
https://i.4cdn.org/v/1586151057035.webm

What the f*uck exactly is going on, is this Jenova reassembling herself or time is going backwards and then throwing a meteor... duh! I was hoping at least to watch Zack fighting all those troops sniff  :'( :'(


Theme for that video:
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=MK6TXMsvgQg
Title: Re: FF7 remake discussion time!
Post by: -Ric- on 2020-04-06 20:56:20


To be fair, he was pretty chill in the original when the party meets him in the Shinra HQ, then when the party randomly runs into him in Costa Del Sol, when he first witnessed that WEAPON were real and even when he was about to blow Midgar (and himself up) with the cannon.
He wasn't really "afraid" of anything, quite the opposite so... THAT one reaction is not really out of character for Hojo.
Title: Re: FF7 remake discussion time!
Post by: LeonhartGR on 2020-04-06 20:57:16
Spoiler: show
Maybe they are just thinking of creating a cross over with the DC Universe or a future DC/Marvel crossover game like they did with Kingdom Hearts and Disney. I know it sounds stupid but as I can judge by this video those ghosts remind me so much of The Flash timeforce ghosts https://youtu.be/WG-ne__nTpo?t=112
Title: Re: FF7 remake discussion time!
Post by: LeonhartGR on 2020-04-06 21:13:12
Spoiler: show
Even if I've not completely finished the original game, I've gone deep into the research of FFVII's storyline and watched most of the gameplay and walkthroughs of all different FFVII versions like DOC, Crisis Core, AC movie throughout all those years before the remake. I've never noticed any reference in any time ghosts in the original storyline, even in the rest of the versions that came out and by watching this for a first time my immediate reaction was jaw-dropping and giggling which means that it's rejected by my subconsciousness  and looks, if nothing else, ridiculous.

I would be amazed though if there was a nice directed cutscene with Zack fighting all the troops and dropping down like a real hero or a realistic scenario of Cloud wondering around the city after the bombing mission instead of getting pointless Sephiroth visions with no connection to each other and with meaningless hints that Sephiroth is about to return for restoring his former bad actions from the Crisis Core story. Which also makes you wonder in which way are they going to connect all this with the AC story where Sephiroth is merely evil!
Title: Re: FF7 remake discussion time!
Post by: mr_nygren on 2020-04-06 21:26:59
:-D :-D :-D :-D :-D  Hahahaha  tell me it's a late April fools?  Sounds like another bad Terminator movie.

If this is true then i won't really like the game that much. I disliked most of the compilations for not looking or being like the original.

A remake should be true to the original, not to the compilations.
Title: Re: FF7 remake discussion time!
Post by: mr_nygren on 2020-04-06 21:32:43
Alright, so this game is not at all what was expected after reading some of the early leaks, and the marketing has been completely deceptive. Massive spoilers, of course.
Spoiler: show
So, the "remake" is essentially a sequel to the Compilation of Final Fantasy VII that involves a future Sephiroth traveling back in time to undo what lead to his demise in the original game, including undoing Zack's death in the outskirts of Midgar.  The "ghosts" seen in the trailers are there to prevent the original timeline from being disrupted, and any action Cloud takes that influences a divergence in the timeline, like almost dealing a fatal blow to Reno in the Sector 5 Church, is physically prevented. They're present because Sephiroth has already arrived in the timeline at that point, and the game ends with Sephiroth tricking Cloud and co into killing these Watchmen and severing the chains of fate, leading to an unknown future, and in turn entirely different sequels post-Midgar.

In my opinion, this is better than just unfaithfully remaking the game. It's a sequel that requires full knowledge of the original game and extended universe. It doesn't serve to "replace" anything for a younger audience after all.


If this is true then they've been totally inspired by the DragonBall Z Xenoverse games.

I really dislike that type of format. Instead they should just make the game the original timeline.. I don't think the second or third games will succeed if they take this route. Frankly that's not a remake of the story everyone wanted to see in modern graphics.

The first part is good or even great as far as i can tell, but if they go down this route it will not be a good thing.
Title: Re: FF7 remake discussion time!
Post by: TheSlumDrunk on 2020-04-06 22:01:10
 https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=cz0nHCm6nuw&t=607s (https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=cz0nHCm6nuw&t=607s)

This review of the “Remake” is spot on with everything that is presented. Make sure to support this guy and share your thoughts on the video. I wonder if the fan base all comes together to let Square know that this is NOT what we as fans wanted if they will cave and take all this stupid stuff out via a update or something and just go back to the original story? I think it’s a strong possibility honestly if the backlash is great enough.
Title: Re: FF7 remake discussion time!
Post by: mr_nygren on 2020-04-06 22:04:51
Let me explain what i've seen in reviews (spoilerfree) and in trailers that i didn't like and why:
Spoiler: show

1. Sephiroth showing up in the first scene with Aerith as a clear hint at what's to come. Let's just say that i don't like when they hint at later events. This is true for more scenes than the scene with Aerith- It's a mistake in my honest opinion to spoil future events in later titles by having Sephiroth be present in scenes where he wasn't originally. Most people know of Aerith's fate but there are still the new players who might not know about it- that's why that scene is spoiling things for the new audience if they didn't know. That ruins one of the most impactful moments.

And just to be clear this goes for any other story-element hinted at as well. Like the clip above with Hojo telling Cloud something about his past. That shouldn't be revealed until much later and i didn't like how it's spoiled early because SE thinks everyone knows about it already. They're ruining the original surprises by going ahead of themselves thinking new players know everything. I don't think they do. And it's unfortunate if they wanted the same surprises that we got back in 1997.

2. Those things connected to time doesn't have a place in the game. That's just screaming they're there to mess up the original timeline. And no-one asked for the original timeline or story to be messed up obviously. It's all fine to enhance the original story, add more scenes like for example the scene in the second trailer where you see a glimpse of Tseng when he kidnaps Aerith in exchange for Marlene - that's the type of additional story everyone would like to see more of. An event that happened in the original but that were never shown. I can only praise Square Enix for adding scenes like that to enhance the original story. - But to have time watchers that disrupts the story is to take away from the original. They just weren't needed at all.

Final Fantasy VII Remake will never stand a chance against FF7 Original if they mess up the original timeline. Then it will go from a true remake to a compilation sequel fan-service that will quickly be forgotten as a failed attempt to remake a classic.

Also, as a final point - FF7R can only challenge FF7 whenever it's a full story. When all the three parts are finished and released they could challenge the original. But if they've messed up the timeline it won't stand a chance.


On a final note i didn't enjoy how you could only give the flower to one character now. I see no problem with the second option of the original.
Title: Re: FF7 remake discussion time!
Post by: Mabinog on 2020-04-07 00:35:08
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=cz0nHCm6nuw&t=607s (https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=cz0nHCm6nuw&t=607s)

This review of the “Remake” is spot on with everything that is presented. Make sure to support this guy and share your thoughts on the video. I wonder if the fan base all comes together to let Square know that this is NOT what we as fans wanted if they will cave and take all this stupid stuff out via a update or something and just go back to the original story? I think it’s a strong possibility honestly if the backlash is great enough.

Given what happened with Final Fantasy XV's story, an update isn't totally out of the realm of possibility. It's probably not gonna happen though. The best you could hope for is future Remake installments edging back towards the original story,
Title: Re: FF7 remake discussion time!
Post by: mr_nygren on 2020-04-07 00:38:51
One thing i think is really bad is Sephiroth's hair in the Remake. He used to be the best looking character, heck even the chibi model had better hairstyle - he should have two bits pointing out. Now he looks like a girl which is lame.

(https://giantbomb1.cbsistatic.com/uploads/scale_medium/1/17380/1418846-sephiroth_ff7.jpg)

Back in high school i literally couldn't think of a more bad-ass character in a videogame. Most of it was due to the hairstyle seen in the picture above.

In the Remake he has a woman's hairstyle. The coolness is gone.. It's like realistic isn't always good.

His clothes are spot-on but not his hair.

(https://i.redd.it/vsqlpne0hq331.png)
Title: Re: FF7 remake discussion time!
Post by: mr_nygren on 2020-04-07 01:13:22
His face is also wrong.

What's wrong with your faaaaaaace!

Yes, and his face is the same as in Advent Children i believe.

I were never positive to his looks in any of the compilation games.. Either it was the hairstyle, or it was the clothes.

His face is way more "manly" in the old anime art. They should have kept it manly.
Title: Re: FF7 remake discussion time!
Post by: -Ori on 2020-04-07 01:15:15
i actually hate the Cloud model as well, looks more like Tidus than Cloud IMO

but the sephiroth one is even worse, i feel like i could bitchslap that dude to the ground, and i'm supposed to believe he can blow up a planet?
Title: Re: FF7 remake discussion time!
Post by: mr_nygren on 2020-04-07 01:31:00
i actually hate the Cloud model as well, looks more like Tidus than Cloud IMO

but the sephiroth one is even worse, i feel like i could bitchslap that dude to the ground, and i'm supposed to believe he can blow up a planet?


Exactly, the old Sephiroth had this coolness in his looks that made you kind of respect him. And at a certain age you even wanted to be him. But the new real-life version is too feminine in his looks and won't give the same impression because of it. I would have removed his lips and made them almost non-existent. Then fixed the hairstyle and made the face slightly more muscular. The old FMV had a more manly face as well.

About Cloud Strife i were pleased to see that his old pants were back, after years of those ugly oridinary pants.. But his hairstyle could have been way more spikey.

The difference between Cloud and Sephiroth is that Sephiroth made the game after the Midgar-section- while Cloud i guess wasn't that important for his looks. I can live with the current Cloud, but Sephiroth who is all about being this elite soldier that no-one can defeat, should not be feminine.
Title: Re: FF7 remake discussion time!
Post by: BahamutSIN on 2020-04-07 02:55:07
Sephiroth who is all about being this elite soldier that no-one can defeat, should not be feminine.

Remake Sephiroth is probably based on how he looked like in crisis core and ac. He's always had a very graceful/noble appearance and he actually looks decent in the remake.

Japan has a tendency to making feminine male anime villains. Yet, he's not even that feminine except for a bit of eyeliner and mascara. He's very tall, got a deep voice, his manspreading stance with legs wide apart makes him look very macho and territorial, and his personality is as stoic, dominant and aggressive as ever.

This perception that feminine appearance = weakness is a boring, outdated trope.
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] FF7 remake discussion time!
Post by: The Black-caped Man on 2020-04-07 17:00:58
Quote
Back in high school i literally couldn't think of a more bad-ass character in a videogame. Most of it was due to the hairstyle seen in the picture above.

In the Remake he has a woman's hairstyle. The coolness is gone.. It's like realistic isn't always good.

This is EXACTLY smth that a freaking graphics designer and character artist like Nomura just doesn't get: The old FFs characters were partly so iconic because they were FANTASY characters and not real ppl. They looked half like anime characters at best and even the ones of the Super Nintendo games looked bad ass because you were not given every single detail and pixel of a man/woman: You were given some sort of a mantle(sprites on the SNES and polygon models on the PS) that had little detail to it and yes that was the best one could produce in those days, however a completely forgotten positive side effect of those games was that by that everybody playing this game could INTERPRET this characters details in his own mind and thus easier project himself into a character, a world and live it through in ones mind and it became his own personal fantasy. And that was the magic of Final Fantasy.
That doesn't mean that bad graphics is good and newer suck always or anything but at least in a Final Fantasy game I expect some little space for my own fantasy, some space for my interpretation of things and not another mans 4k HD vision of every pixel forced into my head.
The best and closest approximation of FF7 characters (that I am sure everybody would have liked btw) is the artwork of the manuals and the models of the FMV sequences. Those are the characters as we got to know them and they will be like that forever. With todays methods you can make them look pretty much exactly like that in a smooth way and everybody would be happy....except for Mr. Nomura
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] FF7 remake discussion time!
Post by: gjoerulv on 2020-04-07 18:51:25
Spoiler: show

Hmmm, I was just thinking....
*Commencing useless postulations*
It seems they expand on the FF7 "expanded universe" (EU) here. I'm guessing there will be retconning (haven't there already?).
That means EU is not part of the original game, and that EU + FF7R is a complete different story than the original.

Why?

Because, if it's true that Sephiroth is traveling in time (I'm not convinced yet, perhaps I'm in disbelief) back to the "original story", and every character acts different from what they did in the original, then isn't it logical to assume that what we see is not the original story? And that all EU stuff added to FF7R makes the EU relative to FF7R's story and not the original's?

Still baffled about that this may be a sequel to f*****n AC, lmao. If SE actually intend that to be true my head will collapse into a black hole.
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] FF7 remake discussion time!
Post by: epsilon on 2020-04-07 22:24:34
This is not my battle as I have no intention to buy the game, but one obvious weakness of making the game more realistic is that character acting stands out much more, and from the what I have seen of the trailers it can be atrocious: Barret's histrionics are so damned awful... I will say though that, contrary to DPLB, I do find Aerith very beautiful and not slutish in any way, shape or form.
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] FF7 remake discussion time!
Post by: -Ori on 2020-04-07 23:38:53
This is not my battle as I have no intention to buy the game, but one obvious weakness of making the game more realistic is that character acting stands out much more, and from the what I have seen of the trailers it can be atrocious: Barret's histrionics are so damned awful...

very true, even though i liked FFX, it made almost mandatory expectations of voice acting in every RPG thereafter and the classic turn-based RPG died


I will say though that, contrary to DPLB, I do find Aerith very beautiful and not slutish in any way, shape or form.

i actually agree with him on that one, her cheeks should have been more rounded to give her that innocent look that she had in FF7

she's hot though, it was evident in FFX-2 (SE's first game IIRC) that was the new direction, i'm kinda surprised they didnt just say fuck it with aeris and put short shorts on her like they did with Yuna
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] FF7 remake discussion time!
Post by: Caledor on 2020-04-08 00:39:26
i'm kinda surprised they didnt just say fuck it with aeris and put short shorts on her like they did with Yuna

they wanted to, but the watchmen of fate forced her into a skirt
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] FF7 remake discussion time!
Post by: Devina on 2020-04-08 08:20:58
Quote
Point about Aerith is she isn't meant to be hot - she's meant to be cute, innocent, pure.  That's whole point of that love triangle - Tifa and Aerith are opposites.  Her longer dress was deliberately to contrast with Tifa's for example (developer interview from '90s).

I heard someone mentioning that their clothing is meant to be the opposite, in order to make the player surprised by their true personalities.

Aerith wears pink, a dress, does her hair in braids, etc. Someone could be led to believe she is innocent and introverted by her appearance. However, she is quite extroverted personality-wise. She is a young woman who knows the slums. When you first see her after the explosion, she's calm when everyone else is running around panicking (sure, she gets knocked down, but she immediately stands up by herself and brushes herself off instead of having Cloud give her a hand). She catches Cloud by surprise when he sneaks out of her house and she decides to choose the sexiest dress in the clothing store, a striking red dress showing off a bit of her cleavage, and she also does her hair and has earrings. She sees through Cloud's bullshit "macho" exterior, having experienced Zack, and tries to see him for who he really is. Aerith tries to dismantle Cloud's persona, asking him questions that challenge his core, while Tifa plays along with it and hides several truths. That's sort of the thing, Aerith's already been toughened up by her relationship with Zack and the grief she's experienced after, so I don't really get it when people say she's meant to be "innocent". She's also a flower peddler who tries to sell flowers in downtown, and if you've ever been in retail, then you'd know you have to grow a thick skin to deal with people. Another example is when they're threatening Corneo, Aerith says "I'll rip it off" before Tifa's threat. Aerith is very playful and a bit of a fun-loving troll.

(https://vignette.wikia.nocookie.net/finalfantasy/images/e/ed/Aeris-ffvii-dress.png/revision/latest?cb=20120103140643)

Tifa wears no distinctive feminine colors and shows a lot of skin, especially her midriff. One would assume she's extroverted, but Tifa is actually very shy and introverted, and has difficulty asserting her true feelings openly. For example, during the Gold Saucer date, Tifa says "Okay, I'm just going to say it... Aerith probably be able to just come out and say it... Cloud... I..." but then becomes silent and is unable to assert her true feelings (her love) for Cloud. It's pretty clear that Tifa is jealous of Cloud's attention to Aerith and feels like a second banana.

I think a lot of players judge Aerith and Tifa by their appearances and accidentally switch their personalities. Aerith is cute, like you said, but once you analyze their personalities, I think it's pretty evident Aerith isn't supposed actually "pure and innocent" like some fragile flower. Imo, it gives them a lot of depth.
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] FF7 remake discussion time!
Post by: epsilon on 2020-04-08 10:35:18
Just as a point of clarification and a parting shot, because as I said this is not a fight I want to have: I did not use the word "hot", Orichalcon did; I used the word "beautiful". Every man has had the experience of finding a woman beautiful without having his lust aroused (now, there's a double entendre for you), especially if you are past a certain age, are weary and jaded, to the point where virtue and exhaustion are indistinguishable. Neither do I disagree with DPLB's characterization of the love triangle, which I do not, I just disagreed with his assessment of Aerith (the "tart" part) in the remake -- from the little I have seen of the trailers, that is.

And Barret's histrionics are really awful (in one of the review's someone said a "bad impression of Mr. T". Ah!) And Cloud does look like a dweeb. And I do not like action RPG's. And the parallel universe storylines with overseers, quite apart from the fidelity to the original story, is a crap plot device inserted to give the authors leeway to retcon willy-nilly, with no rhyme or reason. And I have better things to do anyway.
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] FF7 remake discussion time!
Post by: Devina on 2020-04-08 10:48:42
Tifa and Aerith are contrasts, I'm not debating you there, I agree with that.

I was just explaining that the whole "Aerith is a gentle/pure/innocent/demure/girl" notion is heavily flawed in many ways. She is in some aspects, others, not so much.

(https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn%3AANd9GcQFrWJOcrRx79_1fa0d7LwR1L2wRio_6XgOu_CF2ldmzroPXhRy&usqp=CAU)

Haven't played the remake yet but I have no issues with Aerith's appearance and it's always how I imagined her. I got to say tho, her voice is a bit nerdier than I imagined, but I hope it will grow on me.

I do think Aerith is beautiful in both the original and remake, altho I wish she was a bit more dirty looking, perhaps with some parts of her outfit looked a bit ragged, dirt on her jacket, etc. It would help the idea that she's a slum woman easier and think make her look a bit more sympathetic.

I have no issues with Cloud looking a bit slender or tired, because (spoilers)

Spoiler: show
He's been in a coma for years so it'd make sense he'd look a bit atrophied and malnourished.


There's already a million buff and muscular dudes in gaming.

As for the story,

Spoiler: show
I'm actually interested in the idea of FF7 being an alternate timeline, it makes the story very exciting, I think a 1:1 story adaptation would be boring, especially for people who play the original. I hope Zack and Aerith stay dead and that confusing information for newcomers is kept a bit on the minimal side. If they aren't, then that's really butchering the original story and cheapens their deaths.
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] FF7 remake discussion time!
Post by: gjoerulv on 2020-04-08 14:53:33
I just want a 1:1 carbon copy of the original story. Anything added or removed is blasphemy.  ::) ::) ::)
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] FF7 remake discussion time!
Post by: The Black-caped Man on 2020-04-08 15:58:42
And the original soundtrack, no KH/AC shit.....Just the FMV graphics or the anime graphics of the original manual/menu avatars and we could embrace it.....
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] FF7 remake discussion time!
Post by: Caledor on 2020-04-08 18:40:30
My 2 cents, from someone liked what saw from the E3 till 2 days ago, before "spoilers day".

Spoiler: show
I just don't care about this "ff7 remake saga" anymore. They can (and will) do whatever they want with the game now, it won't affect me in any way. The one thing i'm angry about is that they lied to us for 5 years, cause this is not a remake but a sequel. But that's it. My care meter reads zero.

Now, it's highly likely that this first game will be the worst in the entire compilation since the WoF are no more, hopefully the rest will have some linear plot. Even though i don't know how it could end differently: if they ultimately defeat Seph as the last boss this whole parallel timeline mess would be meaningless. Why try to make a different story if the end result is the same?

Even better, hopefully Square will be forced to apologize for lying from the backlash.

One thing i know, I hope Square won't "Remake" anything anymore, or at least won't use the word "remake" for stuff like this.

BTW, the Watchman of Fate are the in game representation of all of us that played the original. Those that wanted things to adhere to the original faithfully. Dunno how i feel knowing that Nomura slew us so he could have free hand in it.


PS. Aerith is not meant to be cute beautiful, innocent and pure. Aerith is meant to look, at first glance, innocent and pure. it takes anyone 5 minutes to realize she's anything but a sheltered princess. Everything else about the contrast with Tifa is obviously true. Hot combat girl is actually shy and beautiful gentle girl is actually very extrovert (for lack of a better word).
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] FF7 remake discussion time!
Post by: LeonhartGR on 2020-04-08 19:04:58
Spoiler: show
lol  time travelling Sephiroth


To mods:  Why do we need to use spoilers when the actual subject has SPOILERS?

I guess for the same reason the whole world is in quarantine instead of just the vulnerable groups! Haha.
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] FF7 remake discussion time!
Post by: Kefka on 2020-04-08 19:38:45
Attention, another spoiler coming up! I just read on some other forum that:

Spoiler: show
this time it is actually the Shinra themselves who are blowing up the reactors to blame it on Avalanche. This was apparently done to make Avalanche look "nicer", and less terrorist-like, to make it fit into today's time, and to draw a much clearer picture of good guys vs evil guys (ugh!)...

And it gets even more hilarious when they argue that "the original game already hints at that", lol! Maybe some of you remember: in the original game, in the Avalanche hideout, Jesse was a bit surprised that her bomb's explosion was stronger than intended, and she wonders whether she made a mistake. Now I (and any sane person too, I presume) always figured that she simply miscalculated, since she's an amateur, afterall. But Nomura (or Nojima?) apparently interpreted that as Shinra being behind this with a bomb of their own.  :o


Honestly, what on earth were they smoking when they made up stuff like this?
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] FF7 remake discussion time!
Post by: -Ric- on 2020-04-08 19:48:34
Attention, another spoiler coming up! I just read on some other forum that:
Honestly, what on earth were they smoking when they made up stuff like this?

Did you even play the original?
Cause Shinra 100% blows up reactor 5 as well as the pillar that supports sector 7.
The first explosion is hinted at being caused by Shinra as well by the very same scene you mentioned...

The remake is so triggering that some of you are going above and beyond looking for stuff to hate on.

I mean, we got socially awkward, on the spectrum, basement virgins debating if Aerith is innocent or slutty... WTF!

And sure, Sephiroth is a transgender super soldier far less manly than y'all. You extremely macho folks.  :roll:

This thread is a hilarious pool of tears. And the salt... Oh my. I love it.

Stay triggered my friends, stay triggered.
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] FF7 remake discussion time!
Post by: Kefka on 2020-04-08 20:24:27
Did you even play the original?
Cause Shines 100% blows up reactor 5 as well as the pillar that supports sector 7.
The first explosion is hinted at being caused by Shinra as well by the very same scene you mentioned...

LOL, you're not really serious about that, are you? I could return that same question.

For reference, here's Barret's exact words when they first meet president Shinra in reactor 5:

Barret: Don't give a damn 'bout none of that! This place's goin' up with a big BANG soon! Serves y'all right!

Avalanche DID place a bomb in reactor 5, in case you've forgotten. Just the timer wasn't visible this time for gameplay reasons (there was still a cutscene and a boss battle coming up, so they probably didn't want to pressure the players too much), but the original game never left any doubt that this was Avalanche's bomb.

And on a side note, it wouldn't make any sense for Shinra to blow up the reactors themselves. They are ruthless, yes, but like any company their prime objective is earning money, and as an electric power company the reactors are their main source of income. If they wanted to denounce Avalanche as evil-doers, they could've easily done so in other ways. From a business point of view, demolishing your own production is devoid of all logic. (And I'm actually surprised that Nomura, who is also among the leadership of a big company, seemingly doesn't understand that.)

And Jesse wondering about her bomb's strength isn't really a "hint" for any sort of conspiracy from Shinra. It's far more likely that she just made a mistake when constructing her bomb. Everybody makes mistakes from time to time, that's normal, and Jesse even made another one with Clouds ID card on the train, so we already know her work isn't always the most reliable.

Oh, and to answer your initial question, I've played the original more times than I can count over the past 22 years.
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] FF7 remake discussion time!
Post by: -Ric- on 2020-04-08 20:29:52
, I've played the original more times than I can count over the past 22 years.

"And such a waste of good fireworks, just to get rid of vermin like you..."

"We'll destroy Sector 7 and report that AVALANCHE did it. Then we'll send in the rescue operation care of Shinra, Inc. ...Heh, heh, heh... This is perfect."

Go back and play it some more.  lmao.
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] FF7 remake discussion time!
Post by: Caledor on 2020-04-08 20:54:59
Love it how there's no evidence of Shinra actively blowing up Reactor 5 (other than just letting Avalanche's bomb go off) yet you act like you're enlightened.
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] FF7 remake discussion time!
Post by: -Ric- on 2020-04-08 21:05:54
Love it how there's no evidence of Shinra actively blowing up Reactor 5 (other than just letting Avalanche's bomb go off) yet you act like you're enlightened.

Jessie was surprised her bomb caused such a massive explosion. *cough cough*. Yet the 2nd bomb causes exactly the same kind of explosion. Yeah, she definitely made the same mistake twice.  :roll: There's absolutely no possible way that Shinra would've. Especially when soon after they purposely blow up an entire sector of Midgar and kill everyone in there. Shinra would never.

They definitely had to be smoking something to come up with that for the remake. There was absolutely no possible way.  :roll:

Oh and they definitely didn't have a "Neo Midgar" plan as well. Must be my head-cannon.

Bunch of geniuses here...

And on a side note, it wouldn't make any sense for Shinra to blow up the reactors themselves. They are ruthless, yes, but like any company their prime objective is earning money, and as an electric power company the reactors are their main source of income. If they wanted to denounce Avalanche as evil-doers, they could've easily done so in other ways. From a business point of view, demolishing your own production is devoid of all logic. (And I'm actually surprised that Nomura, who is also among the leadership of a big company, seemingly doesn't understand that.)

Pure gold right here...
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] FF7 remake discussion time!
Post by: -Ric- on 2020-04-08 21:29:05
also using flawed original English translation to make a point about original story prob isn't a good idea

Point made.

Sorry but, your translation work, regardless of the time you invested and how good it might be, never was and never will be... "original". The game is what the game is.

s7 convo is about the pillar which shinra do deliberately blow up to kill avalanche.

Correct. it's just to prove a point that Shinra would've no issues blowing up a reactor.
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] FF7 remake discussion time!
Post by: MysticLord on 2020-04-08 21:37:12
We're well into best girl territory at this point, someone should make a poll.

If FF7R is released on PC you can always mod it to remove the retcons and restore original outfits. It's not a big deal, though it is funny that SE can't tell a decent story to save their lives.
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] FF7 remake discussion time!
Post by: Caledor on 2020-04-08 21:41:15
Quote
Jessie was surprised her bomb caused such a massive explosion. *cough cough*. Yet the 2nd bomb causes exactly the same kind of explosion.

First reactor has a massive explosion from the top, while the flames cover up the bridge completely.
5th reactor's burst barely makes the bridge outside it tremble.

Yeah, totally the same explosion. Not to mention that Reactor 5 is shown working to charge up the Sister Ray later, unlike Reactor 1.

Quote
Shinra would never.

I said that there's no evidence that they blew up Reactor 5, not that they wouldn't.

Quote
your translation work, regardless of the time you invested and how good it might be, never was and never will be... "original". The game is what the game is.

Original is the japanese. Anything else is prone to errors. Anyone using that even more so. Chinese whispers/telephone game.
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] FF7 remake discussion time!
Post by: -Ric- on 2020-04-08 21:47:11
First reactor has a massive explosion from the top, while the flames cover up the bridge completely.

That's a pretty good point.

Don't Cloud and Barret plant the bomb somewhere near the bottom of the reactor?

Again, not saying Shinra did but to claim people have to somehow be on drugs to come up with that is pretty sad. It's an absolute possibility.

Original is the japanese. Anything else is prone to errors. Anyone using that even more so. Chinese whispers/telephone game.

Yes. European, American, Australian, African players all around the world are going back and looking at the Japanese release for references whenever they think of Final Fantasy 7.

Absolutely.
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] FF7 remake discussion time!
Post by: Caledor on 2020-04-08 21:52:42
4 out of 5 fields in reactor 1 and 5 look identical, except a different shade of color. Including the two where the bomb is placed. The one that's different is the entrance/exit. R1 has the Biggs/Jesse code doors, R5 has the buttons minigame.

Quote
Yes. European, American, Australian, African players all around the world are going back and looking at the Japanese release for references whenever they think of Final Fantasy 7.

If you build up a conjecture from a translation mistake, and someone shows proof of that mistake, what do you do? you keep stubbornly clinging to it? Again, I didn't say you should. I said you're exposing yourself to a risk. This is the second time in a row you twist my words, try to be more careful.
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] FF7 remake discussion time!
Post by: -Ric- on 2020-04-08 22:01:02
If you build up a conjecture from a translation mistake, and someone shows proof of that mistake, what do you do? you keep stubbornly clinging to it? Again, I didn't say you should. I said you're exposing yourself to a risk. This is the second time in a row you twist my words, try to be more careful.

I'm open to changing my mind. Where is that "proof" though? Is there a major translation mistake in the two quotes I posted earlier? Please do share if so.
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] FF7 remake discussion time!
Post by: -Ric- on 2020-04-08 22:04:36
The original English PSX version of VII had Zeng die and tifa's bar was a shop.  Should we keep those too?

The story is the Japanese source from 1996.  Nothing else.  None of the retcons. None of the material afterwards.  And certainly not a totally flawed English translation from 1997.

I'm not sure what you mean by "keep" but they should absolutely be taken into account. That's how 99.9% of the world played the game. It's kind of a big deal, you know?
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] FF7 remake discussion time!
Post by: -Ric- on 2020-04-08 22:08:01
It doesn't matter if god played it - the story is what the original writers intended - not what a localizer on a tight deadline accidentally made happen.

What a localizer on a tight deadline accidentally made happen is what you, I, and most of the world got to experience.

You can argue all you want that it's not right, that there are mistakes and there definitely are.

It's still what most of the world experienced and therefore, it's an absolutely valid thing to take into consideration.

And I'm still waiting to get educated on the "proper" translation for the two quotes I posted. I'd love to know what is wrong in them. Do tell.
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] FF7 remake discussion time!
Post by: -Ric- on 2020-04-08 22:13:58
It's not valid at all. And certainly not when you're using that flawed translation to then explain a title 20 years later by a totally different localization team again working from a new Japanese script. You're not making any sense.

Ahem.

I'm open to changing my mind. Where is that "proof" though? Is there a major translation mistake in the two quotes I posted earlier? Please do share if so.

What are the big mistranslation in those quotes exactly?
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] FF7 remake discussion time!
Post by: Caledor on 2020-04-08 22:15:56
Quote
Again, not saying Shinra did but to claim people have to somehow be on drugs to come up with that is pretty sad. It's an absolute possibility.

Yes, the chance is not 0%. But it's definitively not 100% like you claimed earlier. Again, there's no evidence.

If we wanna talk about the remake, it doesn't prove anything about details the original as long as the end result doesn't change.
Spoiler: show
Remember we're dealing with a different timeline here. For what it's worth, it could'be the Watchman of Fate's doing to tone down or enhance the explosion so it suits their needs. Or any other minor difference we spot. Like Cloud and Reno fightning. Nobody should care about changes from the original game. Cause it's literally not the original game.


Quote
I'm open to changing my mind. Where is that "proof" though?

I just said be careful. Don't treat it like gospel cause it's far from it. I did not argument it further cause it's a mere warning.

Quote
I'm not sure what you mean by "keep" but they should absolutely be taken into account. That's how 99.9% of the world played the game. It's kind of a big deal, you know?
This is the most frequent argument brought up against any retranslation. Everyone is entitled to have an opinion like this is, so i'll just share mine: I don't care. If whatever percentile of the world has been lied to and i can amend, i'll do it. And i'm not talking about name transliterations or meaningless stuff like that, but big character personality and plot altering mistakes.

If the whole world still thinks that Red XIII is stoic and brave and when given the chance you don't amend it "cause the masses know him like that" you've sinned twice.

Again, my opinion.
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] FF7 remake discussion time!
Post by: -Ric- on 2020-04-08 22:21:30
It doesn't matter if god played it - the story is what the original writers intended - not what a localizer on a tight deadline accidentally made happen.

But you're arguing FF7r is status quo and you have no leg to stand on.  Or pillar.

https://imgur.com/a/0wPOXoV

Isn't that your work? Certainly seems to suggest Shinra blew up R 5. Or that they were at least comfortable with letting it explode. Which matches pretty well with the "bad translation".

Source: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=s_LtQ-Pvzkg

So, what exactly was the issue with the two quotes I posted? Am I going to find another similar outcome if I waste my time checking this walkthrough out for the 2nd quote?
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] FF7 remake discussion time!
Post by: -Ric- on 2020-04-08 22:31:07
So basically all the posts about my use of two "flawed translation" quotes turn out to be bullshit as your "accurate" one can be interpreted exactly the same way as the original.

Waste of time...

This remake retcons utterly huge parts of the original story.  That isn't a statement of opinion.

No one's arguing that the remake is 100% faithful to the original, at all. You'll find no one to debate you on that.
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] FF7 remake discussion time!
Post by: gjoerulv on 2020-04-08 23:15:50
If there are conflicts in interpretations, I say go for the most reasonable one. A LOT of things are possible, or, not impossible.

It is not impossible for Shinra to blow up the reactor(s) themselves, but the most reasonable interpretation, imo, is that Shinra let Avalanche blow up r5 after r1.

If they retcon Shinra to being the ones who 100% certainly blew up the reactors, it's not necessarily a bad retcon. But, I dunno, did Han shoot first? We can't have the good guys do bad stuff now, can we?

Anyway, it's not technically a retcon if this is a brand-new story.
But if it is indeed a sequel, then it's 100% retcon territory.
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] FF7 remake discussion time!
Post by: The Black-caped Man on 2020-04-08 23:32:21
Rofl Shinra could blow up sector 7 and blame it on avalanche because everything existing there was JUNK!
The reactors are their income so no way in hell would they blow that up to fight "vermin" like avalanche, they would rather extinct all their possible hideouts, interrogate every slum citizen, etc.
Anything else would be unreasonable. God what a stupid world do we live in if ppl honestly swallow that shit and think it's a believable story twist. Reminds me of Kathleen Kennedy explaining the return of the Emperor because quote "GEORGE LUCAS NEVER GAVE US A BODY!" Whats next? Sephiroth is really a girl?! And that was hinted in the original game, long hair, female looks....jup I buy it. Same level of stupidity.... ::)
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] FF7 remake discussion time!
Post by: -Ric- on 2020-04-08 23:44:06
If there are conflicts in interpretations, I say go for the most reasonable one. A LOT of things are possible, or, not impossible.

It is not impossible for Shinra to blow up the reactor(s) themselves, but the most reasonable interpretation, imo, is that Shinra let Avalanche blow up r5 after r1.

If they retcon Shinra to being the ones who 100% certainly blew up the reactors, it's not necessarily a bad retcon. But, I dunno, did Han shoot first? We can't have the good guys do bad stuff now, can we?

Anyway, it's not technically a retcon if this is a brand-new story.
But if it is indeed a sequel, then it's 100% retcon territory.

Very fair take.
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] FF7 remake discussion time!
Post by: LeonhartGR on 2020-04-09 02:47:18
Alright just raw watched the ending haha! So part 2 will be happening in around let's see... 2 years from now? If world is still alive until then!

P.S.: There's nothing to spoil since it's all a huge mess that I guess SE is going, or at least we are hoping to be fixing in the next parts. Anyways...
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] FF7 remake discussion time!
Post by: mr_nygren on 2020-04-09 10:19:05
This is EXACTLY smth that a freaking graphics designer and character artist like Nomura just doesn't get: The old FFs characters were partly so iconic because they were FANTASY characters and not real ppl. They looked half like anime characters at best and even the ones of the Super Nintendo games looked bad ass because you were not given every single detail and pixel of a man/woman: You were given some sort of a mantle(sprites on the SNES and polygon models on the PS) that had little detail to it and yes that was the best one could produce in those days, however a completely forgotten positive side effect of those games was that by that everybody playing this game could INTERPRET this characters details in his own mind and thus easier project himself into a character, a world and live it through in ones mind and it became his own personal fantasy. And that was the magic of Final Fantasy.
That doesn't mean that bad graphics is good and newer suck always or anything but at least in a Final Fantasy game I expect some little space for my own fantasy, some space for my interpretation of things and not another mans 4k HD vision of every pixel forced into my head.
The best and closest approximation of FF7 characters (that I am sure everybody would have liked btw) is the artwork of the manuals and the models of the FMV sequences. Those are the characters as we got to know them and they will be like that forever. With todays methods you can make them look pretty much exactly like that in a smooth way and everybody would be happy....except for Mr. Nomura

I do agree with you, but not about SNES stuff- I really liked the upgrade from SNES to PSX. And I always wanted an upgrade for the FF7 chibi models. But as you state the artstyle or FMV is the best.

The odd thing is that Nomura drew those as well. I have no idea why he didn't keep to his original work.
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] FF7 remake discussion time!
Post by: mr_nygren on 2020-04-09 10:38:12
hahaha- true story too!  They couldn't see up it though, hence the white panties became black.

Point about Aerith is she isn't meant to be hot - she's meant to be cute, innocent, pure.  That's whole point of that love triangle - Tifa and Aerith are opposites.  Her longer dress was deliberately to contrast with Tifa's for example (developer interview from '90s).

This might just be me.. But doesn't the original FF7 give you German WW2 vibes? Cloud should be a Western guy based on his clothing, the city, the soldiers etc- while Aeriths adoptive mother is the very arch-type of house-wife from Germany or similar Western country back in the day.

Tifa on the other hand and Yuffie are clear Japanese characters. Point is that Midgar is like a mix between the United States and Nazi Germany- the companies of the States and the soldiers and setting of the Reich.

Wutai is Japan.. Just my take.. The Remake kept the German-styled city of Midgar but replaced the "Germans" with "Japanese".

Aerith is more like a Western old-school young woman in the original.

Edit:

Think of the military Parade of the original in Junon. Rufus Shinra is standing in his car with his hand stretching forward just like Hitler did in his mercedes.

Also the marching.. A lot like the german army as seen in old videos. With the weapon moving up, down and forward.
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] FF7 remake discussion time!
Post by: Az on 2020-04-09 11:53:18
Finished the game today. I enjoyed it. The overall plot is mostly preserved until the end of the Shinra Building, at which point it goes nuts. I've played FF7 almost yearly since 1997. I'm not opposed to something new and exciting. Dull treasure and an overwhelming amount of damage sponges on the standard difficulty are my main issues with the game, not the new plot direction. The more emotional moments from the original game were definitely given the right amount of love and are much more impactful in the remake, especially the events at the end of Sector 7.
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] FF7 remake discussion time!
Post by: BahamutSIN on 2020-04-09 12:00:22
Junon with its militaristic themes, soldiers and banners looks quite ww2 esque. But Rufus himself is more like Kim Jong Un to me: a ruthless young authoritarian inheriting an empire from his father.

Midgar could be a Japanese view of America: advanced, corporate, with unequal socio-economic divide, exploitative, domineering, had been in war with Japan (Wutai) and dealing with domestic terrorism. For a slum person, living on top of the plate would be an 'American Dream'. Additionally, remake's President Shinra looks laughably similar to Trump.

But reactors and ecological themes could have been inspired by the Chernobyl disaster, which caused worldwide panic in the 80s...

I think Sephiroth and Hojo are the most similar to nazis, Sephiroth is obviously like Hitler, considering that he sees regular humans as inferior to Cetra,
Spoiler: show
even though he's not a Cetra himself.
Hojo is like Mengele, an evil scientist that experiments on humans.
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] FF7 remake discussion time!
Post by: BahamutSIN on 2020-04-09 12:56:13
Yeah I know...this quarantine makes me so bored I've got nothing to do but draw parallels between FF7 and real life lol.
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] FF7 remake discussion time!
Post by: LeonhartGR on 2020-04-09 21:14:46
Getting the fanbase money from pre-orders and various DLCs (i.e. chocolate bars) is what's keeping such big companies safe from any lateral criticism and low rates.
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] FF7 remake discussion time!
Post by: nfitc1 on 2020-04-09 22:28:09
It doesn't matter if god played it - the story is what the original writers intended - not what a localizer on a tight deadline accidentally made happen.

It actually happens a lot. Once region's canon is another regions apocrypha. It happens all the time in literature (and anime). My wife is studying this right now and could lecture both sides of the issue. The simple answer is "there is no definitive answer". A translation CAN be considered a separate work if done independently which essentially creates unique works, but can be considered a "canonical translation". When done in collaboration with the original author the translator usually has little to no freedom of expression and must approve any and all changes to the original intent. These cases don't firmly apply to the original English translation of FF7. It's more in the category of "if it isn't wrong, don't fix it". The only thing SE did retcon in FF7 was Aerith's name. Only the original translation calls her "Aeris", but that is no longer her canonical name. Same thing about changing Japanese Tina to English Terra in FF6. Every mention of her later still calls her Terra. That is her English name. Did changing it have any purpose? Did it preserve some deeper meaning? Would reverting it reveal something we didn't consider before? Did Woolsey think Tina was just too boring as a primary/MacGuffin character's name? I digress. The story as it is presented to us is what was delivered as the "canonical English story" regardless of how much sense it makes, how much more is revealed (or is better) in the original source or who actually wrote what. A few spelling mistakes were corrected in the PC port, but the ones that remain uncorrected are still part of English canon.

I won't credit either party involved in the script writing of the original to be literary experts. When translating the original work there was probably not a lot of thought given to subtext and implications other than "we need to make it to the next scene". It's the difference between "Let's eat, grandma!" and "Let's eat grandma!" One is a call to a meal, the other is suggesting cannibalism. Same goes for the writers of modern vidja games. The writers of this game just wanted an excuse to make flashy effects and provide visual orgasms. Time travel is lazy. Reviving dead characters is lazy. No one that is making a game to visually impress teenagers cares about plot holes or character inconsistency. Triple A game companies ONLY make games to make money. If people buy it, it's not the companies' fault if the customer doesn't like the games' story. As long as the game plays as intended the company does not care.

Now then; If this game WEREN'T released as a FF7 remake (if Nomura could go back in time and release a completely reskined version with names and locations being different) would everyone be hating on it? Objectively no. This game is not poorly made (at least it hasn't been exposed for being poorly made yet). It's the authors telling us to accept THEIR extension of an already established universe that people are losing their minds over.
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] FF7 remake discussion time!
Post by: -Ric- on 2020-04-10 01:21:01
I'm close to finishing Chapter 2 so here are my thoughts... MASSIVE spoilers ahead so don't click if you don't want to know about scenes that do NOT appear in the original game.

The graphics are too notch, as expected. The combat is VERY fun. It's nothing like Final Fantasy 15 or Kingdom Hearts. The way you move, the way you strike, the certain angles you need to be in to deal damage to certain enemies, it's all extremely fun. And you absolutely can't get away with just smashing attacks (except when fighting scrubs, obviously). You WILL have to use skills, limits and so on. The way you can control multiple characters is very well done also. They pretty much nailed it as far as the combat system goes.

As for the story, spoilers ahead as previously warned.

Spoiler: show
So, Shinra does indeed blow up the reactor in the remake. However, it also affects certain areas of the city and you actually get to go through and see the effects of the devastation caused. Something else that is extremely well showcased are the feelings of guilt (and potential regret) that Avalanche members feel, as they are not aware that it was Shinra who caused all the destruction. While it doesn't match the original game 1:1 at all, it's an extremely well done moment. And Barret actually acts like a leader to the group and not just a loudmouth idiot.

The dynamic between Barret and Cloud is great too. Barret has absolutely 0 trust in him at first and is extremely condescending, due to the fact that Cloud was in Soldier. However, you can slowly see the shift in the way Barret treats Cloud. Again, not a 1:1 copy of the original but very, very well done.

Also... Sephiroth DOES appear. Cloud actually gets to talk to him. Though it is not clear if it's the real Sephiroth or one of Cloud's visions. In my opinion though, Sephiroth's voice felt awkward. I do not believe it's the same voice actor as Advent Children which actually sucks. Regardless of how bad the movie was, Sephiroth's voice actor was great.

The scene with Sephiroth doesn't add a whole lot... I'm not sure it was even necessary to include. It felt like a bit of a waste. If the goal was to show Sephiroth early on, it could've been done way better than this.
 


Even though I'm still at the start of the game, it's been very fun so far. My feelings might change as I progress through but so far, the game is good. Not ready to call it great yet, not even close, but it's definitely good.
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] FF7 remake discussion time!
Post by: Caledor on 2020-04-10 01:24:58
Quote
Now then; If this game WEREN'T released as a FF7 remake (if Nomura could go back in time and release a completely reskined version with names and locations being different) would everyone be hating on it? Objectively no. This game is not poorly made (at least it hasn't been exposed for being poorly made yet). It's the authors telling us to accept THEIR extension of an already established universe that people are losing their minds over.

Spoiler: show
I don't think it's possible to separate this game from the original, cause the entire premise of the remake is to deny it. However, setting the atrocious ending aside, the game is truly beautiful from a technical PoV. Everything but the main plot has improved. Some parts are too long or too boring but other positive expansions outweight boring parts.


Anyone who can ignore / doesn't care about
Spoiler: show
Nomura's magical touch
will probably have a blast playing it.
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] FF7 remake discussion time!
Post by: Manakaiser on 2020-04-10 06:39:19
perfection lol...
I mean i pretty much like it due to my expectations/what i was looking for, which is basically an action combat game with rpg elements and good visuals roughly set in a kind of universe I enjoy. I have no interest in the narrative aspects in the first place as i was never particularily fond of FFVII.

but perfection is a rich statement, especially because the narrative aspects are actually so silly, they almost distract me from the action in a negative way as they are presented in such an in your face/"serious" way despite the ridiculous contents, which makes it hard to ignore em; I can fully sympathise with anyone who really cares for the original and is disappointed. That quote made me smirk.

Title: Re: [SPOILERS] FF7 remake discussion time!
Post by: Az on 2020-04-10 09:08:44
Spoiler: show
Cat quests and rat quests to pad it out don't sound encouraging.  That guy's review from previous page pretty much spells it out.  But at least half of fanbase enjoyed FF7 for the story, so the fact it's a joke and the script is awful really makes it a deal breaker from the get go for many


Also things like:

Spoiler: show

Raz
15 hours ago (edited)
The censorship is more than just Tifas outfit. They removed the scene of Hojo trying to set red xiii on Aerith, they removed Sephiroths massacre of everyone in shinra HQ, Biggs and Wedge are still alive, and they kind of hint Zach Fair is alive, and much more. I mean, they even changed the opening mission so that Avalance didnt blow up the reactor, shinra did...


Also, I don't think many have considered that

Spoiler: show
The insane story change at the end means they don't need to head out to the world map anymore.  No world map.

The writing itself is actually very appealing in the remake. They flesh out the characters considerably and the scene to scene dialog is much better for the most part. Barret, Aerith and Red XIII really shine. One of my complaints about the original has always been that Aerith has like 50 lines of dialog in total and basically just tags along silently after you rescue her at the end of Midgar and until the events of the Temple of the Ancients and Forgotten City, then the game wants me to care about her dying. I never did, even as a kid. The character interactions were too shallow to develop any kind of bond and this is primarily what I was hoping the remake would rectify.

As for the censorship,
Spoiler: show
it's grasping at straws. The Wall Market girls are way more loosely dressed this time around, and both Aerith and Tifa get 3 dresses each that are more revealing than the ones they use in the original. That leads me to believe that Tifa's redesign had nothing to do with censorship. There are some highly suggestive scenes in Wall Market as well, especially one involving Cloud getting an off-camera massage.

There's no massacre in the Shinra Building this time because Jenova has its own research facility deep within the building that only a handful of people have access to. Hojo is the only person there during the events of the game because another Avalanche cell is assaulting the building (result of Wedge surviving), and this area also serves as a dungeon in the remake where Hojo sends a bunch of Jenova experiments and robots your way. All the original Shinra Building enemies except for the Warning Board, in fact. There is a Jenova blood trail leading up to the top floor, but it's mixed with a bright substance that glows. You get to see President Shinra get stabbed through the heart in front of you this time.

Hojo doesn't try to put on a bestiality show in the remake, but he does openly talk about having Aerith breed with SOLDIERs and other experiments during the Shinra meeting. He also says he wants to break her mentally, and he starts by telling her that they recovered Ifalna's body from the train station and that they dissected and sampled every part of her. He describes how they used her skin, bones and internal organs and that she didn't go to waste. This is much more twisted than what happens in the original game.

They didn't change the opening mission drastically, but they changed Shinra's intent. Avalanche still bombs both reactors, but Shinra magnifies the blasts significantly because they want to push a narrative that a war with Wutai is looming and that they're involved with Avalanche. Their reasoning is still that Midgar is unsustainable.

There's a bunch of unnamed Avalanche members who get gunned down on the pillar. Biggs and Wedge surviving isn't really censorship. Also, Wedge goes flying out of a window from the top of the Shinra Building and likely dies on impact. The ending does hint at Jessie having survived along with Biggs, though. You can see her gloves on the table next Biggs.

The game ends with Cloud and co leaving Midgar in search of Sephiroth. Rufus becomes President of Shinra and starts the search for the Promised Land, and Hojo's still scheming. The sequel will very likely have a vaguely similar progression to the original game. Whether the overworld is a miniature scale of the world or if it's going to be connected by scenes like FFX, they will obviously travel the world in the sequel(s). I wouldn't be opposed to the world map being handled the same way as Lost Odyssey.

I'm fine with the new direction the story is taking, because as I said in a previous post, I've already played FF7 20+ times. My overall opinion of 7R is positive. If they continue fleshing out the characters and having a large amount of character interactions, they'd have to severely fern something up for me not to enjoy it.

I have some criticism after spending 40 something hours with the game that isn't just screeching for the sake of screeching:
Spoiler: show
- Dull fetch quests that at best lead to reskinned enemies (Tonberry and Behemoth are exceptions) to fight with mostly useless rewards that you can just buy or find later.

- Dull loot that's never worthwhile, except for purple chests which contain weapons, of which there are only 6 per character. The steal table is also ass. Enemies only have regular Potions, Antidotes, Ethers and so on with only a handful of exceptions, all of which are bosses. Only one enemy in the entire game has something unique to steal, and that's Aerith's Bladed Staff from Elligor.

- Almost no materia variation. It's just basic elemental magic and a bunch of passives that affect ATB or decrease damage taken while blocking and so on. Enemy Skill is a token materia with only 4 skills that are completely useless. There's Wind materia, but no Earth or Gravity. There's only a handful of summons and they've shown almost all of them in trailers while some are pre-order DLC.

- No reason to use anything other than level 1 spells because the increased MP cost and cast time isn't worth it, especially on Hard Mode where MP doesn't recover and you can't use items. Very little difference in damage, and Curaga is only worth using when you have Magnify/All set.

- Useless items. You get 3k+ health early in the game and a Mega Potion heals 1.5k at most. You also can't use them rapidly from the menu outside of combat. You have to manually select and use one over and over until you have full health and it boots you from the menu with each use.

- All bosses are damage sponges. Hundred Gunner/Arsenal and Air Buster took me 10 minutes to put down on Normal difficulty, and it wasn't hard, just tedious.

- Mind numbing arena matches that are repeated for each playable character with identical encounters. The only worthwhile rewards are level 2 limit breaks.

- Completely worthless weapon upgrade system that encourages you to just set it to auto because you don't need anything other than flat damage upgrades.

- Summon and limit break system flat out sucks. You barely ever get to use either. The limit gauge isn't stored between fights, so it starts over again each time and almost never fully charges unless you use accessories that make it charge via MP or ATB use. You can also take damage during the windup animation. I've had Cloud die right before using Ascension/Climhazzard multiple times. Better yet, Aerith during Planet's Protector. Not only do you not get to use your limit break, but you also drain the gauge completely. Massive game design flaw. The summons are also worthless because they just stand around doing nothing unless you spend your own ATB on their attacks, which mostly suck and are about as powerful as a level 2 spell. Their one use is waiting for the summon bar to drain completely so they use their limit break, which is also underwhelming and barely more powerful than a level 3 spell.

- Some OST misfires. The OST does have many versions of each track playing during different situations, but some of them are just bad and would make Uematsu cry, especially the Oppressed People playing outside of Wall Market. The OST is mostly well done. Air Buster's version of Those Who Fight Further is probably the best version ever recorded.

- Lots of slow world interactions and animations. God help you if you want to move up a ladder or shimmy along a wall. It takes forever and has lots of awkward movement quirks that could use polish.

- Absurd loading times. There's a pullup minigame at the end of Wall Market that has 40 second rounds at the highest difficulty, and if you mess up once you have no hope of winning. If you select give up it takes longer than the round itself to load the world state so you essentially have to pick your poison. Should've had a retry option.

- The slums are very bland and lost most of the soul the original had. I like Wall Market because it reminds me of Yakuza, but the original's still better.

- Edit: I'd also like to add the bland level design and constant invisible walls and restrictions that prevent you from exploring until you reach very specific points in each relevant chapter to the list. This is extremely annoying when you spot a chest a few steps off the beaten path and can't go there because a character wants you to follow them to the next cutscene.
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] FF7 remake discussion time!
Post by: Manakaiser on 2020-04-10 09:39:37


I have some criticism after spending 40 something hours with the game that isn't just screeching for the sake of screeching:
Spoiler: show
- Dull fetch quests that at best lead to reskinned enemies (Tonberry and Behemoth are exceptions) to fight with mostly useless rewards that you can just buy or find later.

- Dull loot that's never worthwhile, except for purple chests which contain weapons, of which there are only 6 per character. The steal table is also ass. Enemies only have regular Potions, Antidotes, Ethers and so on with only a handful of exceptions, all of which are bosses. Only one enemy in the entire game has something unique to steal, and that's Aerith's Bladed Staff from Elligor.

- Almost no materia variation. It's just basic elemental magic and a bunch of passives that affect ATB or decrease damage taken while blocking and so on. Enemy Skill is a token materia with only 4 skills that are completely useless. There's Wind materia, but no Earth or Gravity. There's only a handful of summons and they've shown almost all of them in trailers while some are pre-order DLC.

- No reason to use anything other than level 1 spells because the increased MP cost and cast time isn't worth it, especially on Hard Mode where MP doesn't recover and you can't use items. Very little difference in damage, and Curaga is only worth using when you have Magnify/All set.

- Useless items. You get 3k+ health early in the game and a Mega Potion heals 1.5k at most. You also can't use them rapidly from the menu outside of combat. You have to manually select and use one over and over until you have full health and it boots you from the menu with each use.

- All bosses are damage sponges. Hundred Gunner/Arsenal and Air Buster took me 10 minutes to put down on Normal difficulty, and it wasn't hard, just tedious.

- Mind numbing arena matches that are repeated for each playable character with identical encounters. The only worthwhile rewards are level 2 limit breaks.

- Completely worthless weapon upgrade system that encourages you to just set it to auto because you don't need anything other than flat damage upgrades.

- Summon and limit break system flat out sucks. You barely ever get to use either. The limit gauge isn't stored between fights, so it starts over again each time and almost never fully charges unless you use accessories that make it charge via MP or ATB use. You can also take damage during the windup animation. I've had Cloud die right before using Ascension/Climhazzard multiple times. Better yet, Aerith during Planet's Protector. Not only do you not get to use your limit break, but you also drain the gauge completely. Massive game design flaw. The summons are also worthless because they just stand around doing nothing unless you spend your own ATB on their attacks, which mostly suck and are about as powerful as a level 2 spell. Their one use is waiting for the summon bar to drain completely so they use their limit break, which is also underwhelming and barely more powerful than a level 3 spell.

- Some OST misfires. The OST does have many versions of each track playing during different situations, but some of them are just bad and would make Uematsu cry, especially the Oppressed People playing outside of Wall Market. The OST is mostly well done. Air Buster's version of Those Who Fight Further is probably the best version ever recorded.

- Lots of slow world interactions and animations. God help you if you want to move up a ladder or shimmy along a wall. It takes forever and has lots of awkward movement quirks that could use polish.

- Absurd loading times. There's a pullup minigame at the end of Wall Market that has 40 second rounds at the highest difficulty, and if you mess up once you have no hope of winning. If you select give up it takes longer than the round itself to load the world state so you essentially have to pick your poison. Should've had a retry option.

- The slums are very bland and lost most of the soul the original had. I like Wall Market because it reminds me of Yakuza, but the original's still better.


thats literally spot on; great list
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] FF7 remake discussion time!
Post by: The Black-caped Man on 2020-04-10 10:32:34
As expected. It's not just not FF7 or a bad FF7, it's a dull action game with a character evolve system containing nothing but useless grinding for flat damage upgades, bad camera movement and AI but lots of flashyness....

Graphics, graphics, drama, matrix scenes, dbz scenes, effects, flashes are what 90% of the programming work went into.

Balance, itemization, strategy, story-telling, character development (gameplay and story wise), logical decisions of characters/companies, reasoning for ppl to be and say smth in a specific situation...all that what is really making any game good seems to be missing.

Good job
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] FF7 remake discussion time!
Post by: -Ric- on 2020-04-10 17:26:19
Hahaha.
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] FF7 remake discussion time!
Post by: sedef122003 on 2020-04-10 18:08:45
Also I disagree about the voice acting and script.  It's atrocious high school level writing and acting.  Objectively poor.

Objectively poor? That is just not true now is it champ? Writing is some of the best Square has done in years and the voice acting is stellar, now that is my opinion so you can disagree but it is by no means objectively poor. You always seem to want to moan about something though. Got it a week early and just completed it. Fantastic game. I knew you fools would be moaning though. Stick with the mods, your attachment to the original curbs any meaningful critique.
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] FF7 remake discussion time!
Post by: -Ric- on 2020-04-10 18:37:24
Objectively poor? That is just not true now is it champ? Writing is some of the best Square has done in years and the voice acting is stellar, now that is my opinion so you can disagree but it is by no means objectively poor. You always seem to want to moan about something though. Got it a week early and just completed it. Fantastic game. I knew you fools would be moaning though. Stick with the mods, your attachment to the original curbs any meaningful critique.

You startled the witch.
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] FF7 remake discussion time!
Post by: The Black-caped Man on 2020-04-10 20:31:55
Quote
Objectively poor? That is just not true now is it champ? Writing is some of the best Square has done in years and the voice acting is stellar, now that is my opinion so you can disagree but it is by no means objectively poor.


Its not hard to do since all they have done since FFX sucked hard which is 18 years now^^

Quote
You always seem to want to moan about something though. Got it a week early and just completed it. Fantastic game. I knew you fools would be moaning though. Stick with the mods, your attachment to the original curbs any meaningful critique.

Oh we will. We are older than the Game of thrones generation that just swallows everything flashy that has no real depth beyond its surface and that has "genius" plot twists in there like a company blowing themselves up just for the sake to have plot twists. And if a remake is announced it is natural to expect just that and not complete new story, characters that dont die but died in the original, mindless time traveling scenes that lack any logic, etc.

As for you, why do you post here if you "knew we would be moaning"? Seems irrational to me, you're trying to defend smth that on this forum will never be accepted by the majority of regular posters after all the changes they made (and also never truly announced, up to 2 weeks ago they still said it would be the same main story which was just a bold faced lie).

So go jerk off to AC, GoT or whatever and stop fighting a lost war here.
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] FF7 remake discussion time!
Post by: -Ric- on 2020-04-10 20:35:40
As for you, why do you post here if you "knew we would be moaning"? Seems irrational to me, you're trying to defend smth that on this forum will never be accepted by the majority of regular posters

Half a dozen of butthurt, triggered, crying folks don't represent the entirety of these forums.

His post is just as welcome as your tears are.

The triggering is real.

You wait for the user reviews... champ!

9.5 on IMDB and 8.1 on Metacritic so far. Not bad for an "unplayable, nonsensical pile of dog shite".
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] FF7 remake discussion time!
Post by: -Ric- on 2020-04-10 22:41:54
160 negative already for a game hyped this much.

Now share the number of positive so I can laugh at you some more.
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] FF7 remake discussion time!
Post by: gjoerulv on 2020-04-10 23:40:50
It'll probably settle somewhere between 7-8 I'm guessing. Right now it's the extreme ends that shows, mostly extreme fanboys who rates; hardly a reliable way to measure the "true" score. I've even seen some rate it 0 or 10 just to even out the filed, lol.

One can't deny that the fanboyism has been at all-time high levels, for a loong time now. It's the fanboys who drives the consensus atm, just because how many there are. But some see through SE's seamless manipulative marketing.

...
In the end, how you feel, and how it is supposed to be perceived, doesn't really matter. But the fact remains that SE are manipulative in their marketing by pushing their product in a certain way.
</shemlesspromoting>

https://sidearc.com/square-enix-is-lying-about-final-fantasy-vii-remake/ (https://sidearc.com/square-enix-is-lying-about-final-fantasy-vii-remake/)

SE's marketing has an effect. Here are some fanboyquotes (long before release or demo):
Quote
This is how the story was intended to be told from the start.

It would be a waste not to make it (FF7R) action oriented.

FFs have always been action games at heart.

You can finally experience the true FF7 story.

Making the remake an action game stays true to the FF7 spirit.

I'm not triggered; I'm fascinated and amused. It's really a good look at social compliance.

Can't wait for the next "episode" to see what shenanigans SE can muster up. How many mountains will Sephiroth blow up?
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] FF7 remake discussion time!
Post by: EQ2Alyza on 2020-04-10 23:58:56
Nobody’s rating should matter to you except for your own. If anything, it’ll offer extra insight, but it’s definitely not meant to persuade you or others to think differently. Learn that and you’ll avoid getting worked up over these “discussion” threads.
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] FF7 remake discussion time!
Post by: -Ric- on 2020-04-11 00:14:25
It'll probably settle somewhere between 7-8 I'm guessing. Right now it's the extreme ends that shows, mostly extreme fanboys who rates; hardly a reliable way to measure the "true" score. I've even seen some rate it 0 or 10 just to even out the filed, lol.

I find both extremes hilariously sad. Those who claim it's the greatest game ever as well as those that claim is the worst game ever, should be mocked evenly.

As with most things in life, the answer lies somewhere in the middle.

I'm not triggered; I'm fascinated and amused. It's really a good look at social compliance.

Since you haven't made 50 posts pretty much just crying, running out of stuff to cry about and end up randomly repeating yourself, I believe you.

There's no denying some folks ARE triggered as all hell though. Which I can't help but to find hilarious. It's just a game after all.

Nobody’s rating should matter to you except for your own. If anything, it’ll offer extra insight, but it’s definitely not meant to persuade you or others to think differently. Learn that and you’ll avoid getting worked up over these “discussion” threads.

Shhhhh! It's important that some strangers on the interwebs agree with our views.
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] FF7 remake discussion time!
Post by: Caledor on 2020-04-11 00:44:19
Yesterday, i stumbled upon a video where three old school italian influencers/youtubers/whatevers said, unanimously: I hope they don't add Genesis or whatever. I'm scared of what Nomura might pull. I wanna go back to Japan to watch the cherry blossoms, not to murder Nomura.

Those people are doing a live blind run of the Remake "for the fans". I'm so gonna buy loads of popcorn...

I give it a week or two. The bomb will drop sooner or later.
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] FF7 remake discussion time!
Post by: sl1982 on 2020-04-11 01:13:11
-Ric- Your inflammatory responses to other peoples posts are bordering on a warning. Check yourself before I have to.
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] FF7 remake discussion time!
Post by: -Ric- on 2020-04-11 01:20:32
-Ric- Your inflammatory responses to other peoples posts are bordering on a warning. Check yourself before I have to.

If broke any rules and/or you feel a warning status is justified, just do it. I stand by everything I've said.
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] FF7 remake discussion time!
Post by: sl1982 on 2020-04-11 02:05:29
Its not what you say its how you say it. But fine. I will keep that in mind next time i was considering a warning
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] FF7 remake discussion time!
Post by: -Ric- on 2020-04-11 03:27:28
Its not what you say its how you say it.

That's a fair criticism. I'll try to be less of an ass.
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] FF7 remake discussion time!
Post by: Izban on 2020-04-11 03:28:46
I'm 20 something hours in, so far the remake is in my opinion great, story arc hasn't changed much so far, has been an enjoyable experience

Gameplay, early game is pretty well square to win until specific encounters, the further in you get the less viable it gets, like you definitely need to use magic and build stagger to have any success getting wiped by basic mobs is a new experience, but is more of an inconvenience due to the rez pre-failed battle and saving anywhere, each character plays very different and have a specific archetype in mind, overall I feel its definitely a RPG game over an action game.while being a tad linear so far it feels pretty open

Story wise the changes I've ran into have come into a 3 categories, filling out plot points which the majority have been handles well, the watchmen of fate ass-pulls that really could of been left out and it would of improved my experience and character building moments which overall haven't been bad, disagreeable to some but not underlyingly bad.
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] FF7 remake discussion time!
Post by: Manakaiser on 2020-04-11 10:54:34
i second this that sounds entertaining
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] FF7 remake discussion time!
Post by: Caledor on 2020-04-11 16:31:48
Video is fully in italian but here's some more quotes:

Title: Re: [SPOILERS] FF7 remake discussion time!
Post by: gjoerulv on 2020-04-11 17:14:44
The foreshadowing bit is definitely true. Even the intro has foreshadowing.
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] FF7 remake discussion time!
Post by: epsilon on 2020-04-11 19:37:06
Its not what you say its how you say it.

Really? So let us take this gem:

Quote
I mean, we got socially awkward, on the spectrum, basement virgins debating if Aerith is innocent or slutty... WTF!

And sure, Sephiroth is a transgender super soldier far less manly than y'all. You extremely macho folks.  :roll:

This thread is a hilarious pool of tears. And the salt... Oh my. I love it.

Stay triggered my friends, stay triggered.

Suppose I had responded: "I imagine the sense of humor varies. Personally I find it hilarious that a eunuch frog in a cape, that does not even rise to the indignity of being a basement wanker, is triggered by watching others getting triggered." The problem would be the tone or the content?

Look, I have no problems with insults flying and exploding everywhere. I have been in forums where it is a real jungle, and I dished it as much as I took. I am a big boy, so it is no skin off my back. At the same time -- and this is a purely personal reflection -- I am trying to tone down my natural aggressiveness to better reflect what I actually believe in, but let's not paper over it calling it "the way you said" when of course there were real insults.
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] FF7 remake discussion time!
Post by: -Ric- on 2020-04-11 19:54:37
Suppose I had responded: "I imagine the sense of humor varies. Personally I find it hilarious that a eunuch frog in a cape, that does not even rise to the indignity of being a basement wanker, is triggered by watching others getting triggered."

If that's the best you could come up with, I would not be offended, just amused. You tried way too hard and missed all the marks. Unless, of course, you just wanted to offend the Android mascot for the sake of it.

Oh well. We all love a trier eh. Please do better though.

I have been in forums where it is a real jungle, and I dished it as much as I took.

Cool flex boy. Highly intimidating.

I am trying to tone down my natural aggressiveness.

Yeah, boy. It's all that testosterone in you. You big, bad, mean, agressive boy. "ME HULK ME SMASH"  :roll:  :roll:

I swear I'm trying to be nicer.
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] FF7 remake discussion time!
Post by: -Ric- on 2020-04-11 20:14:49
On topic...

Spoiler: show
My Lord. They made Jessie THIRSTY in this remake. She's borderline sexually harassing Cloud. LOL
"Mind coming over for a while tomorrow night? My roommates should all be out for a while".
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] FF7 remake discussion time!
Post by: Tekkie.X on 2020-04-11 21:08:37
I'm on chapter 9, 15 hours in and loving it, even the changes I've seen so far. A few of the music tracks are interesting remixes, like the Ska/hip hop mix at the start of chapter 9.
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] FF7 remake discussion time!
Post by: Meical on 2020-04-11 21:29:35
Anyone else disappointed in the Remake after having played it?  Made it to Chapter 9, and I'm already down playing.
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] FF7 remake discussion time!
Post by: epsilon on 2020-04-11 21:38:09
Oh well. We all love a trier eh. Please do better though.

It is hard to disagree with you here, and yet, for all its poorness, it is still infinitely wittier than your puerile schoolyard taunting.
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] FF7 remake discussion time!
Post by: -Ric- on 2020-04-11 21:47:49
It is hard to disagree with you here, and yet, for all its poorness, it is still infinitely wittier than your puerile schoolyard taunting.

*yawn*

I'm on chapter 9, 15 hours in and loving it, even the changes I've seen so far. A few of the music tracks are interesting remixes, like the Ska/hip hop mix at the start of chapter 9.

Some of the new tracks are pretty meh. I'm in love with the combat system though. And damn, I'm still on chapter 4, 8 hours in.
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] FF7 remake discussion time!
Post by: -Ric- on 2020-04-11 21:54:32
Yes, ignore me like the guy that has replied to me like 6 times in this thread does. Hopefully at least I don't give you anxiety like I do to him and don't make you private message people to vent and report posts.

And yes, I'm absolutely on a crusade to defend something I gain absolutely nothing by defending.  :roll: Compare my number of posts about it to yours and do tell who's on a crusade. Shite. I even just criticized some of the soundtrack right before you decided to showcase your spectacular IQ. My previous post was also a criticism on Jessie's character.

Normal people don't go on crusades defending/bashing pieces of software that cost 50 bucks. Not that you would know anything about being normal.

I'm done with you both. Lay your silly baits to rest and I'll lay my mockery of you to rest as well.
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] FF7 remake discussion time!
Post by: sl1982 on 2020-04-11 22:04:45
Really? So let us take this gem:

Suppose I had responded: "I imagine the sense of humor varies. Personally I find it hilarious that a eunuch frog in a cape, that does not even rise to the indignity of being a basement wanker, is triggered by watching others getting triggered." The problem would be the tone or the content?

Look, I have no problems with insults flying and exploding everywhere. I have been in forums where it is a real jungle, and I dished it as much as I took. I am a big boy, so it is no skin off my back. At the same time -- and this is a purely personal reflection -- I am trying to tone down my natural aggressiveness to better reflect what I actually believe in, but let's not paper over it calling it "the way you said" when of course there were real insults.

Did you not read what I said? Its called a warning. Its like you didnt even read the post i sent him before. But feel free to criticise my moderation. I have thicker skin than you do and can guarantee I will be around longer.
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] FF7 remake discussion time!
Post by: Mabinog on 2020-04-11 22:39:46
I'm with a lot of other people here in saying that the story changes are making me scratch my head, particularly the stuff with Sephiroth and the ghosts. But I'm enjoying the actual game quite a bit. Combat is very fun. Even just walking around the slums and doing quests was kinda cool. I'm only on chapter 4 so I'm looking forward to what comes next.
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] FF7 remake discussion time!
Post by: epsilon on 2020-04-11 22:57:14
Post deleted by me -- nothing interesting in it.
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] FF7 remake discussion time!
Post by: Izban on 2020-04-12 03:36:04
33hrs in and still learning the combat system, they have done an amazing job at timing the roll out of new mechanics.

Only criticisms so far are, mostly minor, -map loading on older hardware isn't always smooth, -watchmen of fate(they add nothing so far), -/+ weapon upgrade flavours need better variety and tradeoffs.

So far the only gameplay issue I have had is that there is no penalty for poor weapon builds, 100gil to clear upgrades and start again removes the weight of choosing what to select, they could of made it so selecting a +atkp locks out a +matkp so the building process was strategic or put a tighter limit on sp, at the moment it's just stack add socket, then +atkp or +matkp then +HP, as at the moment +D,+SD,+MD are trash on normal could get amazing on hard, but on normal dps outweighs everything else.

Fury is still beast, spectral cogwheel and transference module are amazing trinkets, and good lord limits are useful as all hell as a oh crap button, just kinda bummed you don't get to see them super often
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] FF7 remake discussion time!
Post by: sen on 2020-04-12 05:09:31
Got my copy super early before release plus isolation time so I had lots of time to spend on this game just 100% it now

I enjoyed it alot :) Looking forward to the next game and this one's eventual PC release

Oh shit wrong place my bad I'll shit on it don't wanna lose my cool card here, THIS GAME POO POO PLATTER!! There.

Jk game's awesome better than FF15 too imo
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] FF7 remake discussion time!
Post by: -Ric- on 2020-04-12 05:20:59
Jk game's awesome better than FF15 too imo

15 gives me hope that 7R will have a world map. Or at least a gigantic open world. Hopefully without those INSANELY bad loading times though.
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] FF7 remake discussion time!
Post by: Mendelevium on 2020-04-12 05:22:56
Though I have not played it myself, I've watched a good friend of mine stream it from beginning to end. I am not a big fan of some of the little things that pop up in the game, but on the all the game seems to have a lot of effort put into. I just don't think Nomura is a very good director or writer. All the good things in this remake I am sure are in spite of him not because of him. He works best in a team that put chains on him. I am not bothered by the flashy combat, in fact parts of it look quite deep compared other games in the genre. I am just not a big fan of how spongey the enemies look.

I think the notion of it being a cash in is only part of the picture. A lot of effort and love went into making it. They were trying to please someone. It doesn't come across like some of the previous FF7 compilation pieces. At least to me.

I certainly wish we got mostly a 1 to 1 remake, but some of the expanded content and reemphasis on exploration of the expanded zones, I can't lie is very cool feeling. And certainly tickles the nostalgia. Looking up the skybox certainly is breathtaking, because it gives you the scale of midgar which is something the original couldn't do in a single frame (not to say the scale felt small in the original, because it didn't. The game felt f-ing massive).

A lot of the side quests look like blatant padding, but overall I'm impressed with the moment to moment stuff. Though I do wish they'd tone down some of the Nomura-isms, but it's no Advent Children at all. Things being cool for the sake of being cool is less common.

Now to get into my thoughts into stuff that are pure spoilers.

Spoiler: show
I am not sure I can get behind this "alternate timeline" thing. And ghosts of fate. At best I can ignore it, at worst it's so in my face it becomes annoying. I'd actually claim that the game is amazing looking for the most part up until the ending. The twist really comes off as Nomura trying to put his personal stamp on the project, rather than honor the original. Which could be cool if done correctly, but it wasn't advertised this way at all. I also don't trust Nomura when it comes to depth. He has the habit of treating his audience both like idiots and the smartest people alive, simultaneously explaining everything while explaining nothing at all. And now that the game can go into any direction because the timeline has been altered I am not sure I am that interested in what is bound to be a Nomura fueled story, rather than faithfully sticking to the original and expanding. I might be proven wrong, who knows.


So the whole thing has left me feeling mixed. I loved reliving my childhood nostalgia for a bit, but it just kind of fell flat for me personally. However, I don't think that in anyway invalidates the opinions of people who love it. More power to you :).

Title: Re: [SPOILERS] FF7 remake discussion time!
Post by: Az on 2020-04-12 06:58:35
Nobody’s rating should matter to you except for your own. If anything, it’ll offer extra insight, but it’s definitely not meant to persuade you or others to think differently. Learn that and you’ll avoid getting worked up over these “discussion” threads.
I agree. You should form your own opinions based on your own experiences. The people running this hate campaign for the remake in here haven't even played the game themselves and are basing their opinions on seeing a few minutes worth of footage of a 40+ hour game and are desperately searching for confirmation bias that supports their views, something befitting a 12 year old, not grown men who consider themselves to be intellectuals. It doesn't have to be one extreme or the other. Let's not act like children.
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] FF7 remake discussion time!
Post by: NxK on 2020-04-12 09:52:00
As to the overwhelming amount of positive reviews from professional reviewers, faithfulness to the original is not a criterion that critics apply or care about. Therefore, to them, how much FF7R sticks to the original plot, is probably of no importance. To be honest, I am not sure how many of them would even be able to tell whether it does or not stick to the original plot and to what degree. So, by completely discarding any considerations as to how closely this game really does resemble the original release from 1997 in terms of overall story or atmosphere, one might be able to understand how these reviewers come to their conclusions and consequently to their rave reviews.

The main problem, in my opinion, was the decision to split the Remake into several episodes. Maybe that’s the only way to feasibly do it, however, it does cause all kinds of issues that are glaringly obvious. In order to make this game palatable to people who have not played the original 1997 FF7, it must feel like a whole game to them, not one that only deals with the beginning, possibly not so exciting first quarter of the original game’s slew of events. As a result, the ending of FF7R probably has to have an ending and a final boss that awe the audience. I am afraid that this is why they did not choose Motorball as the final boss but something else. Even though Motorball may have been iconic in 1997, I don’t think it would have been something that would have felt like an inspiring end to this game for newcomers to FF7. One can clearly find elements of FF7 in FF7R that would only happen in FF7 at a much later point in the game. For instance, the final one-on-one scene between Sephiroth and Cloud, which is the very final fight of FF7, is now happening conveniently at the end of FF7R. I do wonder how they are trying to remake the rest of FF7, if they are already using up some of the most memorable moments you would not see in the original until much later in the game.

That even makes me wonder whether they are going to remake the rest of the game anyway. After all, this game is officially called “Final Fantasy VII Remake”, not “Final Fantasy VII Remake Episode I” or something similar. Assuming they did indeed intend to remake the rest of the original FF7 in additional episodes, wouldn’t it have made more sense to have called “Final Fantasy VII Remake” something like “Final Fantasy VII Remake Episode I”? Maybe they just did so for marketing purposes since, to be fair, pretending it’s a complete remake and hoping that some people might not have read about the episodic nature might boost sales. People who have never even played FF7 would, and I am really just guessing here, probably be more likely to spend money on what they expect to turn out as a whole game experience rather than a mere part to what they think might be only a first part to a trilogy or maybe even a tetralogy.

But maybe the naming “Final Fantasy VII Remake” was entirely intentional as the next episode will dramatically swerve from what would have been the second part of the original FF7. Based on the allusions in the ending of  FF7R, it seems not unreasonable to present this as the base case for what is going to be the next installment in the FF7R series.
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] FF7 remake discussion time!
Post by: The Black-caped Man on 2020-04-12 10:39:53
Quote
The people running this hate campaign for the remake in here haven't even played the game themselves and are basing their opinions on seeing a few minutes worth of footage of a 40+ hour game and are desperately searching for confirmation bias that supports their views, something befitting a 12 year old, not grown men who consider themselves to be intellectuals. It doesn't have to be one extreme or the other. Let's not act like children.

So first you say only respect your own opinion and then you go on shitting on everybody who hates this game calling them 12 year olds? ::)

Why would we have to spend tons of money for smth we know we don't like? And as far as I remember none of us tried to even expertly criticize detailed things we would only know after playing the game. We criticize first and foremost that its not a Remake, its a shit on the originals story and every major plot event and that is fact, or would you argue one has to play it to know that when its all right there in the cutscenes? Certainly not. And that is not what we expected or wanted. So why on earth is criticism not justified in that regard?

Also it is well known that the combat system is action based, not ATB like in the original. This is known for years now. If ppl (like us) don't like these things in general or at least not in a Final Fantasy, considering this was not like this in the original, then again criticism is justified.

Btw with about the same validity could we say that the ppl spending 60+ bucks on this game and like that shit are 12 year olds, not grown men who expect a game to have actual thought through design, balance, story-telling, character development, etc.

That you like this game is good for you but stop acting so high and mighty and condescending towards ppl that don't. Their opinion is just as valid as yours and is not based on things they do not know as all aspects that were criticized are directly there in the game, not made up or exaggerated. There is time travel, there is characters that don't die but should have, there is matrix like drama scenes that are just over the top you can watch them on youtube, there is major flaws in that new story that just doesn't make any kind of sense with the original. It's all there and wasn't made up by us. It was made up by Nomura.

If any, this is the forum of highest quality reviews and opinions of Final Fantasy games and RPGs in general. These are ppl that spent their life modding these games, playing them hundreds of times over and over again, discovering new stuff, and just thinking about these games and its characters, their reason to be and say smth, their behaviour in certain occasions more than anybody else in the world. And certainly more than the devs.

Todays game design consists mostly of graphics and I can tell you because this eats most of the programming work as it is BY FAR the most complex and tedious part when programming a game(as smbd with a degree in just that department of computer science you can take my word). The maths and work behind Ray tracing, multiple reflections, real time animations is OUTRAGEOUS. That's why the companies need most and their best ppl to work on that. And then it's natural that there is just not much personel left for actual story-writing and thinking these things through. Also at some point when you spent months/years until the animations look so real HD like in FF7R then your investors wanna see results and finally publish smth and make money. And what can you impress them most with at a press conference? Right, it's GRAPHICS because that's what every fat business idiot can see and judge wether it's good or not. That's what makes money and keeps companies alive. Sadly. This explains the strictly monotonous downward curve of stories and the strictly monotonous upward curve of graphics in games in the last 20 years. Ppl growing up with that or the ones that just weren't touched so emotionally by the RPGs of the 90s and early 2000s might not care and get used to the new era of gaming but others, like many in here, cannot.

And if after all these years a company promises an HD remake of the most iconic game in video game history that has touched us more than any other game, and the outcome is tons of stuff completely made up, probably made up on the spot because it just looks cool in a scene, altered story scripts and what not then yes, then we do not like this game and want to talk to others about this that feel the same. That is why we post here and we're entitled to. If you think the majority here are 12 year olds that just hate because they like hating...then why would you wanna post here? You don't seem attached to the forum in any way so why care? It seemed to be so important to just insult a lot of ppl here that you needed to do it......Do you see any of us going to forums/reviews of ppl where the majority likes the game and shitting on it? I for myself do not do that.

Title: Re: [SPOILERS] FF7 remake discussion time!
Post by: epsilon on 2020-04-12 12:14:50
Part of the problem here is that people are talking at cross purposes, since they come with different assumptions to the discussion. If you view a game as mere entertainment and you just want to have a fun time in the X amount of hours you spend on it, then some of the criticisms expounded will mean nothing to you; on the other hand if you want something more out of the experience, a simple thing like a crappy plot device will probably tarnish it. If you think there is no fact of the matter about the quality of a game, that all opinions are equally valid and there is no real knowledge to be had, then a criticism, any criticism, may start to sound like "invalidating your experience" (to paraphrase someone on the thread); on the other hand, if you do think there are objective standards through which the quality of a game is to be measured, then the first questions you ought to be answering are what are those standards and how are they to be gauged. If you think fidelity to the original story, maybe even the mechanics (turn based with ATB is very different from action RPG), is an important factor since after all the game does bear FFVII in the title, then the deviations will matter; if you are not that concerned with fidelity, a paltry resemblance to the original will suffice and any deviations will probably be a welcomed novelty.

In the original game, Jessie is a minor character with very few lines. Her last lines are spoken on the stairs to the plate, and are a recognition of the stark effects of her actions and an acceptance of her fate. Through acceptance, she gains dignity, atones and redeems herself, and in redeeming herself she redeems all mankind. This is all done in a few lines of text. Is this Shakespeare? No, not really, but shows solid craftsmanship, an awareness of tragedy and real human sympathy by giving what is a minor character a moment to shine.

It seems in the remake they give Jessie much more airtime, even some flirting with Cloud (from a love-triangle to a love-square?). Avalanche's actions are not really terrorism because it is Shinra that eventually destroys the reactors and causes all the death and mayhem. It seems Jessie will not die, so she will not have a tragic end but neither will she have her redemption. Is this in any way better? Does it flesh out a real character, or is it just padding the game with cutscenes and dialogue? Does it even matter? It depends on how you answer the previous questions -- which themselves are subject to rational discussion, I should add. With the caveat that I have seen very little footage, it seems to me there is a real loss here in story quality, in tragic pathos. But then I am not going to buy the game anyway -- not because of any ill will towards it, but because I only have a PC and with not a powerful enough graphics card, and I have better things to do anyway.
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] FF7 remake discussion time!
Post by: Izban on 2020-04-12 13:27:49
DLPB we get it you don't like the remake, you didn't like it when it was announced nothing has changed now it's released, most of your dislikes are subjective and that's ok but spewing vitriol isn't exactly useful or required, I will also add that reviews are also subjective and the majority of games journalists struggle to actually play games, but the average user review is still quite high reason being the game looks pretty,plays amazing and sounds amazing, with the low points being the voice acting and for some the story adjustments not all, I see it settling around 7-8 out of 10 amongst average Joe's, die hards have their opinions which fall in the love or hate almost exclusively over story

The black caped man, I can with 100% certainty say you have the entire wrong idea of how the battle system works, I've yet to see an adequate explanation of the battle system anywhere online, it is most definitely ATB based with action flair, it is effectively ff7 with positioning as a bonus layer of strategy required to master, it is in no way similar to ff15 or kingdom hearts, reactor 1 only just gives you a taste and that's only on the guard sentinel itself.

Also boss battles are only long if your aren't any good at the game or you approach the boss in the wrong way...assess is your friend., Once you git gud if your taking longer then 5minn on a boss you've hit it unprepared.

Only mechanical gripes I have are how long it takes to master revive material and the previously stated weapon upgrading
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] FF7 remake discussion time!
Post by: Az on 2020-04-12 13:34:23
So first you say only respect your own opinion and then you go on shitting on everybody who hates this game calling them 12 year olds? ::)
Actually, your reading comprehension has failed you. I'm not "shitting on everybody who hates this game," I'm "shitting" on people like you specifically whose opinions are based solely on watching a handful of minutes worth of footage and are now on a warpath, all while believing they're voicing an objective truth and that they should be taken seriously in the slightest. THAT is what makes you come off as children. I assume all of us with older accounts are in our 30s at this point, which makes this type of behavior even harder to believe. This is what I expect to see on the first page of /v/, not an old school FF community where I assume most have an IQ that exceeds two digits.

Why would we have to spend tons of money for smth we know we don't like? And as far as I remember none of us tried to even expertly criticize detailed things we would only know after playing the game. We criticize first and foremost that its not a Remake, its a strawberries on the originals story and every major plot event and that is fact, or would you argue one has to play it to know that when its all right there in the cutscenes? Certainly not. And that is not what we expected or wanted. So why on earth is criticism not justified in that regard?
You've described the game as a dull action game that's just flashy and devoid of depth multiple times now, so your expert opinion has gone beyond just criticizing the story changes, which you've also not done your research on as displayed multiple times in this thread. You've concluded that the script  itself (dialog, character interactions) and the character development is bad which you would have absolutely no knowledge of from watching a handful of cut cenes out of context from the tail end of a 40 hour game. Do you see why I think you're being silly and why anyone with a functional brain can't take this seriously?

Also it is well known that the combat system is action based, not ATB like in the original. This is known for years now. If ppl (like us) don't like these things in general or at least not in a Final Fantasy, considering this was not like this in the original, then again criticism is justified.
Just because something isn't your cup of tea doesn't make it objectively bad like you're claiming. There's good action-based combat and there's bad action-based combat. The combat in 7R is far from bad, despite the criticism I wrote in a previous post. It's certainly more in-depth than the original, as any action-based game inherently is by requiring at least a slight degree of skill and interaction to succeed. The original game certainly doesn't have any gameplay depth (it's flashy and fast-paced, but shallow and fun), so I'm not sure why you're even voicing this (baseless) complaint.

Mad that it's not turn-based despite never being promoted as such? That's fine, but if you want to criticize its various systems and mechanics you should do so from experience, not assumptions.

Btw with about the same validity could we say that the ppl spending 60+ bucks on this game and like that strawberries are 12 year olds, not grown men who expect a game to have actual thought through design, balance, story-telling, character development, etc.
See, there you go again making assumptions beyond your reach. If anything, this paragraph reinforces my original point. I also don't follow your reasoning in the slightest, and this makes the below quote even more ridiculous on your part.

That you like this game is good for you but stop acting so high and mighty and condescending towards ppl that don't. Their opinion is just as valid as yours and is not based on things they do not know as all aspects that were criticized are directly there in the game, not made up or exaggerated. There is time travel, there is characters that don't die but should have, there is matrix like drama scenes that are just over the top you can watch them on youtube, there is major flaws in that new story that just doesn't make any kind of sense with the original. It's all there and wasn't made up by us. It was made up by Nomura.
Yes, I'm the one being "high and mighty and condescending towards others", not the guy who's generalized every single person who doesn't share his opinion that 7R is a bad game. What was it you said, that we're all from that "Game of Thrones generation" and just swallow anything that's flashy and lacking in depth? Next-level self-awareness you have there.

"Their" opinions are not as valid as mine, because I've actually played the game to completion and can speak in-depth about every aspect of it. The last hour of the game is a mixed bag, but it doesn't invalidate everything that came before it. It's about the journey, not the destination, and the journey was highly enjoyable for reasons you and your kind have already written off as OBJECTIVELY BAD.

If any, this is the forum of highest quality reviews and opinions of Final Fantasy games and RPGs in general. These are ppl that spent their life modding these games, playing them hundreds of times over and over again, discovering new stuff, and just thinking about these games and its characters, their reason to be and say smth, their behaviour in certain occasions more than anybody else in the world. And certainly more than the devs.
What you're referring to is an echo chamber, and I'm sure most wouldn't appreciate being generalized or spoken for. What you're really saying is that certain people here are stuck in the past and hostile toward change. That doesn't sound like someone whose opinions you should value above more reasonable and level-headed individuals. As far as I can tell, there are multiple reasonable users here who are capable of thinking for themselves without clinging to one extreme or the other mindlessly. Are these people not part of this holy community of knowledgeable FF fans?

Todays game design consists mostly of graphics and I can tell you because this eats most of the programming work as it is BY FAR the most complex and tedious part when programming a game(as smbd with a degree in just that department of computer science you can take my word). The maths and work behind Ray tracing, multiple reflections, real time animations is OUTRAGEOUS. That's why the companies need most and their best ppl to work on that. And then it's natural that there is just not much personel left for actual story-writing and thinking these things through. Also at some point when you spent months/years until the animations look so real HD like in FF7R then your investors wanna see results and finally publish smth and make money. And what can you impress them most with at a press conference? Right, it's GRAPHICS because that's what every fat business idiot can see and judge wether it's good or not. That's what makes money and keeps companies alive. Sadly. This explains the strictly monotonous downward curve of stories and the strictly monotonous upward curve of graphics in games in the last 20 years. Ppl growing up with that or the ones that just weren't touched so emotionally by the RPGs of the 90s and early 2000s might not care and get used to the new era of gaming but others, like many in here, cannot.
Wow, it's almost like there are dedicated and specialized staff members who handle different aspects of development or something. You're also generalizing again, or under the impression that AAA development is all there is to the medium, or that every case is the same. Either way, it has nothing to do with the quality of writing unless you're implying that the programmers, animators, 3D artists and various game designers are too busy with their jobs to help write the script, which is pants-on-head retarded.
And if after all these years a company promises an HD remake of the most iconic game in video game history that has touched us more than any other game, and the outcome is tons of stuff completely made up, probably made up on the spot because it just looks cool in a scene, altered story scripts and what not then yes, then we do not like this game and want to talk to others about this that feel the same. That is why we post here and we're entitled to. If you think the majority here are 12 year olds that just hate because they like hating...then why would you wanna post here? You don't seem attached to the forum in any way so why care? It seemed to be so important to just insult a lot of ppl here that you needed to do it......Do you see any of us going to forums/reviews of ppl where the majority likes the game and shitting on it? I for myself do not do that.
They did call it a remake, and it is very faithful (character development, chain of events, locations, enemy design, overall aesthetic and on) up until the end of the game, but I called it deceptive marketing in my very first post. Either way, games - even remakes - should be judged on their own merits, and saying that FF7R is objectively bad in any regard is insincere and obviously fueled by an agenda, especially when coming from holier-than-thou observers.

You're generalizing again, by the way. This "us" you keep speaking about doesn't seem to include an awful lot of people based on this thread. My Qhimm account is 14 years old, by the way. Are you implying that I'm only here to insult someone?
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] FF7 remake discussion time!
Post by: The Black-caped Man on 2020-04-12 14:34:26
I could... respond in detail to this absolutely ridiculous post again but why would I....it all started with this "Ric" flaming Kefka who pointed out an obvious RIDICULOUS plot twist that not even a 10 year old would write. And when ppl come around so condescending and insulting it is natural to receive that back in their face.

My post is understood by those who do and not by those who don't. Period. No further point in argueing with ppl that just cannot face reality.

Btw your post again is full of personal insults while mine was written with a "one could argue" style of writing that doesn't head on attack ppl.

Quote
your reading comprehension has failed you

Quote
you're being silly

Quote
pants-on-head retarded.

Quote
Are you implying that I'm only here to insult someone?

So yes, you are solely flaming and insulting right now, that is also a fact. Now stfu pls.
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] FF7 remake discussion time!
Post by: Az on 2020-04-12 14:35:37
It's not faithful at all.  Please stop pretending that these fate creatures were in the original - or that major story points haven't been changed well before the end of Part 1.  They have.  Again - that is a fact.  It isn't faithful on any measurable scale.  Not the battle system, not the art, not the style, not the script, not the story.

And the end of part 1 departing so massively is the end of any and all arguments.  No fan wanted what they've done.  No fan asked for it.  And certainly no-one expected what they've done. It's not a remake - it's been falsely advertised and it's actually probably illegal what Square-Enix have done.
Please stop pretending that you read a single thing I said and that you didn't just get triggered by that keyword before continuing to spew your usual drivel in typical toxic DLPB manner. That post refers to you just as much as the other guy.  Like I said, up until the ending, the events can be summarized in exactly the same way as the original game.
Spoiler: show
Padding aside, Wedge surviving and the brief appearances of these arbiters that only tie in to the end of the game are the only major differences. I assume the other MAJOR plot point you're talking about is how Shinra allows Avalanche to blow up their reactors, while magnifying the blast in one case. The overall motive is still the same. Midgar is unsustainable. The new angle is that Shinra wants to go to war with Wutai again, and to this end, they use Avalanche and their actions as propaganda by saying they're funded by Wutai. Avalanche still has the same intent.

I also disagree about the art direction, especially as it pertains to enemy design. The slums are pretty boring to look at during daytime, but the city itself is very faithful to the original. The main cast is also very well realized and fleshed out in a faithful manner. I know you had an aneurysm about Aerith's dress being 5 centimeters too short, but that character is still very much the same innocent and playful girl found in the original.

Also, regarding your last post. This type of user reaction is very, very common on Metacritic. In many cases, review bombing gets out of hand and has to be manually reverted. Likewise, being a AAA game isn't enough to get high scores anymore and this viewpoint shows that you're out of touch. Only first-party Nintendo games remain suspect, and the Nintendo bonus has become a meme. We're living in a world where games like Sekiro win GOTY awards and are somehow mainstream despite catering solely to the hardcore. The vast majority of AAA games land in the 80 - 85 range. It was the case for both FFXV and Kingdom Hearts 3 as well, with equally big budgets and marketing campaigns and both of which were anticipated for over 10 years. It's nothing new and certainly not an exception in 7Rs case.

I could... respond in detail to this absolutely ridiculous post again but why would I....it all started with this "Ric" flaming Kefka who pointed out an obvious RIDICULOUS plot twist that not even a 10 year old would write. And when ppl come around so condescending and insulting it is natural to receive that back in their face.

My post is understood by those who do and not by those who don't. Period. No further point in argueing with ppl that just cannot face reality.

Btw your post again is full of personal insults while mine was written with a "one could argue" style of writing that doesn't head on attack ppl.

So yes, you are solely flaming and insulting right now, that is also a fact. Now stfu pls.
Yeah, no, that's not how an argument works. Your points aren't hard to understand, just incredibly silly and clearly driven by an agenda and inherent bias. Instead of "responding in detail," you chose to take "insults" out of context and proceeded to tell me to "stfu."
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] FF7 remake discussion time!
Post by: Mendelevium on 2020-04-12 14:41:31
@DLPB Your ATB gauge still fills, it only fills faster if you get hits.
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] FF7 remake discussion time!
Post by: The Black-caped Man on 2020-04-12 14:57:07
Yes cuz unlike you I dont feel the need of forcing my opinion on others while insulting them(good strategy btw)
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] FF7 remake discussion time!
Post by: Az on 2020-04-12 14:57:36
Yes cuz unlike you I dont feel the need of forcing my opinion on others while insulting them(good strategy btw)
Don't you find that incredibly ironic?
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] FF7 remake discussion time!
Post by: The Black-caped Man on 2020-04-12 15:03:22
No because I never said "hey user xyz your are silly cuz things are like this and that weh weh weh". I merely stated my opinion about the stupidity of ideas implemented in a game. The thing about jerking off to GoT was a respond to insults from Ric before that. So no, I feel completely calm and righteous:)
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] FF7 remake discussion time!
Post by: Mendelevium on 2020-04-12 15:12:36
People are allowed to like what they want. People are allowed to dislike what they want. No one is wrong. Even if you disagree with each other's preferences. It is ALL subjective.
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] FF7 remake discussion time!
Post by: The Black-caped Man on 2020-04-12 15:14:15
Absolutely agree.
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] FF7 remake discussion time!
Post by: Az on 2020-04-12 15:34:17
Spoiler: show
Combat System is a mess. I mean how could anyone think that combat system makes sense? If you don't hit, you don't get ATB, so if enemy is out of range you basically can't do anything, no use items no use of magics. Lot of damages taken without even noticing, ATB ruined if you get hit while doing an ability.


Is that true?  Yes. Or No.  Because if Yes - that's another reason why someone like me would not like this game.  Yes.  or No.
Your ATB gauge charges constantly and is sped up by attacking. You also have various materia to help speed up ATB, and spells like Haste greatly improve the charge rate. Distance management isn't an issue in the game with a few exceptions. Each melee character has a basic attack that closes the distance when you're far away, and targeting flying enemies changes your standard attacks into an aerial combo. There are a few cases of enemies flying out of bounds, like high up in the Sector 7 Ruins and only Barret and Aerith can hit them with regular attacks while the rest have to use magic or items.

Your limit breaks, for some idiotic reason, can be interrupted because they have a long windup time and there's not much you can do about it unless you wait until you've staggered the enemy to use them. This also applies to the -Ga spells and requires positioning if you're expecting an interrupting attack. There's also a Classic Mode included that essentially does all the basic attacking automatically while you only select the ATB actions. This also greatly reduces the HP the enemy has. It may increase the ATB charge rate as well, but I wouldn't know.
People are allowed to like what they want. People are allowed to dislike what they want. No one is wrong. Even if you disagree with each other's preferences. It is ALL subjective.
100%. I'm not saying it's not allowed to dislike the game, I'm saying it's incredibly stupid to formulate an opinion if your sole experience with it is watching a few minutes of footage somewhere, especially drawing conclusions like the entire script being "objectively bad." That's just agenda driven nonsense, not an opinion to be taken seriously. Even how one perceives the events at the end of the game is subjective. Was it what I wanted? No, I wanted things to play out differently, but they could've gone in a different direction. Either way, I'll play the next part because I overall enjoyed the gameplay and character interactions.

It's really not all subjective.  Liking and disliking is.  Flaws with this remake are not.
Only the naming convention is a flaw since it's clearly not a remake. The changes are subjective, not objective flaws, and if you think they are, that's an opinion.
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] FF7 remake discussion time!
Post by: Mendelevium on 2020-04-12 15:42:06
I think the only thing any of us can say with objectiveness is that this remake doesn't follow the original 100%. And whether that's correct or wrong is completely subjective. The combat system is amazing to some and garbage to others. All of it is preference when it comes to art, and video games are art. While yes, there are objective metrics created to measure these things with, especially when it comes to literature and creative writing, but even those metrics are based on how someone feels.

I agree with some of your points about the remake DLPB, but I don't think you can exercise opinions as 100% objective.
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] FF7 remake discussion time!
Post by: The Black-caped Man on 2020-04-12 15:46:18
Quote
Distance management isn't an issue in the game with a few exceptions. Each melee character has a basic attack that closes the distance when you're far away, and targeting flying enemies changes your standard attacks into an aerial combo

For example just a thing like this(automatic z-targeting and gap closing auto attacks) are things that I do not find attractive in a game (its like being held by the hand and extremely limits the freedom too much for my taste), therefore am I entitled now to dislike the combat system in general and not just because its a change on the original? It being a change to the original is already enough for me to not buy the game because I know it's just not smth I seek in a Final Fantasy.
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] FF7 remake discussion time!
Post by: epsilon on 2020-04-12 16:04:08
This subjective excuse creeps into every single debate and every time I call nonsense on it because it is.

What is even more bizarre is that no one even bothers to argue the position, they just state it. But absent an argument why should anyone accept it? And if one would try to assay an argument, that would be implicit acknowledgment that the matter can be adjudicated rationally, which is precisely what the position denies. It is likewise subjective, nothing but emoting, so it cannot be expressing a judgment, much less a true one.

My suspicion is that no one really believes this. They retreat into extreme relativism because neither do they like to see their opinions challenged -- and having poor taste, or being ignorant of great art, is not an indictment on the person's character', just like being ignorant of mathematics is not -- nor can they rationally articulate and defend them. But of course there are objective standards by which we measure the quality of any art piece, and therefore there is real knowledge to be had. Not of course, knowledge in the sense of the modern empirical sciences, and not at their level of rigor and precision, but still knowledge.
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] FF7 remake discussion time!
Post by: Mendelevium on 2020-04-12 16:11:01
I understand what you're saying DLPB. And that's not what I am trying to get across fully.


Your example of Cloud turning into a beatle is quite surreal, I get your point. I agree there are objective metrics to measure the quality of a story. I studied that very thing in University.

Nomura is not to my taste. I don't think he's a good director or storyteller. And I personally find some of what he did in the remake disgusting to my taste. I agree the sidequests are boring padding. I agree that negatively affects the pacing. People are still allowed to love it. And I think they should be allowed to love it without disrespect. There are ways to state your opinions without alienating people.

It's as you said liking and disliking are subjective. However, the way you go about posting your viewpoints is done in a way that doesn't leave room for anyone elses'. That's what I take issue with. I think people's viewpoints on something that is ultimately a work of art should be respected. Even if you disagree. I respect your views, and even agree with some of them DLPB.

Opinions are indeed weighted, and people's observal realities will differ from person to person. Some of the plot points added might hit home with someone more than if they've lived a similar experience. Especially with some of the added Avalanche stuff.

Spoiler: show
The ending is a bit difficult for me to defend, but after having seen it... It is way more vague than some posts would lead you to believe. Zack being alive isn't made 100% clear. It could just as easily be interpretted as Aeris/Aerith having a vision from the lifestream.


It being lowbrow doesn't make it objectively bad.

No not all opinions are equal. However, respect of other's opinions should be. Especially in a communal space. And this applies to many people in this thread, not just you DLPB. So please don't think I am antagonizing you. I actually quite enjoy your posts, when you're being civil. Some people poke you, and I don't agree with that either.

I hope my points are a little more clear now.

Edit: apologies for the woeful grammar. It's 2AM here, my ability to English properly has diminished.
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] FF7 remake discussion time!
Post by: Mendelevium on 2020-04-12 16:20:07
I honestly think the good stuff in the remake is in spite of Nomura not because of him. As creative lead, this is his baby. He okay'd everything. I'm confused by some of the choices made, but as someone who isn't going to be playing the remake it doesn't affect me personally. I very much think people are on a nostalgia high for the most part, and we'll have a situation where it will dawn on people the gravity of the changes made. It could easily go either way in terms of public consensus. Personally, I am not a fan. I can also see why people would find it compelling, because it changes up what they know. Personally, I think Nomura just wanted to put his personal stamp on everything - without much respect to what was already there. That is my opinion though. It is not the end all be all.


Also apologies for repeated words and grammar mistakes, my brain is tired. Haha
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] FF7 remake discussion time!
Post by: Az on 2020-04-12 16:24:48
It's not an opinion to state there is bad storytelling, bad voice acting, bad pacing, and crappy fetch quests.  These can and are being demonstrated.  This subjective excuse creeps into every single debate and every time I call nonsense on it because it is.  If Cloud turned into an alien dung beetle and entered Sephiroth's brain through his ear and then proceeded to control Sephiroth from that point on - it's objectively poor storytelling.   It doesn't matter what word you give to it or this remake - it's lowbrow crap.   If we go by the logic that "opinons are all equal" then what I've just said is every bit as valid as a believable story.  You can't honestly with a straight face think that's the case.

Also, opinions are weighted - ad often based on facts and observable realities.  Shouting the word opinion is not a valid counterargument.
It absolutely is an opinion to state that the voice acting is bad, especially in this case. You must have very little experience with voice acted media as a whole if this is something you sincerely believe. Pacing is also subjective and often involves world building at the expense of the plot slowing down. Whether you enjoy that or not is based on how immersed you are in the setting, and of course, this entire point hinges on actually playing the game and experiencing it for yourself. Just because you dislike the plot device used at the end of the game doesn't necessarily make it bad, and certainly not objectively so. I agree that the quests are objectively terrible, but that's where it ends.

There only nonsense here is you presenting your opinions as fact.
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] FF7 remake discussion time!
Post by: -Ric- on 2020-04-12 16:32:06
Spoiler: show
Combat System is a mess. I mean how could anyone think that combat system makes sense? If you don't hit, you don't get ATB, so if enemy is out of range you basically can't do anything, no use items no use of magics. Lot of damages taken without even noticing, ATB ruined if you get hit while doing an ability.


Is that true?  Yes. Or No.  Because if Yes - that's another reason why someone like me would not like this game.  Yes.  or No.

 :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:

Imagine crapping so badly on a battle system without even actually knowing the basics of it.

This thread has gone to crap. A bunch of people crapping on the game against a bunch of people that find the game enjoyable.

Also imagine stating that an average score of 8 (our of 10) is bad.

For example just a thing like this(automatic z-targeting and gap closing auto attacks) are things that I do not find attractive in a game (its like being held by the hand and extremely limits the freedom too much for my taste),

Yes, good thing that in the original you have to just spam the ok button.

Don't you find that incredibly ironic?

Don't waste your time. Some of these people are objectively insane.
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] FF7 remake discussion time!
Post by: The Black-caped Man on 2020-04-12 16:38:42
Quote
Yes, good thing that in the original you have to just spam the ok button.

Not in my personal version which was modded for years I guarantee you that:) This also wasn't about the difficulty of the game per se, rather that this mechanic is not appealing to me because it limits the freedom in an action based fight.
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] FF7 remake discussion time!
Post by: Mendelevium on 2020-04-12 16:42:46
I can see why people would love or hate both systems. After watching my friend playthrough the remake on a stream, the combat is certainly not as hack and slashy as it looks. You have to make a lot of mid-combat choices. And if you don't have a plan, you die.

While I do wish Square stuck with something turn based, it doesn't fully upset me either. It did for awhile.

I think there are tasteful ways to make changes to the original and still be faithful modernization of the original. Resident Evil 2 Remake is fairly close to that mark for me. I loved that game, despite missing some things from the original. I thought it was a faithful modernization.

I think FF7 could have been the same thing. The plot device at the end, and foreshadowed throughout is my main gripe - and what it means for the rest of the series. At the moment is it is a bit vague. I might end up reserving full judgement until all the parts are released. However, at the moment my aprehension is palpable.
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] FF7 remake discussion time!
Post by: Manakaiser on 2020-04-12 17:49:22
Well I really enjoy the entertainment this topic provides, love to read the back and forth.

now on topic, Well ive played enough to give my final opinion. I highly enjoy the game for what it is. Sidequests suck, Narrative aspects are relatively bad across the board, combat is very fun, visuals are great despite some flawed textures which i can overlook and if you can accept that bosses seem to be a bit spongy only for "the sake of it" then they are very well done.

Overall im satisfied due to lack of expectations and never having cared for the original. =)
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] FF7 remake discussion time!
Post by: -Ori on 2020-04-12 18:32:40
and never having cared for the original. =)

Lets lynch this man. I have torches and 1 pitch fork.
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] FF7 remake discussion time!
Post by: -Ori on 2020-04-12 18:58:00

This thread has gone to crap. A bunch of people crapping on the game against a bunch of people that find the game enjoyable.


if it has, you can thank yourself for being a contributor

there are about 5 posts hanging around this forum from you that calls someone (usually DLPB...) "special" or "on the spectrum" (i'd be more than happy to link them all if you'd like)

that's really cool of you to blast the entire special needs community to win your final fantasy argument

people should be able to express their differing opinions without ANY insults, and frankly -Ric-, you have NO leg to stand on to call out others for this

your posts pour fuel into the fire almost every time
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] FF7 remake discussion time!
Post by: Manakaiser on 2020-04-12 19:13:51
Lets lynch this man. I have torches and 1 pitch fork.

i nonetheless enjoyed it for what it was for me, more of the ff formula i came to love with ff6 :P
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] FF7 remake discussion time!
Post by: -Ori on 2020-04-12 19:27:16
i nonetheless enjoyed it for what it was for me, more of the ff formula i came to love with ff6 :P

FF6 is the ultimate proof that graphics should take a back seat to script, gameplay, music, etc

games on the SNES stand the test of time
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] FF7 remake discussion time!
Post by: -Ric- on 2020-04-12 20:13:06
if it has, you can thank yourself for being a contributor

there are about 5 posts hanging around this forum from you that calls someone (usually DLPB...) "special" or "on the spectrum" (i'd be more than happy to link them all if you'd like)

Why are you trying to make it sound as if I want to/would hide them? Link them all you want, I couldn't care less lol. I've posted multiple times, including in response to moderator warnings that I stand by everything I've posted.

your posts pour fuel into the fire almost every time

That is true. I am trying to be less toxic and no, I'm not being sarcastic. That is why I will not address the rest of your post. If you're so keen on researching my previous posts, you will absolutely find the reason why I'm "mean" towards certain users. I'm going to stick to the topic from now. FF7R-related comments only.
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] FF7 remake discussion time!
Post by: The Black-caped Man on 2020-04-12 20:20:15

FF6 is the ultimate proof that graphics should take a back seat to script, gameplay, music, etc

games on the SNES stand the test of time
Signed
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] FF7 remake discussion time!
Post by: EQ2Alyza on 2020-04-12 22:18:07
Opinion vs fact. Objective vs subjective. Like vs dislike.

It's all fine in a DISCUSSION. But do not, I repeat, DO NOT result to personal insults for justifying your arguments. It's like sl1982 said, "It's not what you say but how you say it." We all need to be above that kind of behavior and act like the civil adults we are.

If the personal insults continue, don't instigate it by responding with your own insults. Use the report button and be on your way. The Rules for these forums are clear. Consider this everyone's freebie warning.
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] FF7 remake discussion time!
Post by: -Ric- on 2020-04-12 22:19:08
FF6 is the ultimate proof that graphics should take a back seat to script, gameplay, music, etc

games on the SNES stand the test of time

Something we can all agree on. 6 is one of the best games ever made.

Opinion vs fact. Objective vs subjective. Like vs dislike.

It's all fine in a DISCUSSION. But do not, I repeat, DO NOT result to personal insults for justifying your arguments. It's like sl1982 said, "It's not what you say but how you say it." We all need to be above that kind of behavior and act like the civil adults we are.

If the personal insults continue, don't instigate it by responding with your own insults. Use the report button and be on your way. The Rules for these forums are clear. Consider this everyone's freebie warning.

Got it.
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] FF7 remake discussion time!
Post by: gjoerulv on 2020-04-13 00:11:28
I can see why people would love or hate both systems. After watching my friend playthrough the remake on a stream, the combat is certainly not as hack and slashy as it looks. You have to make a lot of mid-combat choices. And if you don't have a plan, you die.

While I do wish Square stuck with something turn based, it doesn't fully upset me either. It did for awhile.

I think there are tasteful ways to make changes to the original and still be faithful modernization of the original. Resident Evil 2 Remake is fairly close to that mark for me. I loved that game, despite missing some things from the original. I thought it was a faithful modernization.

I think FF7 could have been the same thing. The plot device at the end, and foreshadowed throughout is my main gripe - and what it means for the rest of the series. At the moment is it is a bit vague. I might end up reserving full judgement until all the parts are released. However, at the moment my aprehension is palpable.

Depends on what exactly you mean by modernization. Something is lost from the original RE2 with the addition of free camera. It's not entirely the same type of game anymore. Although, I think they would have made RE1-3 with free camera etc, if they weren't "limited". Probably. I dunno.

In the case of FF7 though, considering battle mechanics only, it was certainly not limitations that made Square chose what type of game to make. Something is gone when you remove battle mechanics entirely (duh), and what you get instead in FF7R is something that feels completely different. Natural evolution? No, this is not the "natural evolution" of turn based games, and it's certainly not a faithful adaptation of it. It could probably be an entirely different type of action game and some people (probably the same people) would still call it a faithful adaptation. Not saying action games are bad btw.

The impression I get however, from reviews and so forth, is that this is indeed thee natural evolution off FF7.
I wonder how people would react if FF7R-2 changes genre again to, lets say, FPS. Would that be bad? Not a natural next step? Why is change bad? Why is it ok for FF7R to change genre from the original, but not FF7R-2 to change genre from FF7R? Personally I would find it interesting if SE does that. To see how people react.

And on the new plot stuff. FF7 originally was a bit too convoluted, imo. The new story elements kinda escalates the convolution exponentially. And is, at least at the face of it, questionable at best, but comes off as horribly juvenile storytelling. It's how I would picture a mid schooler write a FF7 fanfic if they played too much kingdom hearts.
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] FF7 remake discussion time!
Post by: EQ2Alyza on 2020-04-13 00:20:01
Spoiler: show

https://youtu.be/aRN2bKyf8So

“Nailed it. I know. Thank you. Moving on.”  :-D


Coming in, I thought I’d be cringing at the VA dialog because I’ve always had my own imagination of the character’s personalities. But, I’ve been pleasantly surprised by most of the characters. Biggs is the only one I’m not feeling any connection with so far.

The impression I get however, from reviews and so forth, is that this is indeed thee natural evolution off FF7.
I wonder how people would react if FF7R-2 changes genre again to, lets say, FPS. Would that be bad? Not a natural next step? Why is change bad? Why is it ok for FF7R to change genre from the original, but not FF7R-2 to change genre from FF7R? Personally I would find it interesting if SE does that. To see how people react.

That would be a hard one to swallow for me. I’m not into the FPS genre, so the RPG elements would have to really shine.
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] FF7 remake discussion time!
Post by: Tekkie.X on 2020-04-13 01:19:57
It's odd with Biggs because Gideon Emery is a decent VA but it's more the script for Biggs, it really doesn't have much to it with no real chance to stand out.
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] FF7 remake discussion time!
Post by: EQ2Alyza on 2020-04-13 02:45:21
I think you're right. The script (and maybe director) doesn't give him much to shine upon. Reminds me of Hayden Christensen for the Star Wars prequels. Good actor with mediocre writing and direction to work with.
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] FF7 remake discussion time!
Post by: Mabinog on 2020-04-13 05:02:02
You know, aside from a few things like Roche and the Watchmen of Fate, I'm actually enjoying some of the new content they added to expand the story.

Spoiler: show
Visiting Jessie's house in the plate was pretty neat. And chapter 6 had a cool concept for a level, where you're directly underneath the plate suspended above the slums. The backgrounds in this game are really beautiful. And I heard good stuff about the Church and Wall Market portions of the game, even though I haven't gotten there yet.


I'm a little torn. When the game is accurate to the story I think it's very good stuff. But I know by the end the story is going to take the story in a very different direction, and it's concerning. Guess we just gotta wait and see.
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] FF7 remake discussion time!
Post by: Dark Phoenix on 2020-04-13 06:26:40
Yup and this is why the Final Fantasy franchise has been ruined since FFX. It’s just not even worth talking about anymore I give up on this company and all it’s new games. Square will continue to make horrible games and these idiots who support them will continue to do so and defend them to the end so it just is what it is. The true fans can only finally throw in the towel and let this company die off with time. We always have our SquareSoft masterpieces to enjoy the new age of “fans” will never understand that.

Final Fantasy died when Hironobu Sakaguchi left.  It's basically been a zombie ever since.
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] FF7 remake discussion time!
Post by: Dark Phoenix on 2020-04-13 06:32:12
FF6 is the ultimate proof that graphics should take a back seat to script, gameplay, music, etc

games on the SNES stand the test of time

The ridiculous thing about this is, SE KNOWS how to do good remakes.  They did multiple great remakes of FF4 (excluding the DS remake and it's ports, which are shit, much for the same reasons as this; changing things that didn't need to be changed, although at least there they had an excuse), a great remake of FF5 and a great remake of FF6.  Not to mention decent remakes of FF1, FF2 and FF3.  Why the fuck can't they get the 3D remakes right?
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] FF7 remake discussion time!
Post by: Manakaiser on 2020-04-13 06:41:27
ff6 remake being great Is something i cant agree with (although I do admit they made a fair effort). They killed the grim atmosphere of the original due do the new visuals. I commend the fact that they DID give it new visuals, but sadly I think they were bad and didnt capture the originals spirit in many areas, especially the horrible towns (enemy sprite improvements were very welcome and well done btw so those are excluded from the criticism).

Sorry for the off topic btw, I wont mention ff6 any further ><
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] FF7 remake discussion time!
Post by: The Black-caped Man on 2020-04-13 10:18:05
Quote
They did multiple great remakes of FF4 (excluding the DS remake and it's ports, which are strawberries, much for the same reasons as this; changing things that didn't need to be changed, although at least there they had an excuse), a great remake of FF5 and a great remake of FF6.

I would like to say smth about the Gameboy advance versions here:

I really appreciated the additional content especially in FFV Advance because:

a) it has NO effect on the main story
b) it's completely optional to do
c) it's additional content on the gameplay side, new class, new skills, great
d) the new superboss was already mentioned to be the greatest threat of all times a thousand years ago and while it may storywise seem a bit lackluster that there's just an underwater temple containing an entrance to the void where you meet him it is also a pleasure that they did not choose some random thing as a superboss but tried to really implement somebody worthy of rivaling the main villain in coolness and strength(thus making him worthy of the Neo-Exdeath theme). All in all content-wise an extremely good job and I play the Advance versions to this day.

However I also have to note a thing I made thread about a decade ago already. Some new additions, which is not new content but was rather meant as a nice visual addition completely makes me nod my head. The avatars shown when characters talk just do not resemble their sprites IN THE SLIGHTEST....especially ppl like Galuf are just entirely different and there is really no reason why. Newer remakes carried on this trend and it makes me a bit angry, I always have to either ignore that or mod it.....

Not to mention the name changes in the translations.....she will always be Cara or Kururu.....
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] FF7 remake discussion time!
Post by: Dark Phoenix on 2020-04-13 13:30:35
ff6 remake being great Is something i cant agree with (although I do admit they made a fair effort). They killed the grim atmosphere of the original due do the new visuals. I commend the fact that they DID give it new visuals, but sadly I think they were bad and didnt capture the originals spirit in many areas, especially the horrible towns (enemy sprite improvements were very welcome and well done btw so those are excluded from the criticism).

Sorry for the off topic btw, I wont mention ff6 any further ><

You're thinking of the Steam version; I'm thinking of the GBA version.  The only problem with the GBA version is the brightness, which was necessary for the screen, and can be fixed with patches.  And actually, the Steam version is much better if you use Project AtmaWeapon (https://steamcommunity.com/groups/ff-modding/discussions/10/1733216893877338368/?ctp=7) on it.  You can even get the SNES sprites back.

However I also have to note a thing I made thread about a decade ago already. Some new additions, which is not new content but was rather meant as a nice visual addition completely makes me nod my head. The avatars shown when characters talk just do not resemble their sprites IN THE SLIGHTEST....especially ppl like Galuf are just entirely different and there is really no reason why. Newer remakes carried on this trend and it makes me a bit angry, I always have to either ignore that or mod it.....

Head avatars are based on Amano's original concept artwork, though I agree they don't match the sprites well.
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] FF7 remake discussion time!
Post by: Manakaiser on 2020-04-13 16:00:25
You're thinking of the Steam version; I'm thinking of the GBA version.  The only problem with the GBA version is the brightness, which was necessary for the screen, and can be fixed with patches.  And actually, the Steam version is much better if you use Project AtmaWeapon (https://steamcommunity.com/groups/ff-modding/discussions/10/1733216893877338368/?ctp=7) on it.  You can even get the SNES sprites back.

Head avatars are based on Amano's original concept artwork, though I agree they don't match the sprites well.

I have created the worldmap and the shimmering fix within atma weapon :P Its not what im talking about its mainly the town/some dungeon graphics that ruin it for me as the lighting and artstyle in alot of them is off, and many assets are half assed. And the snes sprites clash with the artstyle of the rest of the game and the non snes sprites are too friendly/cartoonish/dunnohowtocallit for me. It just doesnt work for me i guess.

And yes I was thinking steam as i dont really consider the gba version a remake at all. Its a port with some extras (which are admittedly good extras!) :P
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] FF7 remake discussion time!
Post by: LeonhartGR on 2020-04-13 19:25:10
Sexy Tifa Cosplayer playing theme on piano! (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qttJj4ATK1E)
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] FF7 remake discussion time!
Post by: The Black-caped Man on 2020-04-14 20:35:29
Quote
Its a port with some extras (which are admittedly good extras!) :P

Now make a graphics overhaul and it is the perfect remake like FF7R should have been:)
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] FF7 remake discussion time!
Post by: Dark Phoenix on 2020-04-14 22:57:34
Now make a graphics overhaul and it is the perfect remake like FF7R should have been:)

That's pretty much what the Steam version is; a graphics overhaul built on top of the GBA version (the GBA ROM is even contained in the program archive).  But as Manakaiser says, most of the "upgraded" graphics are shit.  There's a pretty good rundown on it here:

https://www.fortressofdoors.com/doing-an-hd-remake-the-right-way/
https://www.fortressofdoors.com/doing-an-hd-remake-the-right-way-ffvi-edition/

As soon as he mentioned the broken graphics, I remembered what he was talking about.
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] FF7 remake discussion time!
Post by: The Black-caped Man on 2020-04-15 14:28:46
Nice article that shows my agony with FFV^^
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] FF7 remake discussion time!
Post by: mr_nygren on 2020-04-16 00:39:07
I wrote on Youtube previously that i didn't like the kid-friendly focus of the Remake. It's pissing on the older fans who wanted a more mature game. It's not realistic after a terrorist bombing to not have blood. Or in the Shinra Headquarters. In the original game there were blood.

But not only this.. When the team is beaten they are all standing on their knee's despite having zero health. They didn't even let the characters lay unconscious on the ground.. This makes the battles seem childish and without any real danger for Cloud and the others. No one will die and as such they aren't real "life and death"-battles. But even if they were just unconscious in the original game and mistaken for dead I do still believe it's hurting the seriousness of the battles when they won't even lay down.
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] FF7 remake discussion time!
Post by: mav on 2020-04-16 08:37:40
Just finished the game and figured I'll finally check this thread to see what others on these forums think about it. Honestly I'm pretty surprised at the amount of negativity and even hostility some people here have towards the remake, its creators and fans who enjoyed it, all that mostly coming from folks who didn't even try the game and base their whole opinion on watching trailers and bits of gameplay by someone else. I would expect this level of discussion in a Youtube thread, not on Qhimm's.

If anyone cares here are my 2 cents about this game, coming from someone who's beaten the original several times both back then and recently, watched dozens of hours of videos and streams about it and spent hundreds of hours translating, modding and making tools for it. I'm obviously a big fan of the original game. It's not an exaggeration to say that it shaped me as I am today, because it sparked my interest in programming, which led me to choosing programming as my future career. Also let me just preface it by saying that I believe that what you expected before you even saw it will hugely affect whether you will like the final product. For me, from the very beginning I didn't really expect much of this game, knowing the Square Enix of today. What I expected was a new game in the FF7 universe, a reboot if you will, with modern graphics and mechanics. I just wanted a fun game that would make me nostalgic a bunch of times about 1997. And with that in mind Square delivered, and exceeded my expectations.

First of all I love almost all story changes. Almost all of them fall into one of two categories - expanding on something that was only hinted in the original or totally new elements that still fit the overall narrative. The only two things that doesn't fit them are the Watchmen of Fate and what happened in the last 2-3 hours of the game. I'm still not sold of those, but I'm open on learning more about them.

From a technical point of view this game looks and sound beautifully. Seeing some places make your jaw drop (note that's coming from someone who bought a PS4 Pro just for this game, so I don't have much comparison to other games). Music is beautiful and very thematic, it changes dynamically based on situation - for example in boss fights music will change pace as the battle progresses. Voice acting is superb (reading that someone said it's "objectively" bad made me chuckle), especially Barret's voice acting. And last but not least - the menus are SUPER fluid. They are a joy to work with. Even if the UI can't keep up with you game will still register your button presses and you can fly through the menus one you learn their layout.

Overall my personal score of this game is probably around 9 out of 10. It's not perfect, it has its flaws, both story-wise and technical flaws (I did encounter one game-breaking bug plus there were some texture issues here and there, but nothing major), but for me personally, it was totally worth the money, and I'm excited to both play it more on Hard mode and to see the next parts when Square finally releases them in 5 or 10 years ;D.
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] FF7 remake discussion time!
Post by: mav on 2020-04-16 10:35:27
"the only thing" - retconning the entire story / making it a crazy illogical sequel is somehow a minor thing that couldn't possibly piss people off.

Being pissed at some company releasing a new game is something I just can't understand. It's a new game. If it's not right up your alley then just don't play it, but also don't piss on people who did and did enjoy the experience. They didn't destroy anything. They didn't take down the old game from the stores and remotely uninstalled it from people's computers. They've just released a new game in the FF7 universe with the same characters and mostly similar plot elements. And it's not that they've promised us they will release a remake following the original story 1:1. From the very beginning they showed that they want to reimagine the original story and that's exactly what I expected from it, and got in the end. Sure, having the original FF7 with updated graphics and sound would be nice, but in my humble opinion what we got is much better than that. If I wanted to play a game that's exactly like the original but with better sound and graphics I can still play the original with community mods :).
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] FF7 remake discussion time!
Post by: Caledor on 2020-04-16 12:07:43
People are pissed off at the lie, not at the new game. They asked for a remake for 18 years and it was promised as such for the last 5 years. Now we're getting a reboot instead.

Careful though, nobody wanted or expected a carbon copy of the original. It's not a problem how Cloud and Aerith gain the dresses in WM, the important thing is that they do so.
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] FF7 remake discussion time!
Post by: epsilon on 2020-04-16 12:16:28
Sure, having the original FF7 with updated graphics and sound would be nice, but in my humble opinion what we got is much better than that. If I wanted to play a game that's exactly like the original but with better sound and graphics I can still play the original with community mods :).

This strikes me as a fair position, but as I stated here http://forums.qhimm.com/index.php?topic=19696.msg274987#msg274987 (http://forums.qhimm.com/index.php?topic=19696.msg274987#msg274987) it depends on the assumptions you bring to the discussion. One can turn the tables and ask the question: the original FF7 endured for more than 20 years as these forums are a testament. Novelty is the shallowest of aesthetic experiences and shinyness wears off fast; replay value, a vibrant modding scene that shows the enduring value of the original vision, etc. are the true testament to a game's quality. Will the remake endure 20 years? Only History, the finest and most accurate aesthetic judge we ever had, will tell.
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] FF7 remake discussion time!
Post by: EQ2Alyza on 2020-04-16 12:34:53
Novelty is the shallowest of aesthetic experiences and shinyness wears off fast; replay value, a vibrant modding scene that shows the enduring value of the original vision, etc. are the true testament to a game's quality. Will the remake endure 20 years? Only History, the finest and most accurate aesthetic judge we ever had, will tell.

I'm more aligned to this. I have enjoyed the FF7:R (mostly) for its moment in time, but I still believe another 20 years from now the original will be dearest to my heart. The reason we continue loving certain things in life is from its original experience we had with it. Trying to relive any of those moments is great and all, but it never recaptures the original. I imagine 20 years from now, the younger kids experiencing FF7:R and the FF7 universe for the first time will argue the same.
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] FF7 remake discussion time!
Post by: mav on 2020-04-16 13:09:51
People are pissed off at the lie, not at the new game. They asked for a remake for 18 years and it was promised as such for the last 5 years. Now we're getting a reboot instead.

Did they promise a 1:1 remake, though? I know I personally didn't expect one, from the first trailer it was pretty apparent that they will take many liberties in terms of the story and combat, so that's what I was expecting from them for last couple of years.

I'm more aligned to this. I have enjoyed the FF7:R (mostly) for its moment in time, but I still believe another 20 years from now the original will be dearest to my heart. The reason we continue loving certain things in life is from its original experience we had with it.

Agreed, that's the case for most of us who played the original when we were young, so nostalgia drives us. This is a totally new game that couldn't possibly bring us the exact same feelings like the original did. But for me personally it came really close. Especially the music got me real hard.
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] FF7 remake discussion time!
Post by: Manakaiser on 2020-04-16 15:16:10
Anyone else here hates aeriths VA with a passion (and her face design but im likely alone on that one)? I skip most of the cutscenes focused on her at this point because i dislike her voice so much. Not even necessarily because its a bad job from the speaker (it might be but thats not the reason i hate it), I really cant put my finger on it. She just doesnt work for me :p

Minor complaint though, really like the remake overall despite the few flaws (flaws aside from story which is arguably silly but doesnt bother me)!
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] FF7 remake discussion time!
Post by: unab0mb on 2020-04-16 17:56:49
Anyone else here hates aeriths VA with a passion

YES. I don't know why they picked a random YouTuber to do professional voice acting for what would turn out (despite anyone's personal feelings) to be an extremely popular game, and for such an iconic character at that. Something about her...just doesn't bring in the high quality "feels" I expected. Barret? On point.
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] FF7 remake discussion time!
Post by: cbudd on 2020-04-16 23:23:00
As a non-PlayStation owner I can’t buy the game.  As a long time FFVII fan, though, I really wanted to see how the remake would look and where the story would go.

I’ll admit, I have always been a fan of the original game, but have invested zero time in any of the additional games or movies.  My knowledge of them is only passing, and I can’t say that the things I heard were all that encouraging, so I never pursued them.  I did read a let’s play on Dirge of Cerberus by the Dark ID that was pretty hilarious, though.

With that said, I watched a play through of the remake with an open mind.  My opinions are as follows...
Spoiler: show

Graphically, I thought it was very nice to look at.  I don’t have a frame of reference for comparing it to a lot of other AAA titles, but from an average Joe it was visually interesting.  The slums were kind of boring by nature, but Wall Market was quite a bit more interesting in my opinion.  The destroyed Sector 7 was a great addition and really gave the devastation much more gravity. 

Sound:  no complaints, but hard to mess up in a game like this. 

Voice acting:  My opinion is that the voice acting was actually really good.  This is always touchy, especially when we are dealing with a situation where there have been prior expectations set for how these characters should sound.  For me, I haven’t been exposed to other voice actors for these characters so it was only what I imagined they would have sounded like reading the text. 

As far as the main group...

Cloud:  I liked his voice.  Granted, he is pretty non-emotional in general, but he was believably emotional at the right times.  He never jarred me as being too high or low pitched, which is usually my issue with voice acting.

Barret:  I’ll be blunt:  he needed to sound like Mr. T, and that’s what we got.  He’s over the top, but it’s completely in line with the character.  At the same time, he hits the right notes on the emotional parts.

Tifa:  it took a chapter for her to grow on me, but by the end I feel like she was the right voice for the character. 

Aerith:  This one is tough.  She is a bubbly sounding VA, and in certain situations it felt like she couldn’t quite get the serious parts right.  At the same time, she was really good in other parts.  Just a little inconsistent, but not enough to totally break my immersion.

Red XIII:  My least favorite.  Not sure what I expected, but he remains the one I am least comfortable with.

The rest:  there are a lot of characters in the game, and in general I thought they were pretty good for the most part.  I think that people complaining about the voice acting acting are generally being too critical, but again it’s always very touchy and personal in my opinion.

The story:  overall, it was entertaining to me.  I definitely think that the Avalanche team benefits greatly from the remake.  In the original, they are basically just set pieces for Barret’s backstory.  While the game wants you to feel for them when they are killed, it is hard to be too invested because they are gone early and don’t get much chance for characterization.

I think that the Cloud flashbacks are well done, although the characters are seemingly oblivious to his episodes, especially towards the end when he basically passes out after rescuing Aerith from Hojo.

In general, the small story changes didn’t bother me, and in many cases I thought that they improved and expanded on the story.

Finally, I do have a few criticisms and storylines that I am not sold on or have concerns about...

#1- Avalanche members surviving.  As much as their deaths in the original are somewhat empty, having them survive in this one is almost worse because their deaths actually have more meaning in the remake.  The story is better with their loss.

#2- The whispers.  I understand the point, it’s just not a trope that I enjoy in storytelling.

#3- while I liked the shock value of killing Barret, the Sephiroth reveal and killing of the Shinra president in the original is more powerful.  Losing that for a Hojo research dungeon was not a good trade off.

#4- I’m not sure what the implications of the ending are... I am reserving judgment for the time being.
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] FF7 remake discussion time!
Post by: Caledor on 2020-04-17 01:24:51
Did they promise a 1:1 remake, though? I know I personally didn't expect one, from the first trailer it was pretty apparent that they will take many liberties in terms of the story and combat, so that's what I was expecting from them for last couple of years.
Never said I expected a 1:1 remake. Cause that's no remake, that's a remaster. I won't even bother discussing gameplay aspects, cause those are not what decides remake vs reboot. Only the story does. And a good 85% of the game is a proper Remake.

Spoiler: show
But if you add an entity that has prior knowledge of what has happened in the original, pieces from the original are thrown in your face at every attempt, actively interferes when things deviate, and finally the game makes you destroy said entity to "open up the future", well, that's a reboot.


That said, IMO everything unrelated to those whispers, aka a good 85% of the game is worth a solid 8.5~9. Gameplay is good, plot expansion is good, visuals are stunning, character interactions are good and faithful, plot changes are actually good. I'm thinking of the entire wall market quest here. It's ok, that's the kind of change i expect from a Remake. This game is good and enjoyable.

Spoiler: show
The reboot part is complete shit though. I could've been interested in a "what if" alternate version of FF7, but the way they handled it, with 3 nonsense useless boss fights in a row where enemies are just HP sponges, 3 IQ lines like "he's the bad guy" "yeah!", "destiny" repeated a hundred times... how can that be considered good storytelling by anyone's standard? The quality drop in the narration is huge.

Also if i had any interest in a "what if" it's now gone. How can i trust them if that's what they come up with when left to their own devices?


That said, the way they used those whisperes makes the overall vote drop to 7.5~8.
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] FF7 remake discussion time!
Post by: gjoerulv on 2020-04-17 11:42:50
.

Fast reply as I don't have time now.

Not pissed, but disappointed (and ammused at the "whisperers" stuff,  lmao, what a mess).

FF7R is a blatant marked-research game with some crazy, over the top kingdom hearts crap thrown in.

Added/changed/retconned story: There are good things here, but mostly main-stream cringe. Would work great in a cartoon with a returning villain each episode. Like TMNT or something.

Graphics, music and overall technical presentation is good.

Music is all good afaict.

The gameplay is not my cup of tea, so I'm not the right person to judge. I tire of these kinds of games very easily. I'm still baffled that not more people are disappointed that this "remake" is another genre then what it's based on.
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] FF7 remake discussion time!
Post by: The Black-caped Man on 2020-04-17 14:41:35
Quote
Did they promise a 1:1 remake, though? I know I personally didn't expect one, from the first trailer it was pretty apparent that they will take many liberties in terms of the story and combat, so that's what I was expecting from them for last couple of years.

Combat yes. When was it ever "apparent" in the slightest that they would take "many liberties in terms of the story"? As in the main story arc? They may do that and may have hinted it on unnecessary things like Tseng not appearing with a helicopter to show the captured Aerith but it being shown on a screen, ok, fine.

But letting characters survive that die, let Shinra blow up their reactors which are their income along with probably hundreds of security robots, hard- and software in there (which is again far different from blowing up sector 7 where there is nothing but junk that doesnt even belong to Shinra (and in addition they knew the Avanalanche hideout was somewhere in sector 7 at that time which makes blowing it up perfectly logical)), give everybody DBZ matrix abilities like flying, telekinesis (and oh don't forget Cloud slicing the Shinra main building in half with his freaking sword), implement time travel and Watchers of fate implying that all that happened in the original was fate anyway and at no point where you in the slightest danger because everything had to be like that....is just utter crap. It shows that the current devs either have never paid attention to the originals story at any point in time or not even played it or just don't care because this new stuff sells.

Quote
FF7R is a blatant marked-research game with some crazy, over the top kingdom hearts crap thrown in.

Sums it up pretty perfectly.
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] FF7 remake discussion time!
Post by: Izban on 2020-04-18 07:28:31
40hrs in and I've yet to experience anything that is just pandering to the masses via market research.

That being said there are plenty things I have issue with like the lack of player character ai adjustment, the weapon upgrades having little to no drawbacks for building them poorly, some optimisation issues on older hardware.

Story wise it's close enough to original that if you exclude the last 2hrs and a couple of 15min blocks it's the same story just fleshed out a bit, the more I play the more I have fewer issues with the watchmen/whispers, the more I think about it they are there to allow for amazing DLC that doesn't effect main story continuity
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] FF7 remake discussion time!
Post by: -Ori on 2020-04-18 16:09:59
40hrs in and I've yet to experience anything that is just pandering to the masses via market research.

That being said there are plenty things I have issue with like the lack of player character ai adjustment, the weapon upgrades having little to no drawbacks for building them poorly, some optimisation issues on older hardware.

Story wise it's close enough to original that if you exclude the last 2hrs and a couple of 15min blocks it's the same story just fleshed out a bit, the more I play the more I have fewer issues with the watchmen/whispers, the more I think about it they are there to allow for amazing DLC that doesn't effect main story continuity

they already split into 3 parts to make it 3x more expensive than the original, if they release paid dlc for each one, the whole game will cost more than the ps4 it is played on... ridiculous

i'm waiting for a price drop
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] FF7 remake discussion time!
Post by: unab0mb on 2020-04-18 18:24:04
they already split into 3 parts to make it 3x more expensive

Genuinely curious where that information is coming from? I don't recall seeing anything from SE that says how many parts it will be, but everyone keeps repeating that it will be in 3 parts. Is there something official from SE where they've said this? Would be good to know how many of these we'll be buying (or not).
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] FF7 remake discussion time!
Post by: -Ori on 2020-04-18 18:30:29
Genuinely curious where that information is coming from? I don't recall seeing anything from SE that says how many parts it will be, but everyone keeps repeating that it will be in 3 parts. Is there something official from SE where they've said this? Would be good to know how many of these we'll be buying (or not).

its not official, its just assumed to be 3 just because its obviously going to be more than 2, and there will be outrage if they do 4 or more
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] FF7 remake discussion time!
Post by: cbudd on 2020-04-18 19:11:52
YES. I don't know why they picked a random YouTuber to do professional voice acting for what would turn out (despite anyone's personal feelings) to be an extremely popular game, and for such an iconic character at that. Something about her...just doesn't bring in the high quality "feels" I expected. Barret? On point.

I do want to point out that this is a little disingenuous.  She is still a professional actress, even though she does do a lot of Youtube stuff as well.  I wouldn't say that she is totally "random."

https://www.imdb.com/name/nm4628145/

Title: Re: [SPOILERS] FF7 remake discussion time!
Post by: cbudd on 2020-04-18 19:16:31
I don't really see the problem with the game being broken up into multiple pieces, as long as each piece is compelling and makes sense. 

What is wrong with having two FFVII games?  Or Three?  Or ten?  As long as each game is individually satisfying and you are getting your money's worth, I just don't see a problem.  The original one didn't cease to exist with the release of the remake.  In fact, I would not be surprised to see some resurgence of interest for the original with the remake having now been released.  Evidenced by the fact that I just downloaded Reunion R6 for a fresh run :)
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] FF7 remake discussion time!
Post by: sackyachouchie on 2020-04-18 20:34:05
FF7 is my all-time favorite game. I play the game through basically annually, so not as hardcore as some people around here, but my love for the game is great. I have played Dirge of Cerberus and watched Advent Children, and was disappointed by both. Over time, I have grown to hate all FF7 compilation material. I have a special dislike for the Kingdom Hearts appearances of Cloud, which I blame for the source of "emo Cloud", where he is mopey and edgy, which is a complete departure from the original.

You guys remember Sephiroth?

With my FF7 background out of the way, I went into FF7 remake with low expectations. I expected the game to follow the story beats of the original, but with a few new additions here and there. I knew it was likely going to be worse than the original, but as long as they didn't F up a few key moments, I would be fine.

Key moments from Midgar to not F up:


You guys like Sephiroth, don't you?

Gameplay: Playing through the game was not bad, actually. The combat was worse than turn-based in my opinion, but good enough I still enjoyed it. The biggest fatal flaw, IMO, is the boss fights. As good of a spectacle as they are, the pacing is severely hampered by the in-combat cutscenes. Each boss has around 3-4 cutscenes that interrupt the flow of battle. Even worse, they put a hard cap on damage (you cannot drive a boss's health down past the 75% in a single attack, the game makes the cutscene play out first). Trying to get a boss's stagger meter up? Better do it before the arbitrary in-battle cutscene that resets it. Manage to get that stagger? Don't waste a big attack on it or you'll reach the health cap and waste it. You naturally want to save a limit break for when a boss staggers for massive damage, but the game goes out of its way to make sure that rarely happens or is borderline useless when you manage to pull it off.

Sephiroth is pretty cool.

New minor story additions: the new additions to the story were pretty good leading up to the end of the game. Visiting Jessie's family's house was nice, and would have made the Avalance group dying off all the more impactful.

Minigames: were fun and done pretty well, IMO.
Why do I keep mentioning Sephiroth?

Sidequests: complete garbage. Fetch quests and monster-slaying quests with no imagination, thought, or care put into them. Complete filler garbage.

Voice acting: for the main cast was really well done except Zack and Aerith, whose respective voices felt amateurish and out of place. Voice acting for NPCs and side characters ranged from mediocre to complete trash.

Well you like when I bring up Sephiroth, don't you?

Dialogue and writing: dialogue between main party members was actually pretty good and faithful to the original characters leading up to Shinra HQ. Writing was generally good because it followed the beats of the original story. That is until the end. One big complaint though, Sephiroth is shoved in your face and shows up all the time with no reason or justification, destroying any interest or mystique the original set up for him. Square Enix knows you love him, they don't know why though. But here is again! You like it don't you? You filthy little fanboy...

Ending of the game: Nomura unleashed. Double-dose injection of Kingdom Hearts and Advent Children out of left field into the end. Completely unjustified "EPIC!!!" set pieces and unimaginative plot twists. Alternate timelines, retconning every meaningful death, obliterating all storytelling techniques, etc. Watch any video analysis from the youtube channel Resonant Arc (I recommend the following: https://youtu.be/YDF5GorOauY (https://youtu.be/YDF5GorOauY) and https://youtu.be/B7t0E-OsN3I (https://youtu.be/B7t0E-OsN3I) and https://youtu.be/A9JZrZ7VROs (https://youtu.be/A9JZrZ7VROs) ) and watch in amazement and disbelief that all story-telling magic of the original is disregarded in the remake. All setups and payoffs are cut, and Nomura-isms are inserted.

In summary:

If you have no experience in the FF franchise and have yet to play any FF games, this game is a mediocre action and adventure that is as likely to make you a fan as it is to validate your current skepticism of Japanese-styled RPGs. 7/10

If you like the FF13 franchise and all the time-travel/alternate timeline bullshit, and you internally orgasm with every Kingdom Hearts plot twist and big heartless baddy, you will probably love this game. If you every wanted to play the Sephiroth fight scene from Advent Children, this game randomly has that too. Plus a copy of the fight scene from the end of the original. In space! 10/10

If, however, you are only a fan of the original because of the expert way it told its story, and the methods it used to set up characters and plot twists with payoffs that borderlined on magic, then stay away from this game. It is not a remake, it should have been labeled FF7 Nomura's Final Mix 432/83 Days in a Week 1.5 Edition. 5/10





Title: Re: [SPOILERS] FF7 remake discussion time!
Post by: -Ric- on 2020-04-18 22:51:48
but everyone keeps repeating that it will be in 3 parts. Is there something official from SE where they've said this?

There is no "official" word but 3 is a pretty fair guess.

Also, 60$ for a piece of entertainment that keeps you busy anywhere from 50 to 80 hours is pretty fair. I've paid more than that for 3h concerts that ended up being far less entertaining.

Besides there are discounts, price drops and the game will have resale value. If money is an issue, you could absolutely get most of it back.
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] FF7 remake discussion time!
Post by: mav on 2020-04-18 23:21:35
I prefer a game that has quality - the original game is leaps and bounds ahead of this ... thing.  We shouldn't accept mediocrity at $60 a part.

How you can pass judgements saying that it's 'mediocre' without even playing it is still a bit beyond me.

This game has quality. Playing it was a great emotional roller-coaster for me. I laughed, I cried, I was excited, confused, sad and then happy. Easily worth $80 I spent on it. I'm almost 50 hours in and I'm still having loads of fun with it. If next parts are anywhere as close as good as this one, I will buy them without a blink in the eye.
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] FF7 remake discussion time!
Post by: Izban on 2020-04-18 23:51:48
People running through it on easy are finishing it in 25hrs, there is a YouTube rip of the story content that clocks at 15hrs.

For every $10aud I spend I want a minimum of 1hr use or 1 required use(tools) on easy you get 10hrs gameplay and 15hrs of cinematic either way you look at it I've got my money's worth because I've enjoyed every minute and at 40hrs unfinished on normal which is around 15more hours then I got out of ff15 and about on par with my average ff7 playthrough, the whispers are growing on me as I previously stated

People are suggesting 3 games because midgar is about 1/3 of the text in game from memory
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] FF7 remake discussion time!
Post by: destroyedweapon on 2020-04-19 00:26:06
Story and gameplay aside, the game really shows the potential of Unreal Engine 4, and is a free open engine. I wonder what is the modding potential of this game if it comes out for PC when is complete, I guess 5 more years? being an open engine helps a lot with this. Would SE stop me with a cease and desist if I made a ff7classic mod on top of this? I would mod the first mission for fun/study and love for this game, with dialogs in text and all that.
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] FF7 remake discussion time!
Post by: Mendelevium on 2020-04-19 00:34:20
I replayed the original in December. Midgar was about 1/10 of the time experience. Never really thought about how much text it took up compared to the original. My playthrough was a fairly standard 40 hour affair with minimal grinding.

After having a lot of time to digest the ending, and the overall gameplay experience that I viewed... I don't hate it in theory.

Spoiler: show
I dislike anything that adds timeline bullshit to something that didn't need it.


To me that is a lazy plot device unless done in a proper and compelling way. This was.... A lot of Nomuraisms. I am not a big fan of Kingdoms Heart, and the ending had those storytelling tropes written all over it. I could find a "what-if" and an alternate "retelling" quite compelling if it was done by a writer and director I trusted. Nomura is neither of those things. Worst of all to me is now  he has essentially lifted up the chains of the original's plot and severed them. I am a bit apprehensive of where the next parts are going with that in mind. He has free reign to turn this into another mess like the what is it... ten Kingdom Hearts games? And I dont think the the enigmatic spectres of fate will ever stop bugging me.

The ending and spectres aside, I don't have too many gripes with the minor changes made to the plot. In fact that's how I would want a remake to be done tastefully. Characters get a lot of expansion, and the NPC hubs like the sector 7 slums and especially Wallmarket look amazing (if not quite as charming as the handdrawn backgrounds of the original, but certainly far more gritty). The place looked legitimately lived in. A lot of work, effort, and polish went into the visual presentation of this game. The graphics in Square games have never really been a sticking point for me (at least not in the past 5 to 10 years).

My main gripe is the zones seem too big in some places. The sewers in particular. I can ignore shitty side quests, I expected those - but the game spends a lot of mandatory time in these expanded zones that add little to the narrative. Maybe it is more fun to play through, but even the friend I was watching stream it said some of it was needless and exhausting and he just wanted to get to the next story beat. The original game had stellar pacing, and I am sad to see that is something that is lost.

Overall I am not too terribly torn up that they are splitting it into parts - I just want each part to be compelling and content rich. Nomura has a penchant for padding, buildup, minigames, and fairly lack luster and long winded payoffs with Kingdom Hearts in mind. So as I said before, I am tremendously apprehensive where the next parts would even go. Nomura isn't really known for respecting a player's time or intelligence.

As it stands from a viewer's perspective the first part of this remake looks like the first 90% of the game would be enjoyable for me - especially reliving that childhood nostalgia but expanded upon and deepend in parts. It's the ending and needlessly large sub-areas that I can't really agree with. I'd say from just viewing my friend stream it the game.... The game would be a 7 out of 10 for me up to Jenova in the Shinra building. Everything to do with Jenova and after is a much lower score from my own metric. So that first 90% the game while not the best score still looks perfectly playable to me and quite good. I just can't really get behind the ending and call it respectful or tasteful to the original

Spoiler: show
I feel like Nomura could have done this what-if scneario without involving a time traveling Sephiroth or as my friend puts it "anime-bullshit" that cheapens the narrative buildup to that point.


I just want them to make a decent FF16, which I don't think will ever happen for me. I kind of want a break from gaming remakes at the moment.

So for me it's really mixed! To those of you who liked it, I am really happy for you! Legitimately. I kind of wish I could be in your camp.
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] FF7 remake discussion time!
Post by: Caledor on 2020-04-19 01:45:24
Midgar is exactly 24% of the original game text.
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] FF7 remake discussion time!
Post by: Izban on 2020-04-19 02:50:31
How much of the total game text is side-quest related out of curiosity
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] FF7 remake discussion time!
Post by: gjoerulv on 2020-04-19 03:37:07
40hrs in and I've yet to experience anything that is just pandering to the masses via market research.

The fact that they changed it into an action game is alone "pandering to the masses".
The storytelling is, for the most part, also easy on the masses. One could go in depth here, but let's just say, it's nothing wrong enjoying a main-stream story like this. The original also had a lot of "pandering to the masses" going on. No need to pretend it didn't.
Design choice, story beats, gameplay, is all there mainly due to marked research. Most, if not all, AAA companies does this. It's no big secret. The only thing I think is not heavily influenced by is all this kingdom hearts stuff. But kingdom hearts is a commercial success so... "Hey, Nomura those KH stuff you made were pretty successful, can you put some of that stuff in?"

There are risks involved though. I would say the most risky move SE has done here is splitting it up into multiple games. It can backfire hard. Depending on sales they may decide to end it early and pretend that it was the plan all along. To be honest, I don't think they have a complete story ready yet. But at least they haven't promised X amount of games like Disney promised ep 7-9, which I don't think need to explained how hard failed as a story.

If they continue to being somewhat "faithful" to the original I'm guessing the next games will do good overall. But if they decide to go all in KH crazy... welp, not easy to say what'll happen. SE will probably look at feedback to decide how much to tone down the KH stuff in the naxt game.
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] FF7 remake discussion time!
Post by: Izban on 2020-04-19 08:08:47
I hardly think making it an active rpg is base on market research.... As the majority of action RPGs are fairly niche groups that enjoy them, as are tactical action games so why would they put the effort into creating a new subgenre
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] FF7 remake discussion time!
Post by: Mendelevium on 2020-04-19 08:45:22
I kind of get the impression Square thinks turned based RPGs are out. That part of it is missguided to me, because just look at how successful things like the Persona series is? I think it is entirely Square wanting to "modernize". Which is fine, there is nothing wrong with them making it an action rpg in theory.

It's just the game Nomura wanted to make first as a consultant and now as a creative director after the firing of CyberConnect2. Though none of that has enough documentation to make real claims about. It's just what's been working for him until now, why change? I think its the mentality itself that is missguided. However, they are ultimately going to make the games they want to play - as a business and as creative professionals. As long as the game is fun, has content that is mostly satisfying, and I all around like I will be okay.

Sadly, the ending of this particular game fell really short for me. It is the one thing I couldn't overlook or forgive to have an all around "okay fun experience." Endings are paramount, and different people are going to take it differently. It didn't land with me, but given how popular Kingdom Hearts is it will probably land well with some people - especially those who never played the original.
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] FF7 remake discussion time!
Post by: gjoerulv on 2020-04-19 12:01:09
I hardly think making it an active rpg is base on market research.... As the majority of action RPGs are fairly niche groups that enjoy them, as are tactical action games so why would they put the effort into creating a new subgenre

Welp all I can say, do some research.

Now, not all of these are exact ARPGs like FF7 pr se, but still not that far off either.

The Elder Scrolls
Diablo
Red Dead Redemption
The Witcher
Dragon Age
The Last of Us
Borderlands
Mass Effect

To mention some. They have all outsold FFs, or was/is at the very least close contenders.
What turn based games outsold these, and/or is in direct contest? Not many. Pokemon perhaps.

And you have action games like Call of Duty, PUGB, GTA, Fortnite, etc, all outselling FFs and other popular traditional turn-based RPGs too by a rather huge margin.
FF as a franchise is almost caught up by Assassin's Creed as a franchise when it comes to sales (counting all games including re-releases and spin-offs). Considering FF has been around 20 years more than Assassin's Creed, that's telling SE's market team something.

SE has since the PS2 days pushed FF in the action direction to be appealing to more people.
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] FF7 remake discussion time!
Post by: Izban on 2020-04-19 14:18:26
RPGs as a whole aren't real popular they are a very niche when you bring in sub genres, puritans hate action RPGs and argue over whether ATB or tactical consider RPGs then you have the rps-rpg fanboys or the pokenubs who can't play anything with more then  type advantages who rage when type advantages have to be figured out, then you have the mmorpgers who's life is consumed with there particular addiction and the fpsrpgs which aren't really RPGs cause hand eye coordination actually matters and lootathons... So yeah creating a new sub-genre is goes against common sense or market research.

Basically the typical rpg fanboy picks a subgenre to obsess over, and whinge when there is any divination from there ideal
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] FF7 remake discussion time!
Post by: gjoerulv on 2020-04-19 15:35:30
I fail to see the logical connections here; have SE created a new sub-genre? Please explain.

FF7R IS made into an action game, because that's where the money is. Same thing with FF15. The trend in sales goes that way, or rather have never shifted. I'm not saying that the devs works against their wishes. I'm sure many of them, if not all of them are totally hyped about FF7R FF15 and so on. But that's besides the point.

The whole concept of RPG in gaming is rather vague anyway, but most of the games I listed are usually labeled as action-RPGs. FF7R is hardly a new genre.
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] FF7 remake discussion time!
Post by: -Ori on 2020-04-19 18:59:18
SE has since the PS2 days pushed FF in the action direction to be appealing to more people.

SE has pushed FF in the action direction ever since the S added the E

the problem is SE makes games for the japanese market, and if the rest of the world doesnt like it, thats fine (the porn-y action rpg)

squaresoft made playable (well-written) books, thats how i see it
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] FF7 remake discussion time!
Post by: -Ric- on 2020-04-20 01:48:25
Finally had time to finish the game.

Spoiler: show
The ending is... Different indeed. I personally don't hate it but I can't say that I love it either. It's safe to say part 2 will make or break the game.
Most of the story changes/additions before Shinra HQ were fine. Nothing that messed up the story. Infact, some parts were pretty well expanded on and felt better than the original. (Keep your pitchforks down folks!)
The final battles were pretty fun and exciting though. So were a lot of the expanded areas. Not all though, the sewers, train graveyard and the experiments section of Shinra HQ were all pretty aggravating.
The music is a mixed bag for me... some tracks are really good while others are pretty crappy.
The battle system is a win for me. But the weapon customization is lacking.
 


Overall, had a good time. Some things could be better while others were pretty great. I'd give it a solid 8/10 and will definitely go for the Platinum trophy.
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] FF7 remake discussion time!
Post by: gjoerulv on 2020-04-20 02:10:02
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lABCD6so2OY (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lABCD6so2OY)
xP
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] FF7 remake discussion time!
Post by: cbudd on 2020-04-20 14:25:35
I pass judgement because I have eyes and ears and can see and hear crap voice acting and an insanely childish script - and very poor battle mechanics inflated by adding HP amounts - the most lazy way of programming battles ever.

If you like this game, it's fine - but I have higher standards. A lot higher.  And certainly, I find it more than foolish to shell out $180 for a full game and in no sane reality should that be considered acceptable.

I'm not trying to be argumentative or sway your opinion here - I am just legitimately curious.  What makes the FF7R script "childish" in your eyes?  It seems to me that the story itself (up until the ending) stays fairly true to the original, with some necessary expansions and additions that you have to have in order to make Midgar a 40 hour affair.  I didn't notice anything particular with the dialogue that bothered me outright.  There is definitely some JRPG/Anime sappy dialogue here and there, but that was true of the original FF7 as well. 

I already gave my thoughts about the voice acting earlier, but to reiterate in general I thought it was pretty good.  This is always going to be very personal, so I can definitely understand it not working for some people.  Thinking about it a little more, the only thing that bothers me with the voice acting (which seems to be a direction issue/design choice) is the constant "grunting" and "huh?" stuff that goes on.  It's very reminiscent of Metal Gear to me...  I feel like it may have made some sense in the past to give a little more insight into the characters with limited facial expressions, but small movements in the faces of the FFVIIR characters are really expressive and the extra noises are kind of distracting in my opinion.
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] FF7 remake discussion time!
Post by: Dark Phoenix on 2020-04-20 14:29:42
What's wrong with it is we don't get a complete game that makes sense.  We get a bloated, cat rat quest matrix stunt weird spin off -   We don't get a quality release.  We get a money making exercise - which then reinforces the next mediocre money spinner.  So it never ends.

I prefer a game that has quality - the original game is leaps and bounds ahead of this ... thing.  We shouldn't accept mediocrity at $60 a part.

As someone who thought the original game was somewhat mediocre... This is complete trash.  The parts that I actually LIKED about it, torn out to pander to the masses.  This thing no longer holds anything positive for me.

Welp all I can say, do some research.

Now, not all of these are exact ARPGs like FF7 pr se, but still not that far off either.

The Elder Scrolls
Diablo
Red Dead Redemption
The Witcher
Dragon Age
The Last of Us
Borderlands
Mass Effect

To mention some. They have all outsold FFs, or was/is at the very least close contenders.
What turn based games outsold these, and/or is in direct contest? Not many. Pokemon perhaps.

And you have action games like Call of Duty, PUGB, GTA, Fortnite, etc, all outselling FFs and other popular traditional turn-based RPGs too by a rather huge margin.
FF as a franchise is almost caught up by Assassin's Creed as a franchise when it comes to sales (counting all games including re-releases and spin-offs). Considering FF has been around 20 years more than Assassin's Creed, that's telling SE's market team something.

SE has since the PS2 days pushed FF in the action direction to be appealing to more people.

SE has for at least a decade now gone from being one of the leaders on the RPG front, to being one of the biggest followers.  Other companies innovate, and SE simply borrows pieces from their games without understanding why people like them.  I posted this in response to how garbage FF15 is:

Quote
The problem is, when it comes to the Final Fantasy series, Square-Enix has changed the wrong things and held on to the wrong things.  FF15 LOOKS like someone wanted to create a modern-style RPG with a world somewhat like Earth, and then one of the higher-ups said "No, no, no!  This is FINAL FANTASY!  Where are the Behemoths?  The Malboros?  The Tonberries?"  They need to stop jumping on every fucking bandwagon other RPGs have done ("What's popular this year?  MMORPG's?  Let's make this game play like an MMORPG! (FF12)", "What's popular this year?  Final Fantasy 7?  Let's steal from it, but merge in terrible battle mechanics! (FF13)", "What's popular this year?  Open world games like The Elder Scrolls and the new Zelda?  Make this an open world game! (FF15)"), stop trying to turn Final Fantasy into Kingdom Hearts (seriously, was ANYONE asking for Final Fantasy to become action-oriented at any time?), and try to figure out why the original games in the series were successful.  Because they're killing this series, and have been pretty much since the end of the Playstation era.  FF10 sold well, but it wasn't a good game.  12 was better, but it was clearly changed at the last minute to appeal to... I don't fucking know who, 12 year old girls?  13 was a trainwreck.  And I'm ignoring the MMO entries, because I'm not an MMO player.
You don't need to keep the series the same and let it stagnate and die, but if you're going to change it, PLEASE put some thought into the changes you're making!  Changing it for the sake of changing it (or to add new bullets in the game description) is always fucking terrible.
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] FF7 remake discussion time!
Post by: -Ric- on 2020-04-20 15:32:44
FF10 sold well, but it wasn't a good game.  12 was better

That's a terrible opinion.
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] FF7 remake discussion time!
Post by: Manakaiser on 2020-04-20 16:09:18
That's a terrible opinion.

agreed; in fact apart from story, ffx was actually fantastic imo. mechanics and endgame was top notch imo.
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] FF7 remake discussion time!
Post by: The Black-caped Man on 2020-04-20 16:24:57
I wouldn't call it a "terrible" opinion but I also disagree. Since the debate between the combat systems would probably be endless as they are just entirely different I'll focus on the story alone. FFX had still a good main story and a really good twist in the end that made everything that happened have sense(smth that FF games after that never had). Yes Tidus is not a cool protagonist, he's often annoying and lost but I think that is also normal and believable for a 17 year old whose entire world he knew was crushed and he was thrown into this "other" world...but the way he narrates the story while you play it was very good and really made you "feel" you're in this game, this universe now. FFXs characters had a good reason for what they were doing at all points in time as did their villains have(Seymour especially but also Sin, Jecht and Yevon in general).

That is the complete opposite in FFXII: The characters have little to no reason for being in this story at all(with the exception of Bash and maybe Ashe). But especially Vaan is so useless and plays absolutely no role for the story, it really dissappointed me hard the first time I played through. Same for Penelo, Balthier and Fran. They are just not relevant for the war, the Nethecites or have any real....reason to fight against Vayne other than "We don't like evil....we have to stop it". Hell even Gabranth has a deeper personality and story than all the previously mentioned ones.  Balthiers only story relevant sentence ever is "oh yeah Cids my father"....wow....and not even when you kill Cid is there any deeper interaction, just...nothing.

Vayne on the other hand was what I would call a fantastic villain. Similar to Darth Sidious he plays political games to ascend to the top, manipulates and eventually gets rid of all obstacles while still keeping the public behind him. To me, he was who carried the story all by himself. But in the end, that is not enough for me to label the story of a game that involves all characters "good". Through Vayne it rose to mediocre though.

The protagonists(and really all of them) just lacked depth...background....childhood memories, what they did in their life before the game starts, etc. You could sum up each of their story arcs before and what they do during the game in 1-2 sentences. You cannot do that with FFVII-FFX characters, they always had complex and well thought through storylines and they often also "evolved" during the games.
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] FF7 remake discussion time!
Post by: -Ric- on 2020-04-20 16:31:18
Vayne on the other hand was what I would call a fantastic villain. Similar to Darth Sidious he plays political games to ascend to the top, manipulates and eventually gets rid of all obstacles while still keeping the public behind him. To me, he was who carried the story all by himself. But in the end, that is not enough for me to label the story of a game that involves all characters "good". Through Vayne it rose to mediocre though.

I never understood the hate Vayne gets. Sure, he doesn't blow up the world or summon meteors, and he doesn't have a 5 meter long sword but the character is great. A strategic genius, ruthless, cold blooded, 100% focused on his task. Plus everytime he speaks, no one's skipping that.

10 is still a better game though.
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] FF7 remake discussion time!
Post by: The Black-caped Man on 2020-04-20 18:29:17
Vayne gets hate?
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] FF7 remake discussion time!
Post by: Dark Phoenix on 2020-04-20 22:15:47
agreed; in fact apart from story, ffx was actually fantastic imo. mechanics and endgame was top notch imo.

Sorry, but FF10 was the game that ended my streak of buying the latest FF as soon as it came out, because I didn't find it engaging in the slightest.  It was also the first in the series I never bothered to finish.  I only played the first 15 or so minutes of FF12 and realized I wasn't going to like it, either, and since then I stopped playing the new games in the series entirely.

Also...

That is the complete opposite in FFXII: The characters have little to no reason for being in this story at all(with the exception of Bash and maybe Ashe). But especially Vaan is so useless and plays absolutely no role for the story, it really dissappointed me hard the first time I played through.

Yeah, that's what the line "but it was clearly changed at the last minute to appeal to... I don't ferning know who, 12 year old girls?" was getting at.  It's pretty clear that someone over at SE ordered them to add Vaan because "The game needs a whiny emo 16 year old as the main character!"...  Really, if they didn't want to make Basch the main character for whatever reason, they really should have made Balthier the main character...
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] FF7 remake discussion time!
Post by: -Ric- on 2020-04-20 22:50:49
Vayne gets hate?

Yup.

Really, if they didn't want to make Basch the main character for whatever reason, they really should have made Balthier the main character...

Ashe should've been the main character, not Basch or Balthier. Basch is a glorified bodyguard, filled with regret for having failed both his homeland as well as Dalmasca. Balthier tags around out of sheer curiosity up to the point where he realizes he's on a collision course with his father as well as the empire, then he's all in. As for Vaan and Penelo... Honestly, who the fuck knows lol.

It's Ashe's story. They should have made her the main character instead of designing her with a hooker's outfit and going with useless characters instead.

I have to say I found FF10 to be an amazing game.

Well, there's one thing we agree on after all. Haha.
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] FF7 remake discussion time!
Post by: Dark Phoenix on 2020-04-20 23:14:53
Ashe should've been the main character, not Basch or Balthier. Basch is a glorified bodyguard, filled with regret for having failed both his homeland as well as Dalmasca. Balthier tags around out of sheer curiosity up to the point where he realizes he's on a collision course with his father as well as the empire, then he's all in. As for Vaan and Penelo... Honestly, who the fern knows lol.

It's Ashe's story. They should have made her the main character instead of designing her with a hooker's outfit and going with useless characters instead.

Well, I agree, but my understanding is that the writers wanted Basch to be the main character, and they were overridden by the higher-ups, who felt that Basch was too old to be a protagonist, and they pretty much had to come up with Vaan as the main character at the last minute.  I think they wanted to do something LIKE FF10, where the main character of the game wasn't the main character of the story, and that Basch was meant to be the player avatar... And then they pretty much had Vaan pushed on them at some point.  Which is why his connection to the story is pretty much nonexistent, unlike any of the other characters (well, except Penelo, but she's there because otherwise Vaan has NO connection to anybody in the party whatsoever).
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] FF7 remake discussion time!
Post by: Unwise Owl Tattoo on 2020-04-21 04:59:39
FFXII is a perfect example of death by committee. Kinda mystifying how they took all the talent from Final Fantasy Tactics and produced that mess.
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] FF7 remake discussion time!
Post by: MysticLord on 2020-04-23 21:42:31
FFXII is a perfect example of death by committee. Kinda mystifying how they took all the talent from Final Fantasy Tactics and produced that mess.
They fired the guy from FFT/VS because he had a nervous breakdown and let the Sa-Ga goofball finish it.

IMO Vayne is the hero.
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] FF7 remake discussion time!
Post by: Manakaiser on 2020-04-24 05:40:05
Something interesting happened to me. I cant seem to finish the game X_X.

Ive breezed through the game until chapter 16 with long gamplay sessions of up to 3 hours but since ive started climbing (and now entered) shinra building my drive has significantly died down and im unsure why. Since ive reached ch16 the longest ive played in 1 go was about 30 minutes and ive been sitting in this chapted for almost a week until i reached chapter 17 and since then i havent touched the game and a this point im not even sure im going to pick up the game again and I cant really rationally explain why, it just happened fluidly.

Kind of a shame as I started off really enjoying it but the gameplay outstayed its welcome it seems for me, combat gets boring very fast once you have everything and cant look forward to new stuff adding to it like materia which happens too early in the game imo. The ultimate stuff was always only possible to unlock at the very end in previous titles which was a highly motivating factor as in stuff to look forward to, here im peaked midway chapter 14; Not kotr, no ultimate materias, no ultimate weapons to grind for so you can beat the ultimate bosses you can then grind for so all it has to keep you motivated really is only seeing the story unfold now and thats not motivating at all...

Not sure mayb killing bahamuth which was a joke, didnt even equip any materia i was wearing random ass apleveling weapons and materia purely based on materia slots and what needed ap like atb stagger etcetc, in chapter 14 was the secret killing blow as postgame/superbosses were always a big drive for me in FF for the more recent games; I Know there is hardmode but still, a boss being harder in an extra mode (especially if the difficulty comes from mainly restrictions) doesnt feel the same as a boss just being hard in the first place)

Kinda sad but Ive had enough hours I kinda enjoyed so Im overall fine with the investment but my rating definitely changed to about 6,5/10 from mayb 7,5-8/10 i was at initially =/
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] FF7 remake discussion time!
Post by: -Ori on 2020-04-24 23:00:00
that really is a shame because the shinra building (1st time) is literally my favorite part from the original

everytime i get there i take my sweet ass time, even walk on the treadmill a little bit, so i dont get through it too fast

but part of that fun was knowing you have a long way to go
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] FF7 remake discussion time!
Post by: Manakaiser on 2020-04-25 07:08:41
Well the building itself is not at fault though, its actually incredibly well done visually. But in the original , once you get there you feel "now the game really starts" in the remake that part is kinda missing for obvious reasons.
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] FF7 remake discussion time!
Post by: Loozka on 2020-04-25 19:22:51
Sooo, since i have no ps4 on my own (i would only play a really small amount of games on it anyways) i had to get my friends one for 4 days to finish the remake. I finished yesterday and gotta say... The disappointment is real.

First of all, i'm not a huge fan of linear gameplay. That's the reason that to this day i didn't manage to finish 13 just once. But since i knew it'll be linear i thought i can deal with it, especially since it's regards characters i loved for god knows how many years. Well, turns out i could infact deal with it, but i would lie if i say anything even remotely to "i like it". It's like they removed the "Final" from "Final Fantasy" and replaced it with "Fantasy, to a specific degree"

Then comes the voice acting. May god have mercy on me, but i started with the german dub and held out for like 25 seconds before felt a level of cringe i can hardly describe. Changed it to jap dubs with english subs and it became less cringeworthy, but still felt very childish (Especially Barett, a grown ass man trying his utter best to act like Tidus). I've come to realize how fun it was to actually just read and make up what that character must sound like instead of having voice acting telling you how reality looks. That one did sting alot, not gonna lie. Encountered numerous situations where i was sitting in my chair talking to myself "Man, please don't talk this way, just talk like an actual human pleaseeeee".

The combat. Well... lackluster. I realized pretty early that there really is no point to use "magic" materia whatsoever. The only reason to do so is simply because i felt like looking at some fancy animations, but apart from that, why would i use them? I can just beat the ever living crap out of mostly everything just by smashing my button without having to waste my time with "charging" animations for a spell that does nothing but look decent. On some rare occasion (flying stuff and so on) it did make sense, but in the grand scheme of things those situations didn't appear to often. I expected a tad more than mindlessly smashing that one button for pretty much 90% of the game.


I could still live with that stuff above, because it still was FF7 (to some degree) and i played with the characters i've known and loved for so long. Nostalgia played a big role as to why i even managed to finish it. I'm not even sure right now whether "big role" is an understatement.



But there's one thing that was the biggest no-go whatsoever. The story itself. Help me understand because i apprently can't. You want to "remake" a game that has been loved for decades, sold a fantastic amount of copies and left it's fans with nothing but admiration. And then you... make changes to what makes it so amazing? WHY? Help me out here for real, because once again, i don't get it. There's a reason as to why the "Mona Lisa" is jailed inside a high security museum 24/7. Because it's art that at one point in time was deemed as "almost perfect". And even if you are the DaVinci of our age, if you ever dared to say the words "Let me work on it, i'll make it better" you'd be red flagged right away and people would question your sanity. You know why? Because it's good. Yes, it probably can be even better, but it also can turn into a hot mess of garbage instead and taking the risk is quite franky stupid. So why did SE do that with the "almost perfect" art they provided the world with? Especially implement some - time travel paradox tricky treat whatever you wanna call it shenanigans - garbage that already failed before? Is it to make things "new"? Also makes no sense whatsoever because the people that buy the game because of nostalgia only do so because the liked the original, they would have enjoyed the story once again. To attract new customers? What does it matter, they don't know the original story anyways and most of them look at the remake just as "yet another ARPG". I'm apparently missing something here, so enlighten me.

I'd be highly surprised if this isn't just another game that'll be forgotten after a month, except for the die hard fans of course. Overall a major disappointment FOR ME PERSONALLY. If you managed to like it, good for you i guess. I wish i could like it aswell tbh.

Title: Re: [SPOILERS] FF7 remake discussion time!
Post by: -Ric- on 2020-04-26 00:30:20
The combat. Well... lackluster. I realized pretty early that there really is no point to use "magic" materia whatsoever. The only reason to do so is simply because i felt like looking at some fancy animations,

Magic in this game is insanely powerful. Not to mention it's the key to stagger a LOT of enemies. It's probably the most useful implementation it's had since FFX. Calling it lackluster just because you chose to spam physical attacks the entire game is pretty weird.
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] FF7 remake discussion time!
Post by: .. on 2020-04-29 02:02:15
Isn't it fun to state opinions like they are facts, all while coming across as holier than thou and dismissive of other people's opinions? Yay, internet!
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] FF7 remake discussion time!
Post by: -Ori on 2020-04-29 02:30:07
Isn't it fun to state opinions like they are facts, all while coming across as holier than thou and dismissive of other people's opinions? Yay, internet!

actually the last few pages has been almost 100% on-topic and insightful discussion... until your post that is (and now this one responding to it)

and you gotta expect (but not tolerate) a little bit of flaming in this thread, remaking FF7 is a sensitive issue 'round these parts  :-D
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] FF7 remake discussion time!
Post by: Izban on 2020-04-29 08:11:33
Google says average review score is 4.6 of 5 or 88% on metacritic, all major outlets giving it 8-10 of 10.

Maximillian Dood did a spoiler talk with easy allies which contextualises a fair bit that upon further play time paying attention makes a whole buttonne of sense.

7r is most definitely its own genre or at least in an incredibly under exposed genre, most action RPGs are cooldown action based, think WoW waiting for skills to be available  with rotations being optimal, or they are total free action ala kingdom hearts or ff15, both promote being in the right place at the right time for very different reasons. 7r's combat is action until meaningful actions are available which is a terrible way to explain it, ATB charges faster with action whether it be attack or defense, ATB is a commodity, meaningful actions require ATB, healing, items, actual damage and strategic abilities all are meaningful actions, so you have to be active to do anything meaningful, this means moving,attacking and defending to allow you to do anything of actual value, which leans more towards fighting games then to TPA, only game I've played with a similar system of combat is rogue galaxy but even it was still a cooldown base  with a combo flair, point is playthrough on classic or easy sure you and hit square to win even on normal you can get away with it in some cases but your totally ignoring how the game is meant to be played, to make this abundantly clear I'll list the overarching mechanics.
-stagger system
-strength/weakness system
-atb charge system
-character specific abilities
-materia system
-weapon upgrade system
-weapons/armour/accessories system
-physical position systems(don't stand in line of fire for scrub deaths)
-summon system
Seriously the only time combat falls over is aerial combat which thankfully is fairly rare however it is a place where an improvement can be made, additional characters will also add further depth to combat cause every character playes different, and that gets even more complex if they add a Mid battle phs system now we actually have more then 3 characters permanent, basically saying the combat is shallow is downright false no matter how you slice it, it is most certainly not a normal action RPG

Adding in Hardmode is pretty great so far, only a couple of bosses in but crikey there is a significant step up in character management involved in being successful without items.

As for the Nomuraisms scattered throughout with emphasis on the last chapter are like 5% of the game experience and while playing through a second time that last chapter isn't anywhere near as much of a lore dumpster fire, mainly cause you actually notice the hints that we aren't playing 7o, all while allowing for non-main continuity DLC for all future games, which I'm all for more 7r gameplay.

Now I'm not saying the game is perfect by any stretch but the majority of the game is amazing, not liking the art style or this characters voice are entirely subjective, so I'll be as objective as I can be, story is close enough overall that you should like it if you liked the original excluding the last chapter, character development you definitely understand the characters better by the end of 7r then you do at the end of the midgar section of 7o side characters included making platefall and other similar events far more meaningful, combat is more engaging with more potential to expand, visually it looks far better, musically it's mind-blowing, voice sync and acting overall is passable at worst at best it makes you emote, and most importantly it has actual replayability, so objectively it's a better game

Title: Re: [SPOILERS] FF7 remake discussion time!
Post by: gjoerulv on 2020-04-29 11:04:45
Personally, I've stopped taken professional critics seriously for, I dunno, 10 years or so. Probably longer. IGN's review of FF7r was laughable as hell. According to critique consensus SW ep 8 is a great movie. lmao... I'm kinda surprised how badly ep 9 was treated by critics though. Imo it's worse than 8, but not that much. They are both terrible movies. Maybe FF7R-2 will have a similar fate?

FF7r is its own genre as in a new genre? Welp, I guess it depends on what one mean by genre.

FF8 has a pretty unique junction system. FF4 introduced the atb system (afaik). These games are not new or unique genres though. Mechanics =/= genre. If that's the case, there are literally 10s of thousands of genres. Perhaps even millions.

It's interesting to discuss what constitutes genres, but, imo, in the case of music, there are way too many "recognized" genres and sub-genres (especially in metal). Don't let that happen to games please. It's ridiculous. FF7r is an action RPG. Does it contain unique mechanics? Probably, I dunno, haven't done any research. Calling it an atb system seems a bit odd to me though. It's a cooldown system one has the means to directly manipulate with your characters input. It doesn't resemble the atb system from FF4-9 at all. Without stretching your logic. It's called atb in FF7R, and not cooldwn because, well, it's an FF.

Even if it is an entirely new unique genre, the fact remains that SE has pushed FFs in an action direction due to the market. That's where the AAA gold is, in action games. And why wouldn't they go in that direction if it's potentially more profitable?
I don't think SE will do the same thing with the DQ series though, mainly because that series is kinda sacred over in Japan. You don't #¤%& with something sacred lol.

And to comment the stagger system. It's similar to the Octopath traveler weakness system, as in, with each new enemy you're looking to stagger/break them. It's interesting at first but gets exponentially more stale over time imo. The same was true for FF13. Although it may not be true in all encounters, what you initially look for is staggering/breaking. For each fight. Yawn... And the enemies can't stagger/break you. Why? Frankly, I think these games would be better without. Looking for ways to exploit the enemies without having this constant "I have to stagger" mentality is more fun imo. All enemies, in some sense, have the same weakness.
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] FF7 remake discussion time!
Post by: JFax88 on 2020-04-29 12:27:03
it was a fun game, but many story decisions made were so stupid and inferior to the original. Especially stuff with Sephiroth and ghosts. Sephiroth feel so small-minded and petty compared to original where he feel mythic because they overuse him. It also crowd the plot, Shinra should be villain in Midgar but they keep having Sephiroth always show up which weaken story theme of class conflict vs Shinra. Also It diminishes his power and mystery just so they can have cheesy anime fight. Very sad end, I do not know why they made this decisions! I know they explain it but explanation is so dumb (time travel? why?).

I thought characters were better than expected. I was worried but Aerith act like herself, first time since original FFVII. Cloud too. Jessie too anime also but I like more character for Avalanche characters. It is sad to me that they messed up story so bad because they did a good job on characters. This could have been great, if not for so many awful story choice.
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] FF7 remake discussion time!
Post by: Izban on 2020-04-29 23:05:27
By your definition would Super Mario World and Mario 64 be the same genre, what about uncharted and gears of war... Gameplay mechanics are wildly different between the 4 games mentioned and they are all considered different genres, and by definition they are all games in which you play a particular role to see the story... So they are all RPGs, so the real question is how broad or shallow are your genre definitions? Me I'm definitely on the bandwagon of being as specific as possible when defining things cause let's face it people take things the wrong way whenever possible so why not reduce the chances  by being specific.

The writer's are the same minus Sakaguchi, the story is just as ridiculous and convoluted, and is still carried by the characters, the dialogue in the cut scenes are close enough to word for word to the originals localisation, all the plot points are hit for the midgar section, then the things that have been added character development wise follow the originals character arcs only making it a smoother change through the stages, the only issues people are having are the plot ghosts because they are fairly ham fisted due to their sporadic nature until they just get dumped on you, cause hey pretty well everyone missed their intentions on the first playthrough, which happens cause there is just so much they have done that is downright amazing to draw your attention away from them in particular.

Freshies are loving the remake while the diehards either love it or hate it based almost entirely on the last 1-3hrs of game time as in that 1-3hrs are the only thing the majority of diehards hate but they hate it with such a passion it ruins an otherwise amazing game, oh these are the diehards that have actually played the game rather then watching someone else play it or just the cutscenes.

The stagger mechanic doesn't really play a part in most of the combat, it's more for the bosses and gimmick fights, mainly cause trash mobs don't need you to be any good at the game to kill.
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] FF7 remake discussion time!
Post by: sackyachouchie on 2020-04-30 04:40:52
The stagger mechanic doesn't really play a part in most of the combat, it's more for the bosses and gimmick fights, mainly cause trash mobs don't need you to be any good at the game to kill.

I completely disagree with the above statement. IMO, the stagger mechanic was completely ruined, pointless, and frustrating during boss fights. Each boss fight had 3-4 mandatory cutscenes that reset the stagger meter and hardcap the damage you could do to them. Meaning if you got that stagger to 98% when the boss has 75% health, you will have to watch a cutscene and start over with stagger at 0%. If you manage to get the stagger and try to use some limit breaks or summons while the boss is staggered the cutscene will prevent it doing any real damage and keep the boss at the nearest threshold (usually 75%, 50%, and 25%). It makes it feel like there is no point engaging with the stagger mechanic or the limit breaks because they are rarely if ever useful.

Stagger was a good idea for the combat that was severely botched in execution when it matters most, the boss fights.
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] FF7 remake discussion time!
Post by: Izban on 2020-04-30 08:01:16
No one said it's implementation was perfect...but it's one of the better implementations of such systems, that the majority of issues people have with it are easily patchable, but it sounds to me someone needs to git gud
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] FF7 remake discussion time!
Post by: Mendelevium on 2020-04-30 08:17:45
I get you're probably joking, with the git gud part.

But the parts are easily patchable are still valid to criticize until they are patched :).
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] FF7 remake discussion time!
Post by: The Black-caped Man on 2020-04-30 09:30:19
Personally, I've stopped taken professional critics seriously for, I dunno, 10 years or so. Probably longer. IGN's review of FF7r was laughable as hell. According to critique consensus SW ep 8 is a great movie. lmao... I'm kinda surprised how badly ep 9 was treated by critics though. Imo it's worse than 8, but not that much. They are both terrible movies. Maybe FF7R-2 will have a similar fate?


I felt just the same....There is so many flaws in both movies not only from a standpoint that they do not add up with the original movies but just are extremely poor, obvious, crappy movie making in general. There's around 10k youtube clips about that already. So it's kinda like after TLJ they realized that faking the rotten tomatoes/metacritics scores up to 90% is too obvious so they tuned it down a bit to make it seem more realistic(yet still WAY too much for such crap).
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] FF7 remake discussion time!
Post by: gjoerulv on 2020-04-30 12:13:07
By your definition would Super Mario World and Mario 64 be the same genre, what about uncharted and gears of war... Gameplay mechanics are wildly different between the 4 games mentioned and they are all considered different genres, and by definition they are all games in which you play a particular role to see the story... So they are all RPGs, so the real question is how broad or shallow are your genre definitions? Me I'm definitely on the bandwagon of being as specific as possible when defining things cause let's face it people take things the wrong way whenever possible so why not reduce the chances  by being specific.

The writer's are the same minus Sakaguchi, the story is just as ridiculous and convoluted, and is still carried by the characters, the dialogue in the cut scenes are close enough to word for word to the originals localisation, all the plot points are hit for the midgar section, then the things that have been added character development wise follow the originals character arcs only making it a smoother change through the stages, the only issues people are having are the plot ghosts because they are fairly ham fisted due to their sporadic nature until they just get dumped on you, cause hey pretty well everyone missed their intentions on the first playthrough, which happens cause there is just so much they have done that is downright amazing to draw your attention away from them in particular.

Freshies are loving the remake while the diehards either love it or hate it based almost entirely on the last 1-3hrs of game time as in that 1-3hrs are the only thing the majority of diehards hate but they hate it with such a passion it ruins an otherwise amazing game, oh these are the diehards that have actually played the game rather then watching someone else play it or just the cutscenes.

The stagger mechanic doesn't really play a part in most of the combat, it's more for the bosses and gimmick fights, mainly cause trash mobs don't need you to be any good at the game to kill.


Hmmm, did I have a definition of what a genre is? I'm not sure what logic you refer to? Mario 64 is a 3D-platformer; Super Mario bros. is a 2D-platformer.
Mario 64 is an Adventure 3D-platformer? Mario 64 is an Adventure-Collector 3D-platformer? Mario 64 is a Family-friendly Adventure-Collector 3D-platformer with Boss fights and overall Silliness? I guess Mario 64 is FFAC 3DP BS. Mario 64 is not an RPG, not by a longshot.
Again, it may be interesting to discuss what constitutes genres, where the line goes etc. Being specific is fine, just don't bloat the dictionary with useless words (see metal genres). There are such things as sub-genres, descriptions and tags too. Game of Thrones contains humor, but saying GoT's genre includes comedy is stretching the specifics by a ridiculous amount imo.

The story is convoluted in the original FF7, yes, and at times silly and ridiculous, but the art direction/style didn't make that such a big deal in the original (the silliness part). Now they add multi dimensions and/or time traveling mechanics on top of the existing convoluted story. The complexity increases exponentially by each BS factor such as these they add. And, be sure, this is not the end of it.

I've seen plenty of newcomers who does not like it, or at least not call it a masterpiece. This a quantity over quality argument of what I assume is about the quality of the game?
Imo, the game is slightly above mediocre at best. Perhaps a 7 if I'm in a good mood (I would have to be drunk as well lol). The gameplay is not my cup of tea, so I'm not the best person to judge. Calling it a fast cash-grab is going too far, but it's within the same ballpark; at least the same sport.
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] FF7 remake discussion time!
Post by: Kefka on 2020-04-30 19:40:31
Also the story of the original was clever and had a lot of adult themes.  Most of all you cared about the characters and could suspend disbelief.  There's none of that with the Demake - it's an out of control, totally unbelievable hack n slash.  The original wasn't perfect, but it got an awful lot right.  Also, I'd point out that the English translation of the original was the main reason FF7 is seen as more convoluted than it was.  You can't use the flawed original translation as a hammer to beat the original with.

Indeed, certain mistranslations completely changed parts of the background story around, or at least made it sound rather obscure. My absolute favorite mistranslation is still what Vincent says when you first open his coffin:

Vincent: "So Sephiroth knows he was created five years ago?"

When it should be more like: "So Sephiroth learned about his creation five years ago?"

What's interesting is that this very same mistranslation is also in the german version, so it looks to me like the german translators didn't translate the original japanese script, but rather the already flawed english script, thus carrying over all the mistakes from there, plus adding new ones.
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] FF7 remake discussion time!
Post by: Mabinog on 2020-04-30 22:28:13
Dunkey reviewed the game (link in spoiler tags)

https://youtu.be/8Qlf3b9wa4s

If you know Dunkey you'll see his final verdict coming. And it caused quite a stir among some gamers.
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] FF7 remake discussion time!
Post by: Izban on 2020-04-30 22:52:13
Original Japanese is still a convoluted mess,carried by the character interactions and Nomuraisms,the flawed original translation is also the official translation. Very few people globally would have played the actual Japanese translation that don't cruise on these forums cause hey they never officially re-translated it.

All the primary plot points that people seem to love about ff7 are directly from Nomura... Aeriths death, the Cloud/Zack/Sephiroth connection, the bad guy switch and I'm pretty sure the character backgrounds, it's been a while since I read the ff7 ultimania.
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] FF7 remake discussion time!
Post by: -Ric- on 2020-04-30 23:27:35
Nomura had nothing to do with it

Wrong. He had a minimal role when it came to the story but he did have his hand in some parts. Not the text  or dialogue, but actual story events.
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] FF7 remake discussion time!
Post by: Izban on 2020-05-01 00:39:15
Eco-terroists blowing stuff up arguing with a corporation run "country" meets an indigenous lifeform who has special powers, evil corporation is evil does human experimentation leading to creation of big bad part alien part planet blood all evil, who later goes crazy and murders a mess of people, main character isnt who he thinks he is but was there for the events he remembers but also remembers someone else's memories did I mention the love triangle.... No not convoluted at all.... Arguing that ff7 is a coherent story even in its native Japanese is a rather arduous task as the story has more twists and turns then a bag of twisties or a cup noodles, whether it's official translation is poor or not the Underlying story is a convoluted mess which has so many threads many of which are never fully explored, the character arcs are the only things reasonably well executed to the point where they could be considered coherent alone

Did I mention the primary bad guy changes legit 4-5 times
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] FF7 remake discussion time!
Post by: -Ric- on 2020-05-01 03:28:51
Billionaire evil son of billionaire dead father, therefor owner of all of said father's company and assets trying to "borrow" the most ghetto-looking propeller airplane in the entire world, while being in possession of helicopters, boats, submarines, and even airships.

10/10. Perfect writing.
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] FF7 remake discussion time!
Post by: Izban on 2020-05-01 04:01:04
Like seriously don't get me wrong ff7 is a masterpiece.

But without a doubt it is a incoherent mess of a story that's is held together but amazing characters, who's motivations are fairly well fleshed out so their interactions are easily believed. It's story is a mess the dialogue scripting gave us "this guy are sick" but even with the numerous mistranslations and the caricaturisation of characters they are still well and truely beloved by many.

There was so many unfinished plot threads they were able to make not just 1 sequel but an entire compilation including 2 prequels with 3 prequels, 2 sequels and assorted novelizations as well as a requel using existing lore and plot points without the need for additional thought into new characters to make passable content
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] FF7 remake discussion time!
Post by: -Ric- on 2020-05-01 04:17:38
Like seriously don't get me wrong ff7 is a masterpiece.

I wouldn't call it a masterpiece. It's a great game. VI is a masterpiece in my opinion.
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] FF7 remake discussion time!
Post by: Izban on 2020-05-01 04:24:17
Personal order 6,7,9,5/4,8,12,15,13------10.... 10 was so bad i legit don't understand why so many people have such an attachment to it that being said I don't manage to get past getting dog bro as a companion absolutely nothing about it grabbed me.

But I legit can't wait till I get to play remakes take on red or as he shall forever been know as labratdog
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] FF7 remake discussion time!
Post by: sackyachouchie on 2020-05-01 05:22:54
No one said that the original FF7's writing was perfect, but it was certainly a better implementation of the plot points than the remake. If someone thinks the original was convoluted, it sounds like someone needs to git gud at reading comprehension.
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] FF7 remake discussion time!
Post by: Izban on 2020-05-01 05:39:11
Reading comprehension isn't exactly a difficult thing to do.

Ima guessing you think convoluted = bad.... It doesn't but it does require characters to be compelling to not be a train wreck, which 7o had, it also has so many of imperfections overlooked because of fantastic characters and nostalgia.

5% of a games story being different to it's original makes it a terrible game overall, the story and dialogue is practically identical aside from a couple of translation tweaks and expansions on particular side characters.

There is no objective standard that it is possible to say original is a better game but you can say remake has plenty that is objectively better everything else is subjective
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] FF7 remake discussion time!
Post by: sackyachouchie on 2020-05-01 06:23:55
Ima guessing you think convoluted = bad....
Nope. I think convoluted = difficult to follow, hence why reading comprehension is the key skill to overcome the "extreme complexity" of FF7 original's story.

It wasn't just 5% of the story from the remake that was significantly worse and less interesting, it was more like 25% (every time Sephiroth is shoved in your face devalues him as a character, every scene with plot ghosts is completely brain dead, all the side-quest sequences between main plot points, introduction of Zack at the end of the game with no context, the main story from Shinra tower onward to the end of the game, and probably more I could think of if I spent more time trying to remember).

There are many objective standards you could use to evaluate the story from the remake and the original, and I would bet nearly all of them would find the remake wanting. Stating "everything is subjective" is relativism and quickly steers discussions in pointless directions.

Also, lol at "objectivity is impossible except remake is objectively better in some things and everything else is automatically subjective because I deem it so"
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] FF7 remake discussion time!
Post by: Manakaiser on 2020-05-01 10:12:44
I wouldn't call it a masterpiece. It's a great game. VI is a masterpiece in my opinion.

I agree with that exact statement.
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] FF7 remake discussion time!
Post by: Izban on 2020-05-01 10:18:15
Visually, musically, vocally, variety of play,depth of play are all objectively better in remake no matter how you slice it. While story is close enough it really shouldn't be a part of the this is better or that is better, game time is about the same

Narratively it's easier to understand the motivation of almost all characters involved, we also received a better understanding of what type of people the characters are, the story maintains its complexity, there is a clearer understanding of the the different factions involved, major plot points are given more context and gravity, emotions from the character are easier to read and understand, themes covered are more fully explored... So objectively unless it's a horror narrative it's objectively shared better then the original the only real issue is the plot ghosts, a good narrative should give you enough pieces that you should be able to reliably determine how a character should act in a given situation and cover a broad range of emotions.

Art is a subjective medium with objective criteria so yeah you can be objective while discussing art, things that bring an emotional response are subjective in nature so as soon as people start using Nomura as a reason to not like or artistic changes as an issue it become subjective, if you can keep to the actual content and quality thereof then yes you can stay objective.

So if you ignore the specifics of the story changes and focus on the contents and story building then yeah story of remake is as good as original, if not better as it is in world more believable.
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] FF7 remake discussion time!
Post by: sackyachouchie on 2020-05-02 01:21:50
Visually -> only the resolution of the artwork is objectively better from FF7OG to FF7RE (unless you count environmental textures, which might actually be a lower texture than the original. FF7OG doors looked more detailed than Cloud's apartment door in FF7RE).

Musically -> FF7RE is not bad but the main theme is hot garbage (shiiiiiiiiiiinnnnnnneeeeeeee bbbbbbrrrrrrriiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiggghhttttt), as well as the butchering of Wallmarket's atmosphere. Anything good in FF7RE musically is derived from FF7OG (which is true for more than just the music in this game). Some of it good, some of it bad, but not better on the whole.

Vocally -> When it comes to Aerith and Zack, I would rather have NO VOICED LINES than the abysmal performances in FF7 remake. They were worse in FF7 remake than in Advent Children, how do you even mess up that bad?

Variety of Play -> Complete BS category here. The entirety of FF7OG has way more enemies, way more characters, way more materia, way more items, etc. FF7OG>>>>>>>FF7 remake when it comes to variety of anything.

Depth of play -> Can't comment here because I don't obsess over how deep I can jump into game mechanics, its not my thing. That being said, I bet hardcore FF7OG players would find the depth of FF7RE's gameplay pretty shallow.

These are objectively better no matter how you slice it, or just better because it copies modern game design?

Motivation for nearly all characters are given NO CONTEXT AT ALL in FF7 remake. If you don't have knowledge of FF7OG's story, there is no context for who Sephiroth is or why he pops up every 2 minutes whispering in Cloud's ear. There is no context for the plot ghosts or the KH/Advent Children story infusion without trying to rationalize it with extended FF7 universe media. There is no context to why Tifa is apprehensive or continually asking Cloud about his past. There is no motivation given whatsoever to Red XIII, since you only see him at the end of the game. No context for who the hell Zack is supposed to be, and actually ruins the setup for the best plot reveal in FF7OG. FF7RE gives context to nothing and ruins a lot of the setup the original game had. More cinematic presentation does not equal better writing.

FF7OG actually has setup and payoff for its plot reveals and character growth. FF7RE has absolutely none outside of the character growth for Barret.
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] FF7 remake discussion time!
Post by: sackyachouchie on 2020-05-02 01:55:52
It's like someone saying Peter Jackson's The Hobbit trilogy of movies had better writing than the original book by JRR Tolkien because it had better voice acting, better visuals, etc. When in reality, anything good in those movies are derived from the original book, and anything outside of what was explicitly written in the original is garbage.

FF7 remake is to FF7OG what Peter Jackson's The Hobbit An Unexpected Journey film is to JRR Tolkien's The Hobbit in terms of writing: derivative when good, bloated when mediocre, and extremely disappointing overall.
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] FF7 remake discussion time!
Post by: Izban on 2020-05-02 08:43:25
Abusive Cid would like a chat with you....as would more then mildly racist depiction of a black man....see I can cherry pick arguments to its fairly easy to poke wholes in arguments when you ignore the majority of what is actually said

Visually there is more pixels in remake clouds eyes then most of the backgrounds in og7, and the backgrounds your talking about having limited textures haven't fully loaded on today's hardware.

Cherry picking aerith and Zack for your issues with the voice acting is a poor argument cause 2 lines is all Zack has and aerith has plot reasons for some of the more suspect lines.

The music from the original is a fairly limited format that removes most of the underlying feel of the trackes where remake has a damn near lossless format with a legitimate orchestra involved, you are also the only person so far that I've seen mention any issues with remakes soundtrack

As for your 'tear down' of the narrative argument I wasn't comparing full game to remake I was comparing remake to midgar only, comparing the hobbit, with lord of the rings to just the hobbit is never gonna be fair.

Remake has more to do in midgar the og7 but that's not hard .

When you talk about interactive media then depth of content it's kind of important cause it adds to replayability because there is a higher goal then just finishing a title.

You kinda lost me when you started touting JRR tolkien dude had an amazing story to tell but God it was painful to read... Kinda like Shakespeare... This coming from someone who has no issues reading  literal translated novels and normalised translated novels
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] FF7 remake discussion time!
Post by: The Black-caped Man on 2020-05-02 09:42:24
The music from the original is a fairly limited format that removes most of the underlying feel of the trackes where remake has a damn near lossless format with a legitimate orchestra involved, you are also the only person so far that I've seen mention any issues with remakes soundtrack

You found another^^ that basically understands and supports everything that was said in this post u are refering to:)

It seems to me like to you, having better technology graphics and sound quality wise equals better graphics and music. That opinion completely ignores the feeling an environment, a sound track gives you in a specific scenario. If they give barrets weapons call of duty sounds will you also find that great cause its so flawless and real?
Same with the voice over. 7 had no voices so you cant state that its "better" in the remake. DLPB captured it quite well in his post as I did a few pages ago that in the OG you had your own interpretation of character voices, detailed looks and acting which is now stolen from you and replaced with Nomuras dbz matrix action ff7 vision
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] FF7 remake discussion time!
Post by: Manakaiser on 2020-05-02 16:03:13
In terms of voice acting, as mentioned before, I kinda agree.

The thing with Voice acting is, it generally is a great thing in new games, adding often to immersion (If the acting is good which in this case it isnt, but thats not the point i wanna make).

The problem with adding voice acting to a remake is the same problem that books that get made into a succesful movie have, who then have the audacity to add the actors from the movie onto the cover of the new releases (which is something i absolutely HATE). It takes away alot as it robs you of your interpretation and in that way part of the experience of the characters you previously had (or voices in this case).
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] FF7 remake discussion time!
Post by: gjoerulv on 2020-05-03 00:29:04
Visually, musically, vocally, variety of play,depth of play are all objectively better in remake no matter how you slice it. While story is close enough it really shouldn't be a part of the this is better or that is better, game time is about the same

Narratively it's easier to understand the motivation of almost all characters involved, we also received a better understanding of what type of people the characters are, the story maintains its complexity, there is a clearer understanding of the the different factions involved, major plot points are given more context and gravity, emotions from the character are easier to read and understand, themes covered are more fully explored... So objectively unless it's a horror narrative it's objectively shared better then the original the only real issue is the plot ghosts, a good narrative should give you enough pieces that you should be able to reliably determine how a character should act in a given situation and cover a broad range of emotions.

Art is a subjective medium with objective criteria so yeah you can be objective while discussing art, things that bring an emotional response are subjective in nature so as soon as people start using Nomura as a reason to not like or artistic changes as an issue it become subjective, if you can keep to the actual content and quality thereof then yes you can stay objective.

So if you ignore the specifics of the story changes and focus on the contents and story building then yeah story of remake is as good as original, if not better as it is in world more believable.

Visuals and music have a more advanced technology behind, them, sure. Imo, the art-style in the original suits the story much better.
Because of voice acting the music design is approached differently. If they are objectively better compositions is another other question.

Don't care about the battle system, but there are a lot more strategic potential in the original, though they didn't get fully realized in the final product. As in, you don't really need all of it. But it is there. So... I dunno, speaking quantity, the original has more.

Fleshing things out does not necessarily make things better. The new narrative actually adds a whole plethora of new plot-holes (not that the original didn't have any), and stupid anime-logic (for lack of better word). Biggs, Wedge and Jessie comes off as bad, cringe-worthy characters. Sure there are some good moments, but overall cringy as hell. The orignal characters comes off as caricatures of themselves. Imo, I think that was inevitable in this art style.
The original had a better narrative structure when it comes to gameplay vs story. In FF7R the structure adds to the convolution.

Saying FF7 was a convoluted mess is not very honest. It's not THAT hard to follow.

I lold at this:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UO-Ce148Pyo
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] FF7 remake discussion time!
Post by: Mabinog on 2020-05-03 02:12:36
You think FF7R has bad voice acting? Check out the Trials of Mana remake.

https://twitter.com/About20Donuts/status/1254170156583940096

It's still a great remake, but man is it low-budget.
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] FF7 remake discussion time!
Post by: Manakaiser on 2020-05-03 04:17:03
You think FF7R has bad voice acting? Check out the Trials of Mana remake.

https://twitter.com/About20Donuts/status/1254170156583940096

It's still a great remake, but man is it low-budget.

euhm sure, thats terrible I guess, but how is this relevant?

its like saying "you think Hunger games are bad movies? Look at Battlefield Earth: A Saga of the Year 3000"

Title: Re: [SPOILERS] FF7 remake discussion time!
Post by: Mabinog on 2020-05-03 12:02:58
It's not really relevant. Just wanted to share that lol.
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] FF7 remake discussion time!
Post by: Kefka on 2020-05-03 22:01:55
Alright, after watching the entire 15 h cutscene marathon on youtube from start to finish, here's my 2 cents on their new take on the story: most of the normal dialogues with NPCs and such were actually fine, and I liked most of the additional talk between the party members and Avalanche, it was kinda fun spending a bit more time with them. I didn't have a problem with the voice acting either, but maybe that's because english isn't my native language. Either way it was fine by me. The added/changed content is where most of their narrative problems lie. Some of it was good, some of it was meaningless, and others make you just shake your head in disbelief.

Now, I'm absolutely fine with adding more background to side characters as long as it is still in line with the original story and doesn't contradict it in any way. In Jesse's case, they got this right. In other cases, unfortunately, not so much. The game starts out faithfully enough, but here and there they start to roll off the track, and these moments become more frequent the further you progress in the game. And I'm not even talking about Nomura's fate-ghosts or the time-traveling Sephiroth, for even if you were to delete them from the game, there'd still remain a whole bunch of other logic errors and plotholes, some of them with a severe negative impact on the overall story. And those are simply difficult to overlook for me. I could write a long list of all the illogical, contradicting, and sometimes downright hilarious story changes that ruin the atmosphere, but that might take a while. And it's often some major plot points where they fail, sadly.
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] FF7 remake discussion time!
Post by: Devina on 2020-05-06 10:03:58
Alright, just finished it last night.

As a preface, I've played the original FF7 and only completed it quite recently.
I enjoyed this remake a lot, in spite of its flaws. Overall, I'd give it a 9 out of 10.
To me, Midgar is the heart of the original FF7, and my hot take is that the original gets boring after leaving Midgar and turns into more of a generic fantasy, so the idea of Midgar having its own game, I highly support. I also thought the original had some boring and nonsensical parts and bad pacing issues from time to time.

THE GOOD

I like the battle system a lot, played on standard, even if I feel like I didn't full grasp it.
I somehow beat Rufus with a Limit Break, which seemed like a very tough fight. Sephiroth seemed pretty easy. I didn't have that much of a hard time with Hell House like others have, only died once. If anything, Air Buster screwed me over multiple times. I don't know if it was just me, but Fire/Blizzard/Aero seemed useless in comparison to Thunder? Thunder just wrecked all the robots.

I loved the graphics and music. The environments in the game are breathtaking, altho I wish there were less linear corridors. They did an excellent job with Wall Market.

I liked a lot of the expansion, like seeing Cloud's and Tifa's apartments in the slums, getting to
be with Avalanche more, learning more about Aerith's history, etc.

I liked the new take on the Shinra Building and seeing it like a museum. The "Ancients hologram" really floored me.

I liked how Tifa and Barret just seemed a lot more human in this game, and I liked the moment where Tifa breaks down in Aerith's garden. I'm glad I didn't get Aerith's/Barret's scene.

I thought the voice acting was also good, but I also think FF10 has good voice acting so take my opinion with salt. I was fine with everyone's voices, and I think Tifa's a perfect case. Something which bothered me was Zack's, it just felt off in a bad way. Not sure why they couldn't get a better soundalike.

I don't mind the timeline shenanigans, I think it breathes a lot of new life in this story. I can see why it would annoy purists, but to me, it sort of feels like I'm experiencing something with more weight, as a sequel. It sort of makes me feel more connected to the characters and story more in a way.

I got pretty emotional during Aerith's and Marlene's hug since I can relate to the subject of childhood trauma and losing your "home". It's really amazing how giving characters voices and going more into their histories just helps you bond with them more.

THE BAD
Aerial combat feels sluggish and awful.

I honestly have no idea why Roche and Leslie were in this story, they seemed a bit superfluous. I also don't see why Biggs survived, especially after his fakeout death. Imo, Biggs and Jessie should've died at the tower, and Wedge should've been revealed to be alive much later, like near the end of it. It would give us more time to let their deaths sink in a bit, but they reveal Wedge is alive not long after the plate fall.

Some things I found not-so-great were the padding (some areas went on for way too long like the sewers and Hojo's lab) and the robot arm segments.

Spoiler-wise, I really hope Zack isn't alive, it would ruin the remake a lot. I hope it turns out he died some other way in the alternative timeline (just because he survived the army showdown, it doesn't mean the whispers didn't Final Destination him later). The ending *is* confusing, and I think that's a bad thing here. I guess they want to keep fans talking for years, but I would've preferred something more concrete.

The game also suffered from some annoying gamey stuff, like repeating NPC dialog which takes me out of the experience. You can also knock chairs across the Shinra cafeteria and no one reacts. It comes off as silly.

I also got two glitches in my playthrough, one was a small one where Tifa walked through a table, the other one seemed to make Jenova Dreamweaver not spawn tentacles, forcing me to reload.

THE FUTURE

I'm very sad we won't get another installment for another few years. I hope the team seriously takes advice. I hope we don't get more than 3 parts.

I'm also a bit sad that this remake fell short of certain people's expectations. It's clear that a lot of love and effort was put into it.
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] FF7 remake discussion time!
Post by: Dark Phoenix on 2020-05-06 18:21:31
Quote
I also don't see why Biggs survived, especially after his fakeout death. Imo, Biggs and Jessie should've died at the tower, and Wedge should've been revealed to be alive much later, like near the end of it. It would give us more time to let their deaths sink in a bit, but they reveal Wedge is alive not long after the plate fall.

IMO, having them survive is not a great thing, period.  Although you only get to know them a bit, the deaths of the Avalanche members... That's the point where you realize that Shinra is DEAD SERIOUS about stopping Avalanche, and they don't care how many people die to do it.  It also has a profound effect on Barret that's probably going to be lost.  Anybody ask why Barret's going to turn leadership over to Cloud in the remake, when in the original he did it because the deaths of his team members made him realize that he wasn't cut out to be a leader?
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] FF7 remake discussion time!
Post by: -Ric- on 2020-05-06 19:53:17
Barret's character is already 1000 times better in the remake than in the original. I'm not worried one bit.
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] FF7 remake discussion time!
Post by: gjoerulv on 2020-05-07 07:54:22
Hmmm, I guess the arbiters of fate failed to make him a 1000 worse than what he is in the remake.
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] FF7 remake discussion time!
Post by: -Ric- on 2020-05-07 14:51:19
They did fail. Not as terribly as your attempt at a joke but hey, at least you tried.

Barret's character in the original is a complete moron, that throws random tantrums, has 0 leadership qualities and has no idea what's going on 90% of the time. He's basically retarded.

Barret's character in the remake is actually intelligent, shown to have real leadership skills. While he still has temperament issues, he's way more calculated about it. The way his relationship develops with Cloud throughout the game is way deeper and more enjoyable than in the original. You get to see distrust and bad taste jokes slowly turning into respect, co-operation and even friendship. All scenes with Marlene are also way deeper than they were in the original. You get to see Avalanche's leader, the hardheaded and the soft, caring father. And all sides are displayed beautifully.

So yeah, make all the dumb jokes you want, Barret is a far better character in the remake than he ever was in the original.
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] FF7 remake discussion time!
Post by: -Ric- on 2020-05-07 15:37:35
And that's fine. However, the character is different in the remake. And in this case,  different=better. You'll probably disagree though, which is fine. We already know the remake is the worst thing to ever happen in your opinion. But I personally find the character way more relatable to in the remake and way more interesting. It's a joy to have Barret in the group. It's the character that was done the best in my opinion.
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] FF7 remake discussion time!
Post by: sackyachouchie on 2020-05-07 15:53:57
I actually surprised at how close Barret from remake matched Barret from the Beacause retranslation (both of which were better than the original localization IMO). I was impressed at just how much of a difference a proper translation/localization effort can make, and how Nojima kept the spirit of that character in the remake. They definitely did Barret justice in the remake, and I really liked his voice acting, and thought the voice actor provided a relatively nuanced performance despite the character being so bombastic.

However, I can't help but feel remake's Barret either won't go through or won't have the justification to go through the character development Barret experiences in the original from his failures as a leader. All the impact is removed from the story in general, and I think a lot of that blame can be laid at Toriyama and Nomura's feet.

I think Nojima deserves credit for the characters being written in a much better and more faithful way than at any other point in the FF7 compilation (which were garbage in terms of capturing the characters, IMO).
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] FF7 remake discussion time!
Post by: gjoerulv on 2020-05-07 19:04:17
Calling Barret a complete moron isn't honest though. Same as calling FF7 a convoluted mess.

If he is "better" is one thing, but he certainly isn't the same character. At least not the same Barret as he was at the start of FF7. In the original, he is pretty much consumed with his revenge towards shinra. Pretty much everything he acts out is hate aimed towards shinra, in some form, be it direct or underlying. He justifies his action by calling it "saving the planet", though it really is to satisfy his shinra hate boner. Only when he interacts with Marlene is the hate truly gone.
In the "remake" they make him less consumed; a "good guy" and when he does have tantrums, they are often exaggerated.
FF7O Barret wouldn't make silly jokes in the first mission. FF7O Barret wouldn't go back to sector 7 to check on things after the plate fell. After he knew Marlene was safe, and after making excuses to Elmyra, the mission was back on.

I'm not saying he is a totally different character, but by "fleshing him out" they remove some, and they add some. Some for the better. Most of it because he needs to be "likeable", which, imo, is rather transparent. Again, marketing.

And my joke was funny  ;D ;D
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] FF7 remake discussion time!
Post by: sackyachouchie on 2020-05-07 21:07:19
Calling Barret a complete moron isn't honest though. Same as calling FF7 a convoluted mess.

I agree 100% with this. I think the retranslation makes this even more apparent.

If he is "better" is one thing, but he certainly isn't the same character. At least not the same Barret as he was at the start of FF7. In the original, he is pretty much consumed with his revenge towards shinra. Pretty much everything he acts out is hate aimed towards shinra, in some form, be it direct or underlying. He justifies his action by calling it "saving the planet", though it really is to satisfy his shinra hate boner. Only when he interacts with Marlene is the hate truly gone.
In the "remake" they make him less consumed; a "good guy" and when he does have tantrums, they are often exaggerated.
FF7O Barret wouldn't make silly jokes in the first mission. FF7O Barret wouldn't go back to sector 7 to check on things after the plate fell. After he knew Marlene was safe, and after making excuses to Elmyra, the mission was back on.

I'm not sure I agree with this because no one goes back to check on sector 7, but to say that Tifa wouldn't, for example, because she didn't in the original is hard for me to believe. It's hard for me to believe that the Barret that experience his own hometown burning wouldn't feel anything for the people of sector 7. I think in OG he was wreckless and irresponsible as a leader due to being blinded by hatred for Shinra, but I don't think he was ever heartless. I also don't find it a stretch that Barret has a sense of humor, since he was always throwing shade at Cloud from the beginning in OG, not to mention the stairs in Shinra HQ infiltration.

I'm not saying he is a totally different character, but by "fleshing him out" they remove some, and they add some. Some for the better. Most of it because he needs to be "likeable", which, imo, is rather transparent. Again, marketing.

I agree with this to an extent, but I think this is a bit exaggerated. He is about 95%+ the same in FF7 Remake as he is in FF7 OG. You have to really stretch out the details to say he is very different at all.
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] FF7 remake discussion time!
Post by: gjoerulv on 2020-05-08 00:43:58
but to say that Tifa wouldn't, for example, because she didn't in the original is hard for me to believe. It's hard for me to believe that the Barret that experience his own hometown burning wouldn't feel anything for the people of sector 7. I think in OG he was wreckless and irresponsible as a leader due to being blinded by hatred for Shinra, but I don't think he was ever heartless.

I'm not suggesting he is heartless. It's his emotions that drives him, 'cause he lost so much dear to him. At this point in the story, Barret wouldn't be onboard going back IF the choice was between that and rescue Aerith. If he was pushed to do it, he would reluctantly follow, probably being angry about it. Tifa would not be angry, and agree to follow. Tifa is quick to agree to go to the HQ mainly because of Cloud.

Also, the situation in the remake is different. In the original there is little to suggest this many people survived. What we consistently see during the plate incident is that people don't want to leave. Not that there couldn't be any big evacuation operation going on in the original.

I agree with this to an extent, but I think this is a bit exaggerated. He is about 95%+ the same in FF7 Remake as he is in FF7 OG. You have to really stretch out the details to say he is very different at all.

Hmm, welp, if people agree he is this similar, 95%+, then I guess he is only 1.05 better in the remake at most. ;D ;D
Not sure what you mean by stretch out the details. Nitpicky? Imo, the differences is not only the small details, but he is more similar than different, I think anyone would agree to that.
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] FF7 remake discussion time!
Post by: sackyachouchie on 2020-05-08 01:55:18
Hmm, welp, if people agree he is this similar, 95%+, then I guess he is only 1.05 better in the remake at most. ;D ;D
That is actually my opinion. I think the plus minus on Barret is 5% in either direction. If he is better, it wouldn't be much. If he is worse, I don't think it would be much either. But, we are also talking about Barret, who I think was one of the better attempts at portraying an OG character in this game. Out of the OG cast that they attempted to portray in remake, I think they were closest with Cloud and Barret.

Aerith's voice actress kills her character for me, so I can't even judge the writing properly.

Tifa is okay, but it seems like they really focused on her apprehension about Cloud's past rather than her attachment to him (which is perhaps a more important character trait). She seems slightly off to me.

There is too little of Red XIII for me to judge much.

I think they butchered Zack with his voice acting as well.

Sephiroth is diminished at least 10% by every unnecessary inclusion in the story, and by at %20 for each time he whispers anime tropes in Cloud's ear.

Biggs, Jessie, and Wedge were pretty good IMO, but I can definitely see how their "development" might not be stylistically or tonally consistent with the original, or to the tastes of the OG fans other than myself.

So really I think they did a good job with Cloud and Barret's characters, and could have done better with everyone else in the main cast.

Not sure what you mean by stretch out the details. Nitpicky? Imo, the differences is not only the small details, but he is more similar than different, I think anyone would agree to that.
That's pretty much what I meant. I think these details are within the margin of error of interpretation. That doesn't mean they aren't possibly valid, I just think its a stretch to state it as a fact, let alone a very consequential fact if so.
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] FF7 remake discussion time!
Post by: -Ric- on 2020-05-08 02:03:37
Calling Barret a complete moron isn't honest though.

Hm it kinda is though. He is by far the least intelligent person in the group. Yes, including Cait Sith. Since he's controlled by Reeve and it's pretty clear that Reeve is far more intelligent than Barret, and including Yuffie, whom despite being a kid, actually manages to trick the entire party and steal everyone's Materia. Crap, even the Materia tutorial at the start of the game makes him sound like a complete buffoon. Same thing happens when Cloud is telling the story of his mission with Sephiroth in Nibelheim. It's actually sad that the leader of Avalanche is portrayed as complete donkey. Granted they were never meant to look like a well organized and capable terrorist gang but come on.

I don't know about translation mods and I don't care either. I'd rather stick with the official material even if it is flawed. I haven't even bothered with the PC version of the game in years as it takes longer to properly get all mods to work great together and bug-free than it does to Platinum the game on the PS4 lol. If they ever make it to an official release, hit me up and let me know. Until then, they mean crap to me. And they never will make it to an official release so that's that.

When I compare the Barret of the original game, from start to the end of Midgar ONLY, it's clear that the Barret in the remake is far more intelligent, far more calculated, far more funny, cares for Marlene far more and the development of his relationship with Cloud throughout the game is just so much more enjoyable to watch.

This is, of course, just my opinion. I totally understand if you don't agree.
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] FF7 remake discussion time!
Post by: Devina on 2020-05-08 02:30:24
I would argue Aerith is even more unintelligent than Barret.

When Avalanche bombs the sector, you find her strolling along, unphased while everyone else is panicking trying to get to safety. Her survival instincts aren't great.

Aerith goes on her own to find the city of the ancients, despite that Sephiroth is roaming the planet trying to oppose them, instead of staying with the group for safety which could've affected her survival.

Aerith writes 89 letters to Zack, and concludes he must've ditched her for another woman, despite how intimate they were. Give him the benefit of the doubt, jeez. You think she would've figured out after the 30th letter that something's wrong.

In the remake, she takes her sweet time trying to rescue Marlene during the plate fall. Grab the kid and go, don't spend 3 minutes talking to her.

Title: Re: [SPOILERS] FF7 remake discussion time!
Post by: -Ric- on 2020-05-08 02:39:13
I would argue Aerith is even more unintelligent than Barret.

When Avalanche bombs the sector, you find her strolling along, unphased while everyone else is panicking trying to get to safety. Her survival instincts aren't great.

Aerith goes on her own to find the city of the ancients, despite that Sephiroth is roaming the planet trying to oppose them, instead of staying with the group for safety which could've affected her survival.

Aerith writes 89 letters to Zack, and concludes he must've ditched her for another woman, despite how intimate they were. Give him the benefit of the doubt, jeez. You think she would've figured out after the 30th letter that something's wrong.

In the remake, she takes her sweet time trying to rescue Marlene during the plate fall. Grab the kid and go, don't spend 3 minutes talking to her.

She has successfully avoided Shinra's attempts to take her for years. Granted that they did not want to harm her, or else they could've easily forced her to go along from the start but still, it's a decent feat. She also gets around the slums on her own, despite all the dangers. She's not physically strong or "tough" and she's definitely no genius but she's not Barret-dumb either.

She also doesn't go to the City of the Ancients on her own out of stupidity, she knew exactly what could/would happen. She chose to go alone and attempt to cast Holy.

In the remake, she doesn't spend THAT long talking with Marlene either. Just enough to calm her down, gain her trust and take her to safety.
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] FF7 remake discussion time!
Post by: Devina on 2020-05-08 07:14:52
You just admitted, Aerith decided to go alone, and that's what strikes me as terribly selfish and stupid. Imagine if Yuna decided to say to her guardians "screw ya'll, I'm going to do this pilgrimage myself". Aerith is aware Sephiroth is out there, the guy with a huge sword who impaled a giant snake. Even Barret is smart enough to ask "why did she go herself?!"

I played the original translation of FF7, not Beacause, and I don't remember Barret being stupid or throwing random tantrums. I remember Barret asking a lot of questions, but that doesn't necessarily make him stupid, just inquisitive.

If anything, I feel the remake's Barret is more hot-headed and can't control himself. For example, in the elevator scene in the beginning, Cloud pisses off Barret. In the original, Barret shakes his hand while looking away, but ultimately holds it in. In the remake, Barret is like SAY THAT AGAIN and is basically shouting at Cloud for not caring about the planet. There is a scene of Barret threatening Shinra employees in the remake which I don't remember in the original. Also, in the remake, Barret throws an angry fit because Cloud scared Marlene, which I thought was extreme.

I was also disappointed that the remake left out the part where Barret says about Cloud's pay "but that gil is for Marlene's schooling!"
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] FF7 remake discussion time!
Post by: -Ric- on 2020-05-08 15:28:32
Selfish, absolutely. Stupid too obviously due to the outcome it had but not "dumb". She knew what would happen. She simply chose to sacrifice herself to save everyone.

There is a scene of Barret threatening Shinra employees in the remake which I don't remember in the original. Also, in the remake, Barret throws an angry fit because Cloud scared Marlene, which I thought was extreme.

If you mean the train scene, the same scene exists in the original. He nearly shoots the poor employee. In the original elevator scene, Cloud mostly just doesn't care about the speech. In the remake, he actually makes fun of Barret and tells him to get help (for hearing the planet talk, implying he needs mental help). So yeah, "say that again!" is not too unexpected of a reaction when you tell someone they need help with their mental state lol. And it's that same distrust and anger he has towards Cloud that makes their relationship great in the remake. You see it slowly changing and turning into respect, trust and even a bit of friendship.
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] FF7 remake discussion time!
Post by: IlMomo86 on 2020-05-08 16:53:14
You just admitted, Aerith decided to go alone, and that's what strikes me as terribly selfish and stupid. Imagine if Yuna decided to say to her guardians "screw ya'll, I'm going to do this pilgrimage myself".

I think that Yuna would. That is, if at some point Yuna realized that Tidus had somehow become the group leader and center and yet Tidus is a mythomaniac liar who attempted to strangle her, possibly because he is actually controlled by the enemy, say if once or twice Seymour gave orders and Tidus fell in trance and obeyed. Especially if Tidus has thrown a speech hours before, about getting a certain mass-destruction weapon before Seymour because Seymour has so many mindless slaves who could throw their life away to get the weapon for him, and then it is demonstrated that the mindless slave was none other than Tidus itself, who did in fact provide the mass-destruction weapon for Seymour.

Among all this, Yuna is also in love with Tidus, or what she perceives to be Tidus.

Yes, I think in such circumstances Yuna would distance herself from Tidus immediately. In Yuna's case the group is more connected to her than to Tidus, in Cloud's case is the opposite. Another reason to do exactly what Aeris did.

For as much as I utterly prefer Tifa, selfishness and stupidity hardly are traits of Aeris. Would nullify the whole story if they were, actually, since Aeris ultimately saves the day.

You know, I've spent most of my teenage and twenties saying that FF7 was an overrated game and undeservedly overshadowing other JRPGs but I'm in my thirties now and looking back, it's surprising to re-discover how foreseeing, vast, cohesive and deep the narrative was. I think most people don't even realize it fully. Which brings us to the next:

I don't mind the timeline shenanigans, I think it breathes a lot of new life in this story. I can see why it would annoy purists, but to me, it sort of feels like I'm experiencing something with more weight, as a sequel. It sort of makes me feel more connected to the characters and story more in a way.

I have an hard time realizing how you could think that Zack&co returning to life is a problem for the story themes and meaning and yet not despise the very same narrative device that made this insult of a plot twist possibile. A lone chapter was enough to destroy most of the FF7 themes all in a single shot, I am amazed about how lightheartedly people are taking this.

And purism have nothing to do with it. Screw Purists. But who are purists anyway? Nobody denies that the game was flat-out great because, and not despite, its differences. There were a lot of things that where entirely different in this FF7R, and all for the better. Biggs, Jessie, the Avalanche, Wutai, the Turks, Wall Market, Beautiful Bro, Honey Bee, Hojo's Lab, Barret. All different and revamped, and all utterly awesome. Why? Because they took the original and made expanded, modernized and re-imagined takes of it.

Chap18 is a different beast. It's spitting on all the themes that gave the story meaning and impact, and turning them to a childish Kingdomhearted narration where death, time, tragedy, effort, self-conscience and even ecology are all meaningless. And it was possibile with timelines and broken destinies. If that's what you call breathing new life in a story, well, you certainly are an happier person than I am right now.
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] FF7 remake discussion time!
Post by: Devina on 2020-05-08 19:58:38
Aerith went totally alone, and she was the last Cetra so she should've realized how important her life was. She was the only one who could obtain Holy, and if she didn't, the planet could be doomed. While sure, Cloud was acting sort of insane and possessed, she could've brought other teammates along with her for protection. Instead, they split into a "Aerith vs everyone else" party. This is the same logic why people shouldn't go alone in horror movies. Everyone just got lucky that Aerith was able to control the Lifestream in her death, if she wasn't powerful enough, then everyone would've died.

I don't see how adding some new themes (destiny, fate) is an insult. It's possible for a story to have multiple themes. It's not like they're going to be talking about light and darkness KH-style every hour in Part 2. Are the ecological themes suddenly removed from the story due to chapter 18? No, they're not. It's also extremely early to see where they're going with this. They could be using it to make things even more tragic, being unable to stop Aerith's death a second time. There's a chance Zack still died in another way, and perhaps Biggs will also end up dying. When the sector falls, they still portray it in a way to make you think Biggs and Jessie and Wedge all died, and Biggs/Jessie have much longer death scenes to make their roles and deaths seem more meaningful.

I also find it a bit offensive when people call Kingdom Hearts "childish", as if that's KH in a nutshell. Yes, KH is aimed at children as a demographic, but they also keep older fans in mind, which is why they add their insane tough critical modes, superbosses, etc. I grew up with KH, and it taught me a lot of deep themes about friendship, pursuing your own path, not giving up when things seem hopeless, etc. Just because a story has multiple timelines and time travel, it doesn't automatically make it childish.
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] FF7 remake discussion time!
Post by: IlMomo86 on 2020-05-09 13:31:09
she could've brought other teammates along with her for protection.

When you catch up with Seph/Jenova he is already at the northern crater with Black Materia. Consider that Aeris has to call Holy ASAP (which she ultimately does, but Sephiroth then contains it at the Planet's core). She's short on time. Finally, and most importantly, she should have convinced the group that
A: ditching Cloud's leadership was necessary (sort of easy, at that point, but not guaranteed)
and
B: summoning a spell that could potentially kill many or every human being was a good solution (not easy at all)
All while, I remark, she was pretty short on time. And consider that the only member in the party showing more connection with Aeris than others is Yuffie, which is sort of unreliable, and maybe RedXIII; Yuffie, like Cid and Caith Sith, cares a lot about worldly matters and would hardly play along with a plan that involves Holy. Though that is up to debate since in the end the party is convinced that Holy is necessary (that is, though, after Meteor proves indestructible), so yeah, maybe she could have spilled the beans. In the end, though, I'm not sure it would've changed that much.

I honestly suspect you didn't pay attention to the story in some steps the story takes.

I don't see how adding some new themes (destiny, fate) is an insult. It's possible for a story to have multiple themes.

Sure thing. As long as these themes don't contradict themselves. Many of the themes of FF7 are straight-up broken by what was presented in chap18. And besides, it also matters that you know how to handle these new themes (destiny, fate) and they're handed poorly. I'm not voicing my mere opinion here, though. I could write a demonstration, easily. But since it's a bit long, I'll put it in a following post and in a block, you may jump it if you're not interested.




It's not like they're going to be talking about light and darkness KH-style every hour in Part 2.

Probably not, no. But just saying "relax, it's not like it will be all like chap18!" speaks enough of chap18 actual quality compared to the rest of the content.

Are the ecological themes suddenly removed from the story due to chapter 18? No, they're not.

Suddenly removed, no; put at risk, yes. See the spoiler blocks in the following post if you're interested.

It's also extremely early to see where they're going with this. They could be using it to make things even more tragic, being unable to stop Aerith's death a second time. There's a chance Zack still died in another way, and perhaps Biggs will also end up dying. When the sector falls, they still portray it in a way to make you think Biggs and Jessie and Wedge all died, and Biggs/Jessie have much longer death scenes to make their roles and deaths seem more meaningful.

Once again, saying "relax! Zack is alive, but there's a chance he'll die regardless!" is a good signal of how good of a choice is to make some deaths who where definitive and certain (Zack, Biggs, Jessie, etc) as temporary and modifiable events. You're basically saying that you're happy knowing (or rather, believing) that they'll get back on-track, and yet going off track was good still. I don't get this logic.

And it's terribly meta-narrative too. It assumes that only those who played the original FF7 will play the remake, so certain events can carry their weight only if made uncertain. But for new players, what's the meaning of the Zack scene? None.

Just because a story has multiple timelines and time travel, it doesn't automatically make it childish.

A story can be very mature even involving resurrections, or time travel, or timelines. The point is what you do with it. Childish narrative is childish when it doesn't take responsability, and writes only what makes the writer or the reader or both the happiest, without any regard for the premises, rules and themes of the story. I'd certainly have been happier as a 11 year old if Aeris just came back at the end of the game, but she didn't. And that made the story more meaningful and good. Making me "happier" back then would have been childish.
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] FF7 remake discussion time!
Post by: IlMomo86 on 2020-05-09 16:28:59
FF7 themes: 1.acceptance 2.loss 3.ecology 4.consumism/fake news 5.cosmic horror&psychology (aka: Sephiroth)
FF7R themes: 1.destiny 2.freedom

For all the FF7 themes the whispers-subplot changes do more harm than good.

For the FF7R themes the whispers-subplot is handled poorly.


FF7 themes:
Spoiler: show

1. acceptance
Destiny and fate are hardly suited for a protagonist that is the entire opposite of a chosen hero. Cloud is such an amazing protagonist because he is weak, petty, unstable, and even submissive. He is presented as a somewhat cool jerk but then revealed to be a weakling, an impostor and pretty much a serf to evil, which makes his initial pretended coolness even more upsetting. He rises up from that through humility, sincerity, acceptance, friendship and effort. Proposing him as someone chosen by the Planet's planned Destiny, a fated hero to face with Sephiroth  on equal terms (and they even interact on equal terms, something that Sephiroth did never do in the original game) undermines all of it. Cloud was chosen by no one and became a hero through an hard path. The Planet had no "plan" for Cloud, in fact the only one who had a plan for Cloud is Sephiroth, a plan Cloud follows through until he accepts who he really is. Throw in that the Planet has a destiny for him and you diminish all of this.

2. loss
What's the point of an irreplaceable loss if there are multiple timelines? If you can fight destiny and negate death, even deaths that have already happened? The tragedy of death is that it is final and irreversible, a story about death that want a tiny bif of educational value should respect that. As the story is headed now, to convey a sense of loss you should make the point that timelines are multiple but certain events still happen no matter what and/or timelines cannot interact with each other. Meaning you'll have to contradict and nullify your own premises. Otherwise, the concept of loss is greatly devalued. See Rick&Morty, where alt. timelines carry the necessary consequence that the universe-travelers are emotionally detatched and depressed since nothing matters much. No surprises that everyone is saying: "keep calm! Aeris will still die somehow I'm sure!" which in and of itself shows that opening up the chance that she doesn't is already a pejorative change.

3. ecology
As I said, I think you missed a few story steps. The original game left open to interpretation if Holy killed humanity or not, or if didn't kill humanity but destroyed big metropolis like Midgar, Junon, etc. This was a beautiful counter-point to the human assumption that humanity=good; the characters mention this, saying that safety of the Planet is in itself something to fight for since without the Planet the demise of the human race is not a risk but a certainty, so they go along with Aeris plan. This was already devalued in Advent Children and Dirge of Cerberus, who postulated that Holy did just some unspecified damage to Midgar and nothing more. RedXIII in the remake explicitly says that the "written" future (with the Midgar ruined and covered in vegetation) is one to avoid, meaning that summoning Holy and allowing it to defend the Planet is likely a "bad ending". Which strongly implies that the good ending is a far less controversial way to neutralize Meteor without bothering humans. Further implied by the fact that the whispers are the will of the Planet according to RedXIII, so beating the whispers means opposing the Planet. The provoking trope of: who's better, the Planet or Humans? Is gone.

4. consumism and fake news
that is arguably treated and shown better in the remake than in the original, and nothing about chap18 undervalues it directly, it just overshadows the whole theme of "we are a band of rogues in a world that thinks that Shinra is progress and comfort". Since speaking of a consumist society who willingly refuses to believe the truth in order to preserve their convenience is a very down-to-earth matter, and borders into politicaly commentary; inevitably "fighting fate incarnate" drives the plot away from it.

5. cosmic horror&psychology
the villain of FF7 was a succesful combination of different themes. Seph in himself is a de-humanized person created by Shinra to function as a propaganda tool and living weapon, so he is in a way the personification of humanity's sins. But he is also credible psychologically. His extreme loneliness, fragile identity, need for a mother's affection and founded sense of estrangement are all very sound reasons to do what he does. He essentially aspires to merge with every soul and become everybody, both punishing humanity for making a tool of him, erasing his identity problem and finding a "mother"; he is coherent, and thus well-written. Jenova, on the other hand, is a lovecraftian shapeshifting alien who merges with every body and psyche and then moves to the next planet, so it's perfectly coherent that she profits from having Sephiroth as a powerful vessel. The boundaries between Sephiroth and Jenova are unclear, as both share the same goal and view the other as a very crucial part of themselves or even as the necessary evolution of themselves. Both are coherent antagonists in their motivations and coherent one to the other. Good writing. This masterpiece relationship was already devalued by Nomura stating that Sephiroth's will has erased Jenova in an interview years later (which was contradicted anyway by Nomura himself via Advent Children, Dirge of Cerberus, Crisis Core etc)  and in chap18 is entirely thrown out of the window, by making Sephiroth show more interest in Cloud and Cloud's doing -with interactions that are a far cry from their original ones- than in merging with the lifestream. In the Sec5 Church sequence Sephiroth even states to Cloud in japanese "I am your tyrant" (in english: "I am your everything") something Sephiroth would never ever say in the original game, where he considers Cloud just another one of his pawns. In short, Sephiroth is re-elaborated as Cloud's personal nemesis and tormentor, or "Cloud's inner darkness" as Nomura stated when talking about their relationship in (remarkably) Kingdom Hearts. The disparity in interactions between the two were extremely disturbing in the original, as they also hinted to Cloud's lies, besides Sephiroth's trascendent nature. So in short yes, chap18 did much of a disservice to Sephiroth's character as it possibly could.


FF7R themes
Spoiler: show

1. Destiny
Postulating that the Planet has a "plan" specified for every individual is already a fragile narrative choice, but it becomes downright absurd if the "plan" has to be concretely executed by some invisibile specters. Destiny has a meaning as a concept when physical events and people actions (and thus, their will) are manipulated into a global plan, not if there is a thinking entity that orders some specters to contradict what actually happens. The whispers are not really overseeing fate, they are retconning reality. Which they could do if they either are outside of a self-consistent time (like the aliens in the movie Arrival) and therefore no one would have a prayer of harming them unless they intended, or they are ineffible, omniscient and all-powerful beings with their own agenda (like the Occuria of FF12) which would make THEM those who "defy destiny", actually, and wrecking their plans by beating the sh** out of them impossible, moreso with the limited power Cloud&co have at that point. They are entirely illogical no matter how you slice it. But assuming they were, and with a few slices shots and punches you can somehow "break" destiny, it makes sense if the road of destiny is opened AFTER the event, not before it; meaning you could get Aeris to live, but not Zack (or Biggs, etc); and if somehow it's broken even before it, why is it broken at some points and not others? Why the destiny of Zack's death should be rewritten and not that of Zack's birth? Or has beating a bunch of ghosts on a highway in Midgar opened a Schroedinger wide range of millions of parallel timelines including some where Zack or Cloud or Sephiroth or mankind was never born? Only extremely coherent and attentive writers can manage timeline altering, and the writing here is entirely incoherent to its own premises.

Now when you make your own fantasy laws in a fantasy story and you cannot follow them yourself, what is it? Bad writing.

2. Freedom: here it gets entirely meta-narrative. Because it's not the characters freedom that was obtained by beating the whispers, as the character are none the wiser than before; it was the writers. The characters are blindfolded about fate as they were in the original timeline where fate didn't even get into consideration. Therefore either 1)beating the whispers bear no consequence or 2)the characters start behaving in a fundamentally different way and making fundamentally different choices without rhyme or reason or 3)the characters must from now on follow the lead of someone who sees beyond destiny be it Seph, Aeris, Bugenhagen or whatever, to make use of the branching paths they opened, since they themselves have no clue.

Which means essentially means than in 1) and 2) it's flat-out bad writing as it disregards cause-effect, in case 3) they are less free now than they were before. In short, it's not Cloud&co's freedom you fought for in chap18, it's Nomura's, Kitase's etcetera.


Keep in mind that none of this is proof that part2 will suck. At all. It only proves how narratively misplaced and bad the changes of chap18 are and most part2's good will come from getting back on track, if they do.
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] FF7 remake discussion time!
Post by: Devina on 2020-05-09 19:00:57
Aerith could've brought Barret with her at least for protection, since I feel Tifa might not want to abandon Cloud.

I think the plot being set in another timeline (or "going off track" as you call it) is good just because I find it interesting, entertaining and exciting, and makes me feel like I'm having a new journey, rather than the same one I had before, just in HD. It's a remake, and everyone should know that remakes tend to change things up and add new concepts and ideas, which is why I think the hate for the ending is overblown. People should expect it.

Also, I don't think the remake assumes everyone has played the original. I think the point of the remake's ending is to entice people to play the original and Crisis Core, which is fine by me. Is the timeline stuff confusing? Sure, but it's also been confusing for people who have played the original. They don't spend more than 5-10 mins of this 40 hour game on this "original timeline" idea, so I see it as more as a bonus to those who've played the original, not a requirement that people must play the original first. Nearly all the major plot beats are the same.

And maybe I didn't always pay attention. It's a long game, and when people start talking about spells and ancient prophecies and what not, I zone out a bit.
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] FF7 remake discussion time!
Post by: Kefka on 2020-05-10 06:56:28
Quote
It's a remake, and everyone should know that remakes tend to change things up and add new concepts and ideas, which is why I think the hate for the ending is overblown. People should expect it.

Except for the fact that Square Enix has already done faithful remakes of FF games in the past (think FF3 and FF4 on the DS), and unlike this remake here, they stayed VERY faithful to their original stories. They merely tweaked a few gameplay mechanics, and added names and a slight glimpse of personality to the FF3 protagonists, but the stories were otherwise untouched. So it was only natural that many players expected a similar approach here, especially since the developers stated in interviews multiple times over the years that they only plan on EXPANDING the original story, but not ALTERING it altogether (and if that wasn't a flat out LIE, then I don't know what is). Take for example this interview from March 2020, merely weeks before the release:

https://www.gamespot.com/articles/final-fantasy-7-remake-is-a-very-faithful-recreati/1100-6475164/ (https://www.gamespot.com/articles/final-fantasy-7-remake-is-a-very-faithful-recreati/1100-6475164/)

Also, I think most people aren't upset that there are changes to the story per se, but rather due to the fact that most of these changes were for the worse (that list is VERY long indeed), and in the whispers' case even pretty much openly declared the story of the original to be null and void now.

As others have already stated, there are certain steps and rules that authors must follow if they want their plot device to work properly. a) They have to set it up in advance by leaving hints all along the way before the plot twist happens to make sure that it doens't feel arbitrary or contrived, and b) they have to make sure that any new additional elements still fit within the overall world and lore of their respective story, or it will feel wierd and out of place to the audience. This latter point is especially important when dealing with a world and lore that have already been firmly established and well-defined for many years! In the whispers' case, they apparently did neither.

A plot device in a remake is simply not good when the possibilty of it's existence has never even been hinted at anywere in the original game (nor in any of the compilation material) and was only just made up for this remake, thereby creating the feeling that it came completely out of nowhere, for no logical reason.

A plot device is even worse when it clearly and openly contradicts elements from the original plot.

And a plot device is the worst imaginable when it even contradicts its very own reason for existence, in this case "keeping time/fate on track", because sometimes the whispers do the exact opposite of that: They attacked 7th Heaven until Jesse broke her ankle, making sure that she and Wedge wouldn't come along on the second bombing mission, when in the original timeline, they did come along. They saved Wedge from the plate drop by teleporting him away even though in the original timeline, he died there. Indeed it seems like Nomura has a hard time following even his own premises!

So the problem with the whispers was not only that it was a new and bad Deus-ex-machina-like plot device, but that it was also implemented in a very clumsy and poor way.

Quote
Nearly all the major plot beats are the same.

I beg to differ, as that's exactly where they screwed up most of the time. Even without the whole time-travel-stuff, there's illogical, badly written scenes all over the place. The instances where their additions/changes were for the better are the exception rather than the rule. Off the top of my head, I can only think of two: visiting Jesse's parents, and having Tseng talk to the party over a monitor rather than being present only seconds before the plate falls. Pretty much all other changes/additions they made were either unnecessary or even detrimental to the story (and as I said, that list is LONG).
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] FF7 remake discussion time!
Post by: IlMomo86 on 2020-05-10 09:30:12
@Devina

Ok, you don't always pay attention, but at least pay attention to what has been said right now.

Aerith could've brought Barret with her at least for protection, since I feel Tifa might not want to abandon Cloud.

Clearly you find more credible storytelling in Aerith convincing someone that Cloud is compromised, Meteor will come and be absolutely unstoppable, and the best solution is using a weapon which acts on its own and could potentially decide to wipe humanity away, rather then Aerith just saying ok cannot rely on these humans and go off by herself and do my Cetra stuff. What can I say, it's a fine line, I'm not going to argue with you over it.


I think the plot being set in another timeline (or "going off track" as you call it) is good just because I find it interesting, entertaining and exciting,

I find FFXIII to be interesting and entertaining due to unique feel, amazing lore and stunning art direction, doesn't imply it is well-written or well-structured and I would certainly never argue with someone that it had been overall a disappointing game. You are entirely entitled to find entertaining or exciting whatever you wish as much as anyone, it doesn't speak for its quality though.


It's a remake, and everyone should know that remakes tend to change things up and add new concepts and ideas, which is why I think the hate for the ending is overblown. People should expect it.

No they shouldn't. People shouldn't want a remaster (which would be "the same journey, only on HD") but not a reboot either. A remake is a specific thing. It's allowed to change and add (and as I already said, most changes where good in my book) but not to warp the whole meaning and concept of the plot. Which it did. Technically though, since Sephiroth here clearly KNOWS what happened in the original game, as does Aerith, it's  not even a reboot and is a straight-up sequel. The farthest thing from a remake that was possible.

Also, I don't think the remake assumes everyone has played the original. I think the point of the remake's ending is to entice people to play the original and Crisis Core, which is fine by me.

Then you are basically saying I am correct. It's a narrative that requires you to know other narratives to be appreciated and, most importantly, at least understood. Bad writing again, with marketing in mind.


Is the timeline stuff confusing? Sure, but it's also been confusing for people who have played the original.

There's nothing bad about confusing plots. The point being, contrivance should be there to enpower the plot's meaning and message, not to devalue it.
 
. Nearly all the major plot beats are the same.

No they're not. I've invested ten minutes of my time writing a post about it, and I don't see you contradicting anything, so as I said, the plot beats cannot be the same, and most importantly they cannot bear the same meaning anymore.
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] FF7 remake discussion time!
Post by: IlMomo86 on 2020-05-10 09:32:33
@Kefka:

(and if that wasn't a flat out LIE, then I don't know what is).

Oh yeah, that too. I almost forgot, thanks. False advertising more or less.

visiting Jesse's parents, and having Tseng talk to the party over a monitor rather than being present only seconds before the plate falls.

Come on now, there are quite a few more than that, which were good.
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] FF7 remake discussion time!
Post by: Kefka on 2020-05-10 14:11:16
@Kefka:
Come on now, there are quite a few more than that, which were good.

Granted, most of the "normal" dialogue scenes between party members, Avalanche members and most NPCs were actually well done. I liked the Avalanche dynamic, Barret's "Mr. T style" (I've always imagined him like that), Aerith's flirting with Cloud, and the Turks were also pretty cool (I especially liked Reno).

The arena in Wall Market was interesting as well, fitting for the overall atmosphere of the location.

And I quite liked that you could sabotage Airbuster, thereby influencing the fight's difficutly depending on which components you select.

So you're right, I guess there were certainly several good and enjoyable moments, I'll admit that. There's still quite a few bad story changes they pulled (mostly towards later in the game) that tend to overshadow the good parts. You've already said yourself that the remake undermines and devalues several important themes and plot points from the original, and I whole-heartedly agree with you there.
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] FF7 remake discussion time!
Post by: Devina on 2020-05-10 20:02:18
I would argue FF7R is a remake-reboot-sequel, all at once, not just one or the other. Who says remakes aren't allowed to change the meaning/concept of the plot? This is the definition on Wikipedia:

"A remake tells the same story as the original but uses a different cast and may alter the theme or target audience."

Imo, FF7R tells the same story for the most part so it counts as a remake. Is it getting into a murky territory a bit? Sure, but whatever.

Again, I just view the "timeline/Zack" stuff as a bonus, not a requirement. Newcomers will still be able to understand 95% of the overall story which is why I don't have issues.

I still think the major plot points (bombing of reactor, Cloud meeting Aerith, Cloud planning to bomb a second reactor, Cloud and Aerith being chased by Reno in the church, Cloud and Aerith trying to rescue Tifa in Corneo's mansion, the plate falling, rescuing Aerith at the Shinra Building, etc) are the same.
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] FF7 remake discussion time!
Post by: -Ric- on 2020-05-10 20:20:06
Again, I just view the "timeline/Zack" stuff as a bonus, not a requirement. Newcomers will still be able to understand 95% of the overall story which is why I don't have issues.

I view it as an opportunity for a Crisis Core sequel that would take place in an alternative timeline and could be an entirely new story, instead of following FF7/FF7 Remake.
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] FF7 remake discussion time!
Post by: IlMomo86 on 2020-05-10 20:44:27


"A remake tells the same story as the original but uses a different cast and may alter the theme or target audience."

Imo, FF7R tells the same story...

I don't mean no offense, but I can't understand under what contrived logic something can be a sequel of storyXYZ and still be storyXYZ. If Aerith, Sephiroth and RedXIII know the original timeline and will alter this timeline using that knowledge, this is literally, logically and undeniably the prosecution of the FF7 compilation.

The prosecution of a story can be a remake of that story as much as you can be a new hairstyle of your grandfather. Entirely illogical.

Did they state explicitly over and over again that it would've been a faithful remake? Yes. Is that lying? Yes. No murky territory here. None.

Now if you like being sold one product with the name of another, your own taste, good for you. It's reasonable to expect that some people don't. And the fact that literally 17/18th of this game is exactly what we asked and paid for is what makes us so carefree. Rest assured that if the next game will be all like chap18 you'll get a very different reaction.

Again, I just view the "timeline/Zack" stuff as a bonus, not a requirement. Newcomers will still be able to understand 95% of the overall story which is why I don't have issues.

I don't care at all what you have issues with or not. Your tastes matter to me as mine should matter to you, which is to say, nothing. I am discussing bad or good writing here, not tastes. You found FF7R ending to be terrific? Fantastic, I'm happy for you. No objections here. Was it good writing? No.

And it's not an opinion, it's simple logic. Was it necessary to make Zack survive in order for FF7R to be a better story? No.

You can argue that it will help keeping the hype up for the next chap, or it will help sell a new game about Zack? Will people be bothered by not knowing who Zack is or Zack is at this point well-known enough? None of this has any relevance. The only relevant thing is, it didn't do any good to the plot. You're not even trying to contradict this. You're just saying it won't do that much damage. I hope you're correct. It further proves my point though.

I still think the major plot points (...) are the same.

First,
you seem unable to discern the theme of a story from the events of a story. If I add just a single tiny line at the end of King Arthur's story and that single line happens to be:
"And Arthur reigned like a tyrant, drowning the country in tears and blood for decades until he passed away"
I have altered what the story is about. I have distorted the meaning, the theme of the arthurian epic. You may come here and say: "But it's just one line of text, there are literally THOUSANDS of lines who are still faithful to the original!" But you'd look like a fool. Because your objection holds no ground. The story is shattered no matter how you look at it.

Now, in FF7R case things are not as tragic, but repeating obsessively that most events are the same shows indifference to what the story is about.

Second,
I think you should take notice that the devs already released interviews, essentially confessing to the audience that they are monitoring our response to the ending to understand what the fans want.

Meaning, if those who want a brand new Nomura-style product will amount to the majority, the story will go more and more off-track, if not the story will play similar to the first game, with nearly everything faithfully reproduced until a disruptive element comes in.

This alone, admitted to-your-face by the devs, says enough about how sincerely authorial the new ending is.
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] FF7 remake discussion time!
Post by: Devina on 2020-05-10 22:28:46
https://www.gamespot.com/articles/final-fantasy-7-remake-is-a-very-faithful-recreati/1100-6475164/

They said it would be faithful in the sense that it keeps a lot of the original story structure and plot beats, but also said there would be new additions. They were right about that. I don't see any dishonesty.

Quote
Was it good writing? No. And it's not an opinion, it's simple logic.

Aaaaaand I'm noping out of this convo. I can only take so much "this is objectively bad" before I lose my sanity. People who act like their opinions are more than just opinions, I can't deal with.
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] FF7 remake discussion time!
Post by: The Black-caped Man on 2020-05-11 10:59:59
What he meant is its objectively bad for ppl that have some kind of expectation and that know the old games and their standards in terms of plot devices. Just like Star Wars 7-9 the writing and plot additions are (sadly) good enough for the dumb mass which keeps square and other companies making profit and in the future lower the standards even more because who the hell cares as long as ppl buy it and the majority likes it (because they are the dumb mass).
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] FF7 remake discussion time!
Post by: IlMomo86 on 2020-05-11 17:50:54
They said it would be faithful in the sense that it keeps a lot of the original story structure and plot beats, but also said there would be new additions. They were right about that. I don't see any dishonesty.

"This will be a faithful remake of Captain America movie. Except for a three minutes scene at the end where it's revealed that Cap is actually a serial rapist. But it's only a three minutes scene, the movie will be very faithful for the most part. Enjoy".

Your review: "I cannot fathom why people don't understand how 3 minutes are mathemathically less than the remaining 117 thus the story didn't really change much. In fact it's only the 2,6% different. What's the fuss about?".


Aaaaaand I'm noping out of this convo. I can only take so much "this is objectively bad" before I lose my sanity. People who act like their opinions are more than just opinions, I can't deal with.

Opinions are reasonings. If all were equal and undistinguishable there would be no point in even discussing them.

"I think racism is a-ok, socially productive and well founded within science".
"Well, actually it's not, you see, tons of literature can prove otherwise".
"I have my opinion and it entails that I entirely disregard all of that literature".
"I too have an opinion I thus I must respect that you also do".
"There you have it, you cannot touch my opinion".
"Correct, neither can you".
"Cool".
"Cool".

This whole "I have my opinion thus I cannot be contradicted" is the trademark for people who don't want to discuss. Which is fine mind you. Online discussions, though, require an ability to make a case and stand for it. If you cannot, chances are you're wrong. As easy as that.

And after pages and pages of literally a detailed description of when, how and why the additions don't go well with the story, which you don't bother to answer to let alone object or contradict, you're quite disrespectful too.

If the strongest points you can make is that any narrative change is equal to any other and any opinion is valid as any other, I suggest you stop bothering. I certainly will.
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] FF7 remake discussion time!
Post by: Izban on 2020-05-12 03:22:57
"This will be a faithful remake of Captain America movie. Except for a three minutes scene at the end where it's revealed that Cap is actually a serial rapist. But it's only a three minutes scene, the movie will be very faithful for the most part. Enjoy".

But but but didn't everyone see that 3 minutes. Seriously though the narrative changes aren't genuinely that bad, they are however contextually subjectively abhorrent to some while contextually so long as they build off it appropriately they could be amazing, as they stand however they are too open-ended for a definitive, it's a good narrative decision or not.

Warning opinion,  I feel they handled it well enough to make the story the way they did so far, not knowing what they are gonna do next with it is kind of exciting, so long as they handle the next part well which I have no reason to doubt post remake
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] FF7 remake discussion time!
Post by: LeonhartGR on 2020-05-12 07:11:17
【FF7】「更に闘う者達」&少年律動体操 (https://m.youtube.com/watch?feature=youtu.be&v=MfsRk7kD-Hc)
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] FF7 remake discussion time!
Post by: Kefka on 2020-05-12 07:42:58
The problem is not just chapter 18, though. There have been bad or at least meaningless changes to the plot throughout the entire game, some of which deeply affect the overall tone of the narrative, or are detrimental to the story as a whole, or sometimes even outright ignore common sense. There have been good changes/additions as well, but the list of the bad changes/additions is arguably way longer even without mentioning chapter 18 at all. Here's some examples that disturbed me the most:

1: Shinra blowing up their own reactors – we've already talked about that one a few pages earlier. Not only is it retconning the original plot, it also makes ZERO sense for Shinra to do that. Imagine if you were the owner/manager of a factory, and there's a rival you want to get rid of. Now, competition has always been rather harsh in the business world, and sometimes certain companies go a little out of their way to damage a rival/enemy, even with illegal methods in some cases (happens in the real world as well). But would you really go as far as blowing up your own factory just so you could get back at your enemy? No, you wouldn't (I hope). After all, who in their right mind would nuke away their own income?

As already stated in earlier posts, Shinra has plenty of other options to deal with Avalanche. They've got the world's largest military at their disposal, they control politics and the media. A handful of amateur rebels is certainly no serious match for them, even though they made Avalanche bigger in the remake (but that's another story altogether). A few search-and-destroy-missions throughout the slums should do the trick. As for their plan to raise the people's patriotic spirit for another war with Wutai: if they wanted to fake some Avalanche bombings for that, they could've used targets of lesser importance. Administrative buildings for example, or maybe a train station... anything OTHER than a reactor! In fact, if they're striving for another war with Wutai, that'd be one more reason NOT to bomb their reactors. Surely no country would seriously consider crippling their own finances and economy on the eve of an important war, would they? Shinra has always been portrayed as evil and reckless in the original, but never as dumb, and nuking their own reactors is just that.

The point is that (imho) even in a fictional world and story, the various characters' behavior still has to be somewhat believable and comprehensible, like how people in the real world might behave if they found themselves in a similar situation. Believability is arguably the most important point when it comes to successful immersion into a fictional world. If the world's believability is lost due to a character's incomprehensible actions, the immersion breaks. Simple as that.

In addition, this plot change also sheds an entirely different light on the story in another aspect: In any conflict, it's usually difficult to claim that one side is purely good and the other is purely evil, as it all depends on different points of view. What some people call terrorists, others call freedom fighters. What some people practice as their religion, others call heresy. Some people say that abortion is murder, others say that it's the woman's right to choose her own fate (not Nomura's kind of fate, lol ;D). It's the same with Avalanche vs Shinra: The Shinra may be the bad guys (for the most part), but that doesn't automatically make Avalanche the good guys. The point from the original game was that Avalanche was doing the wrong things for the right reasons, but it also made clear that the end doesn't justify the means. Much later in the game, when Cait Sith/Reeve confronts them about it, both Barret and Tifa show remorse for their actions in the early game, admitting that what they did was wrong and “can never be forgiven.” The lesson here was that people can learn from their past mistakes, grow and evolve through them to find a new path in life, and maybe even try to redeem themselves through their actions now. The original game did a really good job at conveying that message. The remake, however, discards that thoughtfulness in favor of a much more simplistic black-and-white labeling, which (imho) robs the story of a certain layer of depth.

2: I actually liked the overall idea of visiting Jesse's parents. More background stories for the Avalanche members is certainly neat. And looting a Shinra warehouse... seems reasonable as well. Shinra probably holds a monopoly on all weapon types, so Avalanche would have to get their equipment by stealing from them. So yeah, this is something that I could actually picture Avalanche doing, that chapter is probably their best example of a meaningful expansion of the original plot, and I even give them probs for that.

But when it comes to the actual implementation of that idea, we get... Roche... not once, but twice... Who is this guy? Why is he always looking to pick a fight with someone? Is he just some random adrenaline junkie? We get no background information about him, his origins, his reasons, or whatever, all we get are some crazy over-the-top motorbike stunts, and after he's gone, he's never even mentioned again for the rest of the game. Not exactly the proper way to introduce a character, is it?

Now one might argue that Roche's character will eventually be explained in future episodes, but I think from what we saw it's kinda obvious that he's only in here as fan-service. They wanted someone to do motorbike duels with Cloud because someone at SE (insert name of your “favorite” writer here) thought it looked cool. To me, it simply was yet another immersion breaker. That dude has the word “obsolete” stamped in bold letters all across his forehead.

3: The Sector 7 plate drop. The battle at the pillar itself was actually fine and all, and it even featured a rare IMPROVEMENT over the original plot by showing Tseng and captured Aerith over a monitor rather than in a helicopter on site. That one always bugged me a little bit in the original, Tseng's chopper was still there when the bomb at the pillar exploded, and some of the debris actually got dangerously close, lol! So the approach from the remake with Tseng contacting them from a safe distance seems more reasonable indeed.

So what am I criticizing here? Well, the whole scenario before, during, and after the drop, actually. It's no secret that SE was desperately trying to stretch the game at every possible (or impossible) opportunity, otherwise they wouldn't have managed to make Midgar 40 hours long. But the whole plate drop chapter was definitely the wrong place for that. Ever since Don Corneo revealed Shinra's plan, the party knew that they didn't have any time to lose, yet somehow they manage to waste valuable time at several occasions:

They chat around with various ghosts in the train graveyard as if they were just taking a relaxing walk in the park...  After defeating Eligor, they just dilly-dally there staring at the beautiful sight of the souls that were freed, seemingly forgetting that they have something important to do... Really, SHOULDN'T THEY BE IN A HURRY??? And after reaching the slums, Aerith is supposed to go fetch Marlene, and FAST, right? Well, except she's anything but fast. When she warns Tifa's landlady and her friends about the impending plate drop, she again just stands there and has a nice little chat with them... upon hearing the news of the imminent danger, they should run for their lives immediately, right? Except, they don't... they just stand there and dilly-dally some more before finally agreeing on an evacuation... Honestly, is this realistic, believable behavior here? No. A believable, realistic scenario would've been Aerith simply running past them while shouting out loud “The plate's about to drop! Get out of this sector! Run for your lives, RUN!!!” She shouldn't have stopped even for a moment! Later on, she rescues another little girl, which is fine and all, except that it's one of those instances where the developers force the player to WALK SLOWLY! And Aerith even comforts the girl by telling her that there's “no need to rush”. Like, seriously? THE GODDAMN PLATE IS COMING DOWN ANY MOMENT, FOR GOD'S SAKE!! If this is no time to rush, then when is it? Really, the game's padding feels much more detrimental here than in any other chapter. The developers must've been truly desperate when they stall for time even in a scenario where TIME IS OF THE ESSENCE!

Finally, the whole plate drop itself is undermined by the fact that Biggs, Wedge and most slum residents survive due to a successful evacuation. Here I cannot help but wonder: what was their reasoning behind this? Are they really that afraid to depict death in a video game that they think they have to go out of their way and completely rewrite parts of the story? In the original, Biggs, Wedge, and Jesse died here, along with pretty much everyone else in the slums. Wham! Now THAT is how you deliver a shock to the audience. See, the main reason why I liked the idea of fleshing out the Avalanche members and giving them more background was that their eventual death would feel that much more devastating then. Only that doesn't happen, except for maybe Jesse (and even in that case we can't be too sure, maybe SE miraculously brings her back in the next episode, who knows?). Biggs is still alive, so his long dramatic dying speech at the pillar was all for naught, and feels obsolete in retrospect. Same with Wedge. As a result, it's not surprising that the plate drop in the remake didn't have nearly the same impact as in the original. They may show you the destroyed sector later on, sure... but at the same time they tell you that most people made it out alive anyway, so it never feels like the catastrophe which the original game presented.

All my remaining points cover events in the Shinra headquarters. Boy, what a mind-bendingly stupid mess this whole chapter was, but one thing after another:

4: So Mayor Domino is now a secret Avalanche member operating directly from the Shinra headquarters, right under their noses without them realizing it? Yeah right... Another instance of SE depicting Shinra as downright dumb. I'm gonna quote the remake's Reno on this one: “If you're gonna bullshit me, at least try to make it believable!”

5: Hojo blurting out that Cloud wasn't a Soldier... just like that... Now let that sink in for a moment and think about how this affects one of the most important plotlines of the original:

A LARGE portion of the game's story revolves around unraveling Cloud's past and who he is, why his memory seems to be fuzzy and inconsistent from time to time, and what really happened five years ago. The original game did a wonderful job at successfully deceiving the player for most of the game about Cloud's identity, and it only worked so well because the players simply accepted Cloud's version of the Nibelheim incident which he tells at Kalm. And why wouldn't they, as there's no reason to distrust the main character at this point, so it is taken as fact until well into disc 2. Cloud having been a Soldier was NEVER pulled into question until both Sephiroth and Hojo claim at the Northern Crater that Cloud's just another Sephiroth clone, and that's the point where the player starts to doubt. The big reveal which clears up everything isn't made until you're about two-thirds into the game, and it was one of the most brilliantly executed plot twists ever precisely BECAUSE the player was left in the dark and led down a wrong path for so long. In the remake, this whole deception obviously won't work anymore now. Rather, new players will now question Cloud's version of the Nibelheim events from the get-go, since they've already been told that Cloud wasn't a Soldier right at the story's beginning.

Of all the violations to the original plot that they pulled in this remake, this one has probably got to be the most serious. The game's biggest plot twist – one of the most famous in JRPG history – ruined in one single sentence... Wow... just... wow...

6: Hojo again. This time, he locks the party in his lab and tells them that he'll only let them out if they help him to collect “valuable combat data” by fighting some of his stuff... Come on, do I really have to elaborate on why this is garbage? On to the next one.

7: President Shinra's death scene. That one definitely stood out as the pinnacle of bad writing. Why is President Shinra hanging there? Was it Sephiroth? If so, why didn't he finish him off right away? When Barret and President Shinra go inside, why are the others not following them? Like what are they doing, gazing at the stars for several minutes without realizing what's going on inside, just a couple meters away from them? Why would President Shinra even bother threatening Barret when he knows that other Avalanche members were waiting behind him? Several units of his troops already failed at taking them down, so what are the chances that this middle-aged man without combat experience could accomplish that on his own? And why isn't Barret simply aiming back? Machine-gun beats colt any day.

Honestly, not a single character in this entire scene acts in a comprehensive way. Remember what I said about the importance of believable behavior even for fictional worlds? Well in this scene here, any and all believability goes completely down the drain.

In this case that's especially sad because this particular scene - and much of the Shinra headquarter before it - was a vital part of Sephiroth's introduction in the original. Most of the Midgar portion was dedicated to depicting Shinra as this seemingly insurmountable Titan that Avalanche cannot seem to overcome, no matter how hard they tried. After having half of their members killed in the plate drop, it ends with them being thrown in jail in the Shinra headquarters, unable to do anything but wait for their likely execution. Had they not received outside help from a so-far unknown third player, their little adventure would've ended right then and there. Enter Sephiroth... and all of a sudden Shinra doesn't look so unbeatable anymore.

The fact that they changed the entire Shinra building scenario completely in the remake (and omitted both the prison part and the bloodbath part) leads me to believe that Nomura and his fellow writers failed to understand the importance of this scene for Sephiroth's character building, even though he's never actually shown there in the original. So they think President Shinra's death scene is better in the remake because now you actually see the stabbing? Think again, because the point of this scene in the original was not to show to the player that President Shinra was dead. It was to make the player aware of the appearance of a new villain, one that even Shinra is helpless against, thus ushering in a new chapter in the narrative. While Shinra still sticks around as an enemy for most of the game, the role of the true threat has now clearly passed on to someone else.

In the remake, though, this entire message fails due to several bad decisions made previously: The plate drop didn't hit Avalanche as hard as in the original because Biggs and Wedge survived, the party never gets jailed, they make it through the entire building on their own without anyone else's help (no, Wedge's short appearance doesn't really help anyone), and in the end, they have the company leader in their hands. President Shinra is at their mercy now (quite the opposite tone of what the original game was trying to convey here). As a consequence, the president's death doesn't feel nearly as shocking anymore because he pretty much was already beaten before that.

8: This next one is actually part of the scene above. Barret getting killed and then revived immediately afterwards because “this death was not the one destined for him”. Don't even get me started on this... Nomura may call it a clever, unexpected plot twist. I call it a brain fart. 'Nuff said.

9: Boss battle against Jenova: way too early, with absolutely no context given. Who is this creature? What does it want? Why is Sephiroth carrying it around? Why do we have to fight it? The game never even bothers to explain anything about her, it simply assumes that the player already knows that from the original game. Didn't the developers claim that this remake was for both old fans and newcomers alike? Please explain to me how a newcomer who hasn't played FF7 before is supposed to make any sense of this boss battle.

The original once again handled this a whole lot better by describing Jenova's origins and background in detail first: we learn that she's a 2000 year-old Cetra discovered by Shinra's scientists, and that her genes were prenatally infused into Sephiroth, making her his “mother” in a metaphorical sense. Granted, some of that information turns out to be wrong later (her being an alien rather than an ancient), but that's beside the point. What matters is that by the time the first Jenova battle occurs, the player immediately knows that this battle is an important one because of all the information he received about her before. But in the remake they just throw you into battle with her without further ado. A newcomer can only think: “Big scary mutant thingy, it's probably evil, so we gotta kill it.” Good writers don't introduce important figures in such a way.

10: Chadley. Yes, it's Hojo's assistant that wants you to keep fighting in a simulator for some odd reason. And he reveals that reason after finishing the toughest optional boss in the simulator. And boy, what a reason this is: so Chadley is actually not a human, but an android, but his AI somehow developed a conscience (yes, like Skynet from Terminator, lol!) and now he wants to break free from Hojo's control. And watching humans battle in the simulator apparently allows him to rewrite his AI to accomplish just that...

The first time I watched this, I simply fell out of my chair laughing as I couldn't believe that level of nonsense, lol! ;D
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] FF7 remake discussion time!
Post by: IlMomo86 on 2020-05-12 12:12:58
@Kefka:

Good heavens, finally a decent discussion. Well, I agree and disagree with some points there. Let me know what you think.
Spoiler: show

1. Shinra/Domino: disagree. You see, what irked me since the beginning in the original game was that this superpowerful company had nothing so simple as a cam surveillance in its reactors and some modicum of (real) security in their HQ building, all of whom would've made Avalanche striking two important blows at Shinra impossible. The remake worked hard to make it believable, painting Avalanche as a more structured organization, Shinra as willing to play a charade, Wutai being (used as) a (perceived) threat and Domino as a double-agent rather than simply a moron. Granted it could've been executed better, but I appreciate the direction.

2. Terror strategy: disagree 95%; on a personal sidenote, I am italian. It has happened in the history of our country that intelligence-service and corrupted politician allowed their own citizens to be bombed, painting others as the culprit. And sadly, it also happened and was recorded, of managers to celebrate when an earthquake or similar destroyed whole cities, as they were worried that too little space was left for builders to profit. Two popular strategies are at play, "unite people with terror" and "if there's no demand, someone has to create it". It's not such a long stretch of imagination that an evil huge company who is willing to build its third megalopolis (after Midgar itself and Junon) would pull off such a trick. Fantasy -yes- but not that unbelievable. Bombing reactors is a very good way also to slow down the mako exhaustion and paint Midgar as an obsolete model to be replaced with the improved Neo-Midgar. Of course all of this holds together if Wutai is still depicted as a surrendered and inoffensive nation, as in the original, because if it will be portrayed as a serious force to be reckoned then bombing two reactors is a lot less credible. So I 5% agree.

3. Good Vs Evil: actually, disagree. The Shinra does the bombing, correct, but the group knows not, yet it doesn't stop anyone except Tifa from being willing to bomb again. Tifa suggests later that turning lightpower off will hurt the people of the slums, Barret rebuffs, Tifa complies. And since the damage done is a more stressed point, I'd say the only one who got a character expansion in this case is Tifa, and the group is still painted somewhat negatively, not to mention Cloud being a lot more merciless. Shinra on the other hand is expanded as well, with people being more clearly on Shinra's side than before, Cloud outright stating that Mako did indeed improve the life of many, and pres.Shinra speaking for his case twice, all provide some added layers.

4. Pres.Shinra: agree and disagree ... pres.Shinra is actually handled better, as a character. In the first time he makes the point that his actions are still supported by many consumers. And in the second occasion he says that without Shinra's man-power nobody could help anyone. Instead of being just a snobbish bastard, he makes a few good points. Granted though, the second chance he gets to throw his speech is quite an ill-written scene overall.

5. Jessie: yes, a good expansion. Not the only one though. I think that the Trio in the Wall Market sequence, along with Beautiful Bro Jules and a few other touches in that chapter were great stuff. It took the progressive tone of the story of 1997 (a game that had the audacity of showing a trans, a tailor with a cross-dressing passion, homosexuality and prostitution) and took it to 2020 with a thoughtful approach without becoming a boring political commentary but rather a silly and goofy section, as it was meant to be originally. Kazushige Nojima at its very best writing here. Characters in the slums like Floria and Mireille also served their purpose decently.

6. Roche: mostly agree. I appreciate the choice of showing actually a SOLDIER that gets called by name, since in the original game they were described as this super-elite Foxhound style army where not even one of them had any significance, power or ever the courtesy of a name. And I would agree with the writers that, if you had to insert any SOLDIER character it shouldn't be that much important, so the cocktail they proposed (a stereotypical "bloodknight" archetype with a pretended rivalry as comedic relief) is a good choice, in my book. It was so poorly executed, though, that it ends up as quite forgettable. In italian (dunno in english) he says: "It's been a while since I landed my feet on ground".... good heavens, what a stupid quote. Memes here in Italy about Roche having a shower and taking a dump while on his motorbike abounds.

7. Bad pacing: agree and disagree. The train graveyard and the underplate were added dungeons for sure, but at least they were expansion of interesting concepts in the original. Unlike the deepground lab, to mention one. And since Tifa and Cloud don't actually believe Corneo much, it is somewhat justified that they aren't in a hurry until they see the shinracopters going toward the pillar. A couple of times it gets trite, I agree with this. The "Drum" is a good idea (later on this) and the Deepground and second Sewers are atrocious.

8. Falling plate: it stands to reason that, even in the original, not just everyone in the slums died, since some were thinking about running away. It also stays true in the remake that hundreds of people died still. Showing the most important characters in the slums (Betty, Marle, Wymer) all alive and well, though, is admittedly too much mercy on the audience. But on to the hardest of points...

9. Biggs, Wedge and Jessie (yes, she too: notice the gloves in the desk beside Biggs) alive in the ending. This I consider to be the most serious offense. The events of their deaths were written and executed brilliantly, and preceded by due character developement to give them more impact. And bam, they bring it to this childish, unimaginative and dull conclusion. Everyone lives, whoooo-hooooo. Dunno if it was the Whispers' defeat or not, I don't care. How can you build everything up to such a beautiful goodbye sequence and then ruin it like this. I am shocked really, I think this is the worst of all the remake. Worse than Zack, and hinting at a very negative direction they could be taking this. I was speechless at such a waste of good narrative. Not going to go the route "I bet Kitase wrote the deaths and Nomura wrote their return" because I cannot be 100% sure about it. But you get my meaning.

10. Hojo spilling THAT bean: 95% agree with you. I understand why they did it. Kitase said that Sephiroth's build up as a character was inspired by Spielberg's Jaws: you feel there's a threat but you don't see it. Good idea, but hard to play again once every player and their grandma know who Sephiroth is. They had to consider a new way  to play plot points, along with the fact that it had to get interesting since the first part of the Remake compilation. Thus they went guns-out with foreshadowing. I get it. Along the interesting points of the game was Cloud's unreliable character, so they wanted to throw in a bit of that. I get it. But that line at that point in time was criminal. A very bad idea indeed.

11. Barret revived: unjustifiable.

12. Hojo and his "combat data": not a serious offense as others, but still pretty dumb. One or two lines of different dialogue would've removed the problem, really.

13. Jenova: 100% agree. Once again, I understand throwing Jenova in the mix earlier, but that execution is craptacular. Another thing which was easily solved with a few lines. There are four phases of Jenova's charaterization, at first you don't know at all what it is, second phase you think it's Sephiroth's human mother who was mutated by experiments, third you think is a Cetra of sorts, fourth you learn its true nature, much later, at Icicle Inn. Just go straight up to phase two and say it's Sephiroth's mother and there you have it, there's at least a cause for Jenova to be there. The fact they didn't need to do that proves how little they care for the comprehension by new players.

14. Chadley: ...whatever. What a dumb idea.

15. The bloodbath: here I do more than agree with you. Actually you made me remember how I felt as a kid and figure better why I was so disappointed. Shinra seemed unstoppable until that moment, and here comes in Sephiroth, making Shinra seem like powerless clerks in suit facing an ubermensch. Here Sephiroth is depicted by the n.1 threat since the beginning, devaluing the coup-de-theatre at its core.

16. chap18 isn't the only problem: here is where we most disagree. While other changes we can discuss of how good or bad they were, this is the one that poses the serious problem. I don't know if you've red my long list of plot points in the spoilerblock, but chap18 is where the damage gets serious. Because chap 18 isn't re-proposing or re-imagining the story themes for better or worse, it's straight-up contradicting them. There are a few way this could still get back on track (one of the most smartest is, the whole FF7R is actually happening during the "Cloud's Mind" section of the original game) or use the new plot points somewhat in service of the classic themes (there are a few youtuber theories on how that could work) but all in all it would still be needless contrivance, and that is still assuming optimistically that they DO recognize diverting from the original as a problematic choice, which I wouldn't be that sure. Chap18 is at an entirely different level of every other change, I'm convinced of it.
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] FF7 remake discussion time!
Post by: IlMomo86 on 2020-05-12 12:34:39
But but but didn't everyone see that 3 minutes. Seriously though the narrative changes aren't genuinely that bad,

Sure, you are right. The "Cap is a rapist" example was an hyperbole meant to show that just because 97% of a work is the same, it doesn't mean that 3% can't do any serious damage. Not every plot change is equivalent to another, that was my point.

so long as they build off it appropriately they could be amazing, as they stand however they are too open-ended for a definitive, it's a good narrative decision or not.

Actually there is a very long list of reasons to why it's very hard to cram into FF7 timelines, resurrections, fate and multiple Sephiroth's appearances without ruining the story. I've written one myself a few posts ago.  But let's assume you are correct, I still don't understand your logic.

FF7's plot was amazing. We all agree about that I think. Now you're telling me: well, they changed it, and as of now it could still play out as amazing, or end up being crap. We cannot know for sure.

Let's say I agree. Now, sidenote, my profession is head chef. If I have a recipe everyone loves, and I change it with a recipe that it could be as good as the original or utter crap, would you call in improvement? Would you order it at my restaurant, knowing that AT BEST it will be good as the original, at worst it will be crap? Wouldn't you ask yourself why I took such a risk, if I'm not even aiming to do better than the original?

The only logical answer would be, I know (read: think) that it will surely surpass the original. Wouldn't risk it otherwise. Which means that my basic goal is to subistitute the original with the new. Because I don't have that much high esteem for the original.

So in order to be a good change, it has to be:
1) it goes entirely on a different route and therefore it's amazing -------> implies the original wasn't that good
2) it goes "back on track" and plays as the original ------> implies the changes were bad
3) it keeps this route of being "mostly like the original" but with a disruptive subplot that yet somehow serves the original plot ----> a lot of effort for a mediocre result

So either one thinks the plot of FF7 is not all that much, or it's probably going to be at least slightly worse than the original.

which I have no reason to doubt post remake

Possibly. Since there's so much good stuff in this remake, it's hard to think they will entirely screw it all up. The following chapter will probably be another amazing game. There are at least three chapters though (Nomura said he wanted to do many) and this doesn't bode well. The fact that by the interviews Nomura and Kitase seem in disagree about how to prosecute the project makes me worried as well.
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] FF7 remake discussion time!
Post by: -Ric- on 2020-05-12 14:14:20
Let's say I agree. Now, sidenote, my profession is head chef. If I have a recipe everyone loves, and I change it with a recipe that it could be as good as the original or utter crap, would you call in improvement? Would you order it at my restaurant, knowing that AT BEST it will be good as the original, at worst it will be crap? Wouldn't you ask yourself why I took such a risk, if I'm not even aiming to do better than the original?

Let's never try to be innovative and try to do new and better because what we got already is good? I surely hope that's not what you're trying to say. Open a restaurant and keep the exact same menu and decor for a few years, without ever trying to create something new or change things around, and let us know how that goes for you.

Also, the plot of FF7 isn't amazing. It's a great game, but it's not even the best Final Fantasy game that is out. There's a lot about the plot that is complete nonsense. This is not towards you directly, or anyone in particular, just in general, but please stop acting as if the original game was perfect and any change to it is automatically negative.

I, for one, am happy that I'm actually not sure what part 2 will bring. It's actually exciting. Also, all criticisms of the ending of part 1, in my opinion, are unwarranted UNTIL we see where the ending leads. If your only reason to dislike the ending is because it's different from the original, that's totally ok. Just remember, different doesn't automatically make it bad, nor good. As of right now, it's a mystery. As I've said before, part 2 will either make the remake great or absolutely kill it.

We will see.

I prefer they take the risk and actually deliver something fresh, exciting and surprising to me than having made the exact same game with no plot changes. I don't need the same game, I already have it, I've already been playing it for over 20 years. Ps1, PC, Steam, Ps4, Nintendo Switch and even the shit Android version. I got them all and I've played them all, multiple times. The exact same plot with new graphics would mean fern all to me. Whenever I want to experience the original plot again, I'll just pick one of the many versions I own and done.
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] FF7 remake discussion time!
Post by: gjoerulv on 2020-05-12 15:50:29
Kefka pretty much nailed my thoughts on those scenes. I would sum it up with style over substance. The immediate scene is more important than consistency and logic. It's all over the place in main stream storytelling. Fuck the overall context, fuck believability, fuck consistency, fuck logic, as long as we get to show off how good of a character Aerith is, searching for those kids and stuff. Yeah.... Same in Barret's scene with the president. These examples are probably some of the worst, but they are spread out pretty much all over the game. Again, not that it didn't exist before, and I think this quote is a good example to highlight style over substance in both OG and R:

3: The Sector 7 plate drop. The battle at the pillar itself was actually fine and all, and it even featured a rare IMPROVEMENT over the original plot by showing Tseng and captured Aerith over a monitor rather than in a helicopter on site. That one always bugged me a little bit in the original, Tseng's chopper was still there when the bomb at the pillar exploded, and some of the debris actually got dangerously close, lol! So the approach from the remake with Tseng contacting them from a safe distance seems more reasonable indeed.

Does it make sense though? I agree it makes logistically sense (it didn't at all in the original). It makes sense if Tseng's reasoning for the broadcast is it to let Aerith communicate with the party about Marlene. Or if he has some sort of sadistic pleasure in letting them know they'll die. Or perhaps he thinks he can score with Aerith if she let her talk to her friends before he murders them?
I would say the 2 latter makes the """"most"""" sense. The problem, imo is, again, the art direction. Mustache twirling villainy like this is too juvenile and out of place here.
The original was also stupid, style over substance, about how Tseng lets Aerith talk to them, and how he was even there. And the helicopter part. Though, I guess they (Reno, Tseng) used that helicopter to escape in the original as well. Reno and Rude also escape by helicopter in the remake so there is that... Hard to see any other way to escape within the timeframe.

This part of the scene serves 3 purposes. To mention Marlene, to mention the ancient's and to know Aerith is captured. Caught that peeps? Please ignore how Barret just missed Rude with his gunarm while Rude runned in straight line away from him. All that action looked cool right?

Please don't tell me Tseng knew they would survive all along, and allowed Aerith to talk to them because he has a crush on her... This would be a perfect example of a writer retconning a scene when they notice they f****d up and there is no room to back peddle.

Also, if Shinra's security is this tight (fancy cameras and shit), why would Jessie use her father's card and put all of them in danger; her family, neighborhood, friends and Avalanche. Could it be because Cloud needs to go to her father's room and learn more about Jessie?  :o We needed that scene this much, huh?
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] FF7 remake discussion time!
Post by: The Black-caped Man on 2020-05-12 17:19:22
Quote
Kefka pretty much nailed my thoughts on those scenes.

In combination with what was said in this entire thread now, there is really not much to add. If ppl still like it, go ahead. But we don't for the reasons mentioned.
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] FF7 remake discussion time!
Post by: IlMomo86 on 2020-05-12 17:37:25
Let's never try to be innovative and try to do new and better because what we got already is good? I surely hope that's not what you're trying to say. Open a restaurant and keep the exact same menu and decor for a few years, without ever trying to create something new or change things around, and let us know how that goes for you.

Most restaurant in Italy keep the same menu actually. Incidentally, not me. I do a major overhaul of the recipes every week.

Innovation is good, that's why I appreciated most of the changes in FF7R.

Point is -I repeat over and over- not every change is equal to another. And if a change I decide for is contested, my answer won't be: "well, there's a chance that it doesn't suck". Change have to be improvement, not complication with the promise of a possible uncertain future improvement.

If I put tomato in a dessert (and I did) and serve it to you, and it ends up dissatisfactory, and you call me, my answer won't be: "Well yes could be crap, but there was a chance you'd like it". I have to change for the better, I'm paid for it.

Also, the plot of FF7 isn't amazing. It's a great game,

Amazing, or just good, doesn't really matter. It was good? Yes. Did you change it? Yes. Is it better? No. Is it more contrived? Yes. Did the plot need more contrivance? No. Therefore - it's worse, but you trust that it will turn out good in the future. Let's hope you are correct. At this point in time, it's just worse.



If your only reason to dislike the ending is because it's different from the original, that's totally ok.

You know, I've written a whole lot about changes I loved, and something like a long page of reasoning about why some changes were dreadful. The automated content of such replies make me wonder if you reply without bothering to read, or if you simply know that you couldn't object. This is getting robotic. All those who defend this craptacular chapter 18 can only repeat obsessively that changes isn't inherently bad, when absolutely no one is saying that changes are inherently bad but that THIS SPECIFIC change is, and we're making our points, which you pretend to ingnore. The game if packed full of changes, most of whom were straight-up awesome, so this "purist" allegation that you use as a get-out-of-jail card is becoming trite.
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] FF7 remake discussion time!
Post by: -Ric- on 2020-05-12 18:26:29
Amazing, or just good, doesn't really matter. It was good? Yes. Did you change it? Yes. Is it better? No.

Completely subjective.

Did the plot need more contrivance? No. Therefore - it's worse

Again, completely subjective.

You know, I've written a whole lot about changes I loved, and something like a long page of reasoning about why some changes were dreadful.

Which is all your opinion, and it's perfectly fine for you to have it. Stop trying to state it as a fact though.

This is getting robotic. All those who defend this craptacular chapter 18 can only repeat obsessively that changes isn't inherently bad, when absolutely no one is saying that changes are inherently bad but that THIS SPECIFIC change is.

Again, subjective... Get it in your head, bad to you doesn't mean bad to everyone else.

not complication with the promise of a possible uncertain future improvement.

There's at least one, very likely 2 unreleased games. Of course there is uncertainty about what's to come. lol. You, me or anyone else have no idea where the plot is heading. You're referring to the ending as "craptacular" when you have no idea what the goal of it is or where it leads to. It's incomplete. You know what, you might even be right. Part 2 might prove you absolutely right, might prove that the ending and direction they took is stupid. And if it is, I will agree with you. What I'm saying is, right now, May 13th, you have absolutely no idea if it was a good decision or not, if it's going to turn out to be good or not. You will find out when the rest of us do.

The game if packed full of changes, most of whom were straight-up awesome, so this "purist" allegation that you use as a get-out-of-jail card is becoming trite.

You are judging it entirely based on the fact that it's different than the original, yet you claim that it has nothing to do with purism. If you had never played the original and didn't know how the Midgar section of the original game ended, or the game's story in general, you'd most likely be excited for part 2 and to know what that ending meant and what's next, considering you loved a lot of other things about the remake. Don't claim it has nothing to do with "purism" because it absolutely does.

If I put tomato in a dessert (and I did) and serve it to you, and it ends up dissatisfactory, and you call me, my answer won't be: "Well yes could be crap, but there was a chance you'd like it". I have to change for the better, I'm paid for it.

If I didn't like the thought of tomato in a dessert, I would never order it to begin with. If I was aware tomato was an ingredient, still chose to order it and disliked it, I would not call you. I chose to order a tomato dessert, if I don't like it, my problem. I would simply never order it again. Your examples are quite ridiculous to be perfectly honest.

What this guy tried to say is absolutely correct.

People who act like their opinions are more than just opinions, I can't deal with.

There's absolutely no objectivity in anything you've said. You've started your opinion. Which surely a lot of people will agree with and surely a lot of people will disagree with. Since you like your food examples so much, entertainment media is similar to food in the sense that not everything is for everyone. Do you like strawberries? Cause I absolutely ferning hate them. Does that mean they're objectively bad?
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] FF7 remake discussion time!
Post by: IlMomo86 on 2020-05-12 19:52:04
Completely subjective.

I think you confound "objective" with "crystal clear undeniable 100% certain truth" which is something that doesn't exist in this world. I am saying is "objective" because we all agree with the premises, which bear the conclusion. Which makes it not my opinion.

Do you agree the plot was changed? Yes. Do you think the story was better for it? No, you think it "could" become "good" (not even better). These premises are accepted by both of us? Yes. Conclusion: at the point in time we are now, it wasn't an improvement, at best it will be in the future. This is "objective" insomuch as if you agree on the premises, you should agree on the conclusion. It's called logic.

Of course demonstrating that "it's not better" is different from demonstrating that "it's worse". A different matter altogether. Also logic.


Again, completely subjective.

Then you disagree on the premise that FF7 didn't need more contrivance?

Which is all your opinion, and it's perfectly fine for you to have it. Stop trying to state it as a fact though.

Again, an opinion is a reasoning. It's not sacred just because it is an opinion, otherwise people would and could communicate just crude facts.

Example of an opinion that I stated and that no one of you bother contradicting:
-premise A: FF7 as a good protagonist
-follow up to A: the protagonist is good because (among other reasons) he's ill-equipped to deal with the obstacles he faces, AKA he's not a "chosen" protagonist
-premise B: the concept of fate means someone is destined to succeed, thus functionally well-equipped to overcome
-conclusion: introducing FATE diminishes the protagonist's impact

This is "objective" in the meaning that the connection is logical and verifiable. The fact that it's objective doesn't mean that it is a religious dogma though. For instance you could object that Cloud is not a good protagonist, or that he works fine as a chosen one, etcetera.

That IS discussion. "I like it" "I dislike it" is stating TASTES. Tastes cannot be disputed. Opinions can.

If you had never played the original and didn't know how the Midgar section of the original game ended, or the game's story in general, you'd most likely be excited for part 2 and to know what that ending meant and what's next, considering you loved a lot of other things about the remake. Don't claim it has nothing to do with "purism" because it absolutely does.

You're completely wrong. If I hadn't played the original I would not have high hopes for the plot, albeit graphics, gameplay and soundtracks are still good. I do look forward to it just because I know and trust the original material. A goodbye sequence as emotional as Biggs', following with the "hooo, he survived!" reveal, is a dead giveaway of low quality. Since I think that most of the changes will be for the best, I'm still intentioned to buy the next. It's pretty self-evident that I am anything but a purist, it's just that you don't know any better objection than this one.

If I didn't like the thought of tomato in a dessert, I would never order it to begin with. If I was aware tomato was an ingredient, still chose to order it and disliked it, I would not call you. I chose to order a tomato dessert, if I don't like it, my problem. I would simply never order it again. Your examples are quite ridiculous to be perfectly honest.

By this reasoning I can put disgusting food on my menu, it's your fault for ordering. Try running a restaurant like that, see for yourself. If I decide to innovate and risk it, I have to make it worth the while.

Do you like strawberries? Cause I absolutely ferning hate them. Does that mean they're objectively bad?

See, that's the problem. You cannot tell the difference between tastes and opinions.
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] FF7 remake discussion time!
Post by: -Ric- on 2020-05-12 20:40:16
Do you agree the plot was changed? Yes. Do you think the story was better for it? No, you think it "could" become "good" (not even better).

When did I say that I do not agree that it's better? I do believe that the part one of the remake is way better than the original game's Midgar section. I just said above, I don't want the same plot. I don't need the same plot. I know the original plot and I have it available to me, whenever I want, on pretty much every device I own. I wanted something with changes, something with differences, something NEW to look forward to and I got all that. Hell, I would even prefer a certain level of disappointment with some scenes than just being "eh it's all the same".

And this is MY opinion. It's not a fact and it's 100% subjective.

Then you disagree on the premise that FF7 didn't need more contrivance?

Your question is irrelevant. My opinion would be just as subjective as yours. That's my point entirely.

That IS discussion. "I like it" "I dislike it" is stating TASTES. Tastes cannot be disputed. Opinions can.

And again you missed the point. You can like or dislike whatever you want... Your taste can be whatever it is, your opinion can be whatever you want it to. Simply stop stating it as a fact.

You're completely wrong. If I hadn't played the original I would not have high hopes for the plot, albeit graphics, gameplay and soundtracks are still good. I do look forward to it just because I know and trust the original material.

You start that paragraph by saying I'm wrong about your opinion being based on the original game, and then proceed to write that if you had not played the original, you would not have high hopes for the plot, followed by that you look forward to it because you know and trust the original material.

Dude...

By this reasoning I can put disgusting food on my menu, it's your fault for ordering. Try running a restaurant like that, see for yourself. If I decide to innovate and risk it, I have to make it worth the while.

You can put whatever you want on any menu you want. It's the beauty of capitalism. Again you missed the entire point and came up with a dumb example.
If your restaurant's menu consisted of food I considered disgusting, we would never even get to that dessert stage. However, every transaction I make IS a conscious one. I will not blame a restaurant for selling me a product that contains an ingredient I don't like, when I knew it contained said ingredient and still chose to purchase it. It would be 100% my problem. I have no idea why the food topic is even still a thing.

See, that's the problem. You cannot tell the difference between tastes and opinions.

...Nah. I'm out.
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] FF7 remake discussion time!
Post by: IlMomo86 on 2020-05-12 22:27:49
Your question is irrelevant. My opinion would be just as subjective as yours. That's my point entirely.

You have a bad relationship with logic I see. Sure, your opinion would be subjective (as long as it isn't backed by a reasoning) but it wouldn't matter. "Objective" is not "Gospel". "Objective" is a statement all parties in a discussion agree about and "objective" are the conclusions stemming from that statement if logically connected.

If you agree that: FF7 didn't need more contrivance (premA) and the addition add more contrivance (premB) then you recognize that the addions are a problem (conclusion). It's not that the two premises are biblical truth, it's just the connection that is logic and sound, assuming we all accept the premises.

A correct objection would be: I love even more contrived plots, so I don't agree with you at all. <---------- that would be objective, as THERE IS A LOGIC CONNECTION and I couldn't deny it. It doesn't matter at all if YOU like contrivance and I don't, or if YOU like contrivance and the whole rest of humanity doesn't, your reasoning would still be valid. It's the connection that  makes it valid.

And again you missed the point. You can like or dislike whatever you want... Your taste can be whatever it is, your opinion can be whatever you want it to. Simply stop stating it as a fact.

Surely this will serve you well when you'll be discussing more serious issues. "My opinion is, beating my wife and kids is just fine. I'm not forcing you into my opinion am I? My opinion is as valid as yours".

You start that paragraph by saying I'm wrong about your opinion being based on the original game, and then proceed to write that if you had not played the original, you would not have high hopes for the plot, followed by that you look forward to it because you know and trust the original material.

Dude...

Your point: Purist! You dislike it because you wanted it to be all the same!
My point: no, there are a lot of things  that where different which I loved; but not the ending
*disregard all the things I loved*
Your point: Purist! The ending sounds bad to you just because it's different
My point: no, I can go in detail about why it was bad, and it isn't because it's different
*disregards all my points*
Your point: Purist! if ya hadn't played the original game, ya'd be loving this one and waiting for the next
My point: on the contrary, I wait for the next exactly because I know the original source and I can discern that to some extend it will follow it, because chap18 in itself is lackluster
Your point: ....dude

Yeah, huh, sure... "dude". Good point there. Hard hitting.



However, every transaction I make IS a conscious one.

Given the desperate level of fanboyism you're showing, I highly doubt it.

I am making food examples to show how hard you're trying to make excuses for someone who marketed their product as something different, crammed an extraneous plot device after assuring everyone for months that they wouldn't do exactly that, and risked it all leaving ultimately a bad aftertaste  in many of us.

And we don't even HATE them, or even the game. We're merely saying that SOME changes were in bad taste. Which is more than you could handle or accept. It's hard to spend money on something and accept that it had a flaw, I know, you think it makes you look like a fool.

 
...Nah. I'm out.

I sympathize with your inability to follow.

Thus far it makes two of you who are dramatically unable to follow a discussion. Makes me wonder.
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] FF7 remake discussion time!
Post by: -Ric- on 2020-05-12 22:53:35
It has nothing to do with following a discussion. You keep contradicting yourself, putting words in my mouth and coming back with fallacious arguments and examples that are just plain silly.

Surely this will serve you well when you'll be discussing more serious issues. "My opinion is, beating my wife and kids is just fine. I'm not forcing you into my opinion am I? My opinion is as valid as yours".

What a stupid, disingenuous example. But I'll entertain it. Yes, it's actually OKAY to have that opinion.

I personally do not care if you do. Wanna know what I care about? The fact that at least in most civilized places, there are laws in place to deal with people  that act on such opinions. I give no shits if you think it's ok to beat someone up, rob a bank or commit mass murder, as long as you're unable to do any of it or get promptly punished if you somehow manage to.

Your point: Purist! You dislike it because you wanted it to be all the same!
My point: no, there are a lot of things  that where different which I loved; but not the ending
*disregard all the things I loved*
Your point: Purist! The ending sounds bad to you just because it's different
My point: no, I can go in detail about why it was bad, and it isn't because it's different
*disregards all my points*
Your point: Purist! if ya hadn't played the original game, ya'd be loving this one and waiting for the next
My point: on the contrary, I wait for the next exactly because I know the original source and I can discern that to some extend it will follow it, because chap18 in itself is lackluster
Your point: ....dude

Yeah, huh, sure... "dude". Good point there. Hard hitting.

Again you misinterpret what I said. I've given you the benefit of the doubt but at this point, it's obvious that it's on purpose.
Let's break it down:

Your point: Purist! You dislike it because you wanted it to be all the same! <- Never said that.
Your point: Purist! The ending sounds bad to you just because it's different <- Never said that
Your point: Purist! if ya hadn't played the original game, ya'd be loving this one and waiting for the next <- Completely misinterpreted. I never flat out said you'd be loving the ending. I don't know if you would or not nor do I care. I said, and I quote:

Quote
If you had never played the original and didn't know how the Midgar section of the original game ended, or the game's story in general, you'd most likely be excited for part 2 and to know what that ending meant and what's next, considering you loved a lot of other things about the remake. Don't claim it has nothing to do with "purism" because it absolutely does.

Read it again. If you had never played the original, that you would MOST LIKELY be excited for part 2 and to know what the ending of part one was all about. Then proceeded to point out that my reason for believing that you would MOST LIKELY be excited for it is the fact you've claimed to have loved many other things about the remake.
Then told you to stop claiming that your comments have NOTHING TO DO WITH PURISM since you keep referring back to the original game for comparisons.

To which you gloriously replied, and I quote

Quote
You're completely wrong. If I hadn't played the original I would not have high hopes for the plot, albeit graphics, gameplay and soundtracks are still good. I do look forward to it just because I know and trust the original material.

Right there you admit that having played the original IS a factor in both your current experience and future release expectations.

And we don't even HATE them, or even the game. We're merely saying that SOME changes were in bad taste. Which is more than you could handle or accept. It's hard to spend money on something and accept that it had a flaw, I know, you think it makes you look like a fool.

Again, another complete misinterpretation of what I said. I will again quote myself directly.

Which is all your opinion, and it's perfectly fine for you to have it. Stop trying to state it as a fact though.

Nowhere did I "fail" to handle your or accept anything you said. I straight up told you that I'm absolutely fine with your opinion. But that it is all that it is. An opinion.

Thus far it makes two of you who are dramatically unable to follow a discussion. Makes me wonder.

I know it does make you wonder. Which is why I'm out. I won't entertain your misinterpretations, dumb examples, and fallacious arguments any further. I will end it the way I started. Your opinion is just that, an opinion.
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] FF7 remake discussion time!
Post by: Kefka on 2020-05-13 11:09:31
@IlMomo86:

Alright, here's my 2 cents on some of your points. I've left the other points which we agree upon out since there won't be much more to say about them anyway.

1. Shinra/Domino: disagree. You see, what irked me since the beginning in the original game was that this superpowerful company had nothing so simple as a cam surveillance in its reactors and some modicum of (real) security in their HQ building, all of whom would've made Avalanche striking two important blows at Shinra impossible. The remake worked hard to make it believable, painting Avalanche as a more structured organization, Shinra as willing to play a charade, Wutai being (used as) a (perceived) threat and Domino as a double-agent rather than simply a moron. Granted it could've been executed better, but I appreciate the direction.

I see what you mean, I have been thinking that maybe part of the reason for the different approach in both games also stems from changes in the real world during the last 2 decades: Mass surveillance via cameras at every street corner wasn't around in 1997, it only started to gradually become a thing after 9/11. The 90's were that peaceful time between the Cold War and the new age of global terrorism, so there was no need for mass surveillance back then, which is perhaps why the developers of the original neglected it. Today we have it in every major city, so the developers probably wanted to include that in a modern version of the game as well so that the game's level of technological progress would still look futuristic. The original game did look futuristic for 1997 standards even without mass camera surveillance, but I guess it wouldn't look like that anymore today when even we have cameras everywhere in the real world.

But then again, wouldn't a camera network in the Shinra headquarters make Mayor Domino's work for Avalanche even more difficult, or impossible? It's not that I'm against expanding his character in general, I just found the location he uses as a base for his Avalanche support to be somewhat ridiculous.

On a funny side note, the original DID have a camera surveillance system in the headquarters (you see it in a brief FMV when first riding the elevator to the 60th floor), but the dude responsible for watching the monitors was just sleeping on his job, lol! ;D

2. Terror strategy: disagree 95%; on a personal sidenote, I am italian. It has happened in the history of our country that intelligence-service and corrupted politician allowed their own citizens to be bombed, painting others as the culprit. And sadly, it also happened and was recorded, of managers to celebrate when an earthquake or similar destroyed whole cities, as they were worried that too little space was left for builders to profit. Two popular strategies are at play, "unite people with terror" and "if there's no demand, someone has to create it". It's not such a long stretch of imagination that an evil huge company who is willing to build its third megalopolis (after Midgar itself and Junon) would pull off such a trick. Fantasy -yes- but not that unbelievable. Bombing reactors is a very good way also to slow down the mako exhaustion and paint Midgar as an obsolete model to be replaced with the improved Neo-Midgar. Of course all of this holds together if Wutai is still depicted as a surrendered and inoffensive nation, as in the original, because if it will be portrayed as a serious force to be reckoned then bombing two reactors is a lot less credible. So I 5% agree.

I agree that uniting people with terror might be a viable strategy for Shinra, but I also think they could've achieved that without blowing such a huge whole into their own wallet. We're never given exact numbers as to how rich Shinra really is or how long the reactors have been around, but Cid mentions that they discovered Mako energy sometime after the failed rocket launch. We don't know how many years ago the launch was, but Cid was already an adult back then and he's now 32, so the reactors must've accumulated Shinra's enormous wealth over a very short time frame (a decade perhaps). From this I conclude that each reactor must be worth an unimaginable fortune, one that an intelligent company wouldn't sacrifice so easily. Even if Shinra managed to kill all of Avalanche in such a reactor explosion, they still couldn't consider that a victory, as the financial damage to themselves would likely outweigh the strategic gains.

Especially since their problems would likely not end after Avalanche's destruction: history has shown us repeatedly that wherever there is an oppressive regime, resistance movements against them will form eventually, some of them going as far as engaging in a military conflict with the regime. So after getting rid of Avalanche completely, it would only be a matter of time until the next Anti-Shinra-group emerges. (The original even hinted at the existence of other rebel groups by implying that such a group sabotaged the Corel reactor, so the possibility of a repetition is there.) I doubt that the company could continue the reactor-blowing strategy every time such a group hits the scene, even with the Neo-Midgar plan as a backup.

Neo-Midgar is probably still a long way off, considering that it relies on them first finding the promised land (and at the time of the bombings they didn't even have Aerith yet), and building such a gigantic metropolis would surely take some time as well, possibly decades. Hojo's research on the Ancient would probably also be a factor on their time table (although the 120 years stated in the original were probably too much, lol). Therefore nuking the reactors seems risky to me considering that the availability of Neo-Midgar is not yet certain.

Their Wutai-plan will depend on what the developers decide to do with Wutai in general, but I imagine there'll be some changes as well. In the original Godo says at the Pagoda that Wutai had lost the war, but in the remake (I don't remember the exact moment, help me please) it was stated somewhere that they only have an armistice, and that fighting could break out again if tensions should rise. One can only speculate where this will go.

3. Good Vs Evil: actually, disagree. The Shinra does the bombing, correct, but the group knows not, yet it doesn't stop anyone except Tifa from being willing to bomb again. Tifa suggests later that turning lightpower off will hurt the people of the slums, Barret rebuffs, Tifa complies. And since the damage done is a more stressed point, I'd say the only one who got a character expansion in this case is Tifa, and the group is still painted somewhat negatively, not to mention Cloud being a lot more merciless. Shinra on the other hand is expanded as well, with people being more clearly on Shinra's side than before, Cloud outright stating that Mako did indeed improve the life of many, and pres.Shinra speaking for his case twice, all provide some added layers.


The group doesn't know it, but the PLAYER knows it. My point here was that the original game had ethics and morality as one of its core themes by urging the player to think about Avalanche's actions and – since the player is the one controlling Avalanche – even scrutinizing their own role in the game. By making it clear to the player that Avalanche is not responsible for civilian deaths in the city due to Shinra causing the larger explosion, they removed the need for the player to question his party's actions. Avalanche is still in a moral gray area, but they're no longer murderers themselves, presenting them as more innocent to the audience. The theme of ethics and morality may still be present in the overall game, but not to the same degree anymore, imho.

4. Pres.Shinra: agree and disagree ... pres.Shinra is actually handled better, as a character. In the first time he makes the point that his actions are still supported by many consumers. And in the second occasion he says that without Shinra's man-power nobody could help anyone. Instead of being just a snobbish bastard, he makes a few good points. Granted though, the second chance he gets to throw his speech is quite an ill-written scene overall.

The President's first speech at the reactor sounded more sophisticated, I agree. And yeah, his death scene was the writers' fault.

7. Bad pacing: agree and disagree. The train graveyard and the underplate were added dungeons for sure, but at least they were expansion of interesting concepts in the original. Unlike the deepground lab, to mention one. And since Tifa and Cloud don't actually believe Corneo much, it is somewhat justified that they aren't in a hurry until they see the shinracopters going toward the pillar. A couple of times it gets trite, I agree with this. The "Drum" is a good idea (later on this) and the Deepground and second Sewers are atrocious.

Agreed on the interesting concepts, I actually love the train graveyard and would've wished that it was longer in the original game (looked so cool!). I would often spend my time there farming Ethers from Deenglows and Striking Staffs from Eligors for sale later on. The longer dungeon itself didn't bug me, it was only the characters' slow and time-wasting behavior during the cutscenes there. Even if they doubt Corneo, as long as even a small possibility remains that he said the truth they probably shouldn't risk being too late.

Oh yeah, thanks for reminding me about the Deepground lab, 100% agree with you there. There wasn't any reason to even go there other than rescuing Wedge, who should not have survived in the first place.

8. Falling plate: it stands to reason that, even in the original, not just everyone in the slums died, since some were thinking about running away. It also stays true in the remake that hundreds of people died still. Showing the most important characters in the slums (Betty, Marle, Wymer) all alive and well, though, is admittedly too much mercy on the audience.

True, we never get exact numbers about the death tolls in either game, so some of it is left up to imagination. Since the original never mentions any survivors (doesn't mean that there weren't) and the remake shows you a lot of them, my assumption is that in the original the majority died, while in the remake the majority survived.

9. Biggs, Wedge and Jessie (yes, she too: notice the gloves in the desk beside Biggs) alive in the ending. This I consider to be the most serious offense. The events of their deaths were written and executed brilliantly, and preceded by due character developement to give them more impact. And bam, they bring it to this childish, unimaginative and dull conclusion. Everyone lives, whoooo-hooooo. Dunno if it was the Whispers' defeat or not, I don't care. How can you build everything up to such a beautiful goodbye sequence and then ruin it like this. I am shocked really, I think this is the worst of all the remake. Worse than Zack, and hinting at a very negative direction they could be taking this. I was speechless at such a waste of good narrative. Not going to go the route "I bet Kitase wrote the deaths and Nomura wrote their return" because I cannot be 100% sure about it. But you get my meaning.

Wow, I didn't notice that at first, thanks! I had to watch some scenes again to verify that they do indeed look like Jesse's gloves. So if every single Avalanche member from Barret's group survived, it makes the entire plate drop feel even more meaningless. Wholeheartedly agree.

10. Hojo spilling THAT bean: 95% agree with you. I understand why they did it. Kitase said that Sephiroth's build up as a character was inspired by Spielberg's Jaws: you feel there's a threat but you don't see it. Good idea, but hard to play again once every player and their grandma know who Sephiroth is. They had to consider a new way  to play plot points, along with the fact that it had to get interesting since the first part of the Remake compilation. Thus they went guns-out with foreshadowing. I get it. Along the interesting points of the game was Cloud's unreliable character, so they wanted to throw in a bit of that. I get it. But that line at that point in time was criminal. A very bad idea indeed.

13. Jenova: 100% agree. Once again, I understand throwing Jenova in the mix earlier, but that execution is craptacular. Another thing which was easily solved with a few lines. There are four phases of Jenova's charaterization, at first you don't know at all what it is, second phase you think it's Sephiroth's human mother who was mutated by experiments, third you think is a Cetra of sorts, fourth you learn its true nature, much later, at Icicle Inn. Just go straight up to phase two and say it's Sephiroth's mother and there you have it, there's at least a cause for Jenova to be there. The fact they didn't need to do that proves how little they care for the comprehension by new players.

Hojo's line and Jenova: Yeah I get it too why they did both. I think their decision to make the first game Midgar-only was already a mistake, as that seemingly created more problems than it solved. They wanted to include important stuff from the FF7 story, but Midgar was simply too early for some of that. Had they decided to make Part 1 longer (cargo ship at least), they would've had more room for those story elements and could've avoided many narrative problems. And in Hojo's case, I'm sure Nomura just wanted another opportunity to show off his beloved fate-ghosts, lol. ;D

16. chap18 isn't the only problem: here is where we most disagree. While other changes we can discuss of how good or bad they were, this is the one that poses the serious problem. I don't know if you've red my long list of plot points in the spoilerblock, but chap18 is where the damage gets serious. Because chap 18 isn't re-proposing or re-imagining the story themes for better or worse, it's straight-up contradicting them. There are a few way this could still get back on track (one of the most smartest is, the whole FF7R is actually happening during the "Cloud's Mind" section of the original game) or use the new plot points somewhat in service of the classic themes (there are a few youtuber theories on how that could work) but all in all it would still be needless contrivance, and that is still assuming optimistically that they DO recognize diverting from the original as a problematic choice, which I wouldn't be that sure. Chap18 is at an entirely different level of every other change, I'm convinced of it.

Actually we DO agree on this one! I too think that the whole whisper-fate-time-travel-nonsense was the worst crime to the story. I merely wanted to bring up some points from other chapters as well because everybody on the internet seems to be talking primarily about chapter 18 when judging the story's writing. I did read your analysis on the game's themes (original and remake), and found it very reasonable. Chapter 18 is the most serious problem indeed, just not the ONLY one, that's all I wanted to say.
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] FF7 remake discussion time!
Post by: IlMomo86 on 2020-05-13 11:23:35
@Ric



Spoiler: show



What a stupid, disingenuous example. But I'll entertain it. Yes, it's actually OKAY to have that opinion.

I personally do not care if you do. Wanna know what I care about? The fact that at least in most civilized places, there are laws in place to deal with people  that act on such opinions. I give no shits if you think it's ok to beat someone up, rob a bank or commit mass murder, as long as you're unable to do any of it or get promptly punished if you somehow manage to.

Sure, in your ideal world every opinion is equal to every other, so it's OKAY to have that opinion. The only important thing is that when you act on that opinion you'll be punished after the damage is done. Indeed, if all opinions are equal and all discussions are void, what's the point of having values, ethics, preferences, education? None at all. 

Indeed it would rise the problem of what exactly labels acting on a OKAY opinion a WRONG conduct, since we cannot at all discuss about an opinion being worse than another, and how can you ever hope to educate, say, a kid that having that opinion is bad, or determine by law that a conduct isn't good; but actually in your book it's pointless, the important thing is that when the kid grows up and beats his own kid, police will come and punish him for acting on its OKAY opinion.
 
This may sound off topic but it shows just how ridicolous and socially disruptive would be your golden principle that opinions hold some sort of sacred validity just by virtue of being opinions.

Again you misinterpret what I said. I've given you the benefit of the doubt but at this point, it's obvious that it's on purpose.
Let's break it down:

Your point: Purist! You dislike it because you wanted it to be all the same! <- Never said that.
Your point: Purist! The ending sounds bad to you just because it's different <- Never said that
Your point: Purist! if ya hadn't played the original game, ya'd be loving this one and waiting for the next <- Completely misinterpreted.

When someone disowns his own statements you know that there's a problem.
please stop acting as if the original game was perfect and any change to it is automatically negative.
If your only reason to dislike the ending is because it's different from the original, that's totally ok.
Don't claim it has nothing to do with "purism" because it absolutely does.

Yeah, I didn’t quote you word-for-word, but those were your points still.



Then told you to stop claiming that your comments have NOTHING TO DO WITH PURISM since you keep referring back to the original game for comparisons.

Of course we are doing comparisons. Never denied it. Purism would be saying that every change is bad per se, which would entail that I hate everything that has changed. I don't. So just drop it.

Right there you admit that having played the original IS a factor in both your current experience and future release expectations.

Of course it is a factor. Never denied that, as well. Point being, you said it is a NEGATIVE factor and that I don't look with excitement at the next installment only because of my alleged purism. I said that you're wrong twice, first off I AM waiting for the next one with excitement, and second the fact that I loved the original is a factor, YES, but a factor that makes me excited. The contrary of whay you said.

Bottom line is: I dislike the ending not because it's different from the original, not because I hate the devs, not because I don't understand it, not because the game sucked but because THAT ENDING IS BAD NARRATIVE. Which is a very simple point that I invested perhaps even too much time exploring, with concepts and reasonings that not once you bothered to contradict and probably didn't even read.


I know it does make you wonder. Which is why I'm out. I won't entertain your misinterpretations, dumb examples, and fallacious arguments any further. I will end it the way I started. Your opinion is just that, an opinion.

Sure. You can quit the discussion anytime you like. Stop doing you will and prosecute the discussion, then. Talk about contradictions.

But you know what? I'll make you a favor. Despite the fact that the one who keeps stating he wants to cut off is you, I will. I will ignore your next reply whatever you write on it. That way you can be at peace.

Not that you bother reading people analysis or opinions (which makes sense, since in your vision opinions shouldn't be confronted at all) but you may notice that Kefka made a very long post of his impressions, some of whom I don't agree with -being on the pro-Remake side of the fence, mostly- but we can discuss in a civilized and logical way about it. And no, "logical" doesn't equal to "agree with me". That's what I enjoy doing, in a thread about DISCUSSING the remake. Not dealing with what is basically an idle repetition of the same three moot points: you're a purist, you're arrogant, my opinion is mine only.

tldr
So there, I concede. I drop my hat to you. Kudos.
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] FF7 remake discussion time!
Post by: IlMomo86 on 2020-05-13 12:48:47
@Kefka

1. Domino and Shinra:
I agree that Domino's execution wasn't 100% believable, but I still think it's an improvement to saying that three guys simply BUSTED in Shinra HQ. I recall the scene with the sleepy camera guard and I had a bit of suspension-of-suspension-of-disbelief there. When Rude catches the team in the elevator I remember thinking: oh, OK,  we ARE getting caught! When a 11yrs old finds a segment hardly believable, something is wrong. Granted, they saved the narration by the fact that you DO get caught in the end, and it's only Seph intervention that turns the tables, whereas Sephiroth's impact in the Remake is less important.

2. The wreck-Midgar/blame Wutai/start Neomidgar plan.
Again, I agree the execution is debatable (and relies much on what Wutai will actually be) but to be fair, it was debatable in the original as well. While there were fans who suspected that the first reactor bombing had something fishy (as Jessie mentions that the explosion was off charts) the second bombing was willingly allowed by Shinra, and the platefall was still their plan. It was also clear in the original that Shinra is somewhat obsessed with the Promised Land way more than the actual feasibility of the plan, somewhat leaving up to debate if the reason was the quick exhaustion of Mako, the pres.Shinra megalomania, or a combination of both. In the Remake, at least, Hojo admits being "using" Shinra and their obsession, which means that at least one among them is aware that the plan is bull. So yeah, overall not that much credible, but a mild improvement I'd say.

3. Moral grey area:
Agreed, they're more on the righteous side, but on the Remake's credit people are more aligned with Shinra in general, and the moral question gets more discussion time.

4. pres.Shinra:
Yeah, a very good speech, which ties into the prophetic tropes of the original game. Back then it was a bit of an hyperbole, nowadays people willingly trading the planet's lifespan for comfort sounds much more fitting.

5. well a whole district DID fall, so the casualties are still pretty high. Though Corneo DOES mention that they were much less than intended.

6. Actually they could solve a lot of problems (including their desperate need to show off and make you fight mr.Sephiroth since part1 and painting some of the themes) with a much simpler choice, ending it at the Nibelheim flashback. I think they scratched the idea because... well because...

7.
Biggs: "Not fond of kids?"
Cloud: "No..."
*caresses Cloud's head*
Biggs: "But you have... so much in common"
Me: God what an amazing scene.
*district falls on Biggs' head*
Me: "way better writing there, guys"
Ending: "Hey, Biggs has a headbump now".
Me "..."
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] FF7 remake discussion time!
Post by: The Black-caped Man on 2020-05-13 13:30:39
I'd just like to note that the discussion between IlMomo86 and Kefka is the first and only constructive pro/con debate about the remake in this thread so far and I'm quite enjoying following it. Other ppl could learn a lot here about how to try to defend parts of the remake that differ from the original properly;) I agree with you both on certain things, maybe I'll add my own list of questionable decisions(no repetitions of what was said ofc) later.
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] FF7 remake discussion time!
Post by: gjoerulv on 2020-05-13 13:50:42
7.
Biggs: "Not fond of kids?"
Cloud: "No..."
*caresses Cloud's head*
Biggs: "But you have... so much in common"
Me: God what an amazing scene.

Nothing wrong with that scene (or that part of the scene rather) purely on its own. In fact, on its own it's very good. When put in context however, it cracks. Again, the immediate scene/moment is the most important thing here for SE, which, to me at least, breaks the immersion (as if it weren't broken a dozen times before in this scene alone lol). When you're in an extreme hurry like this, to prevent a colossal disaster, even when your best friends lies dying, would you really have time for a "last moment speech". Welp, at least any emotionally stable person wouldn't have, but the script makes everyone into emotional idiots because... Muh characters! Muh scene!
In the original, I distinctively remember -the first time I played- that I didn't even talk to Biggs and Jessie because 1: There are things that are way more important now; time is ticking fast. And 2: Maybe they will survive if we can stop the plate from falling; I don't know how badly they are hurt.
To my defense: I was 15 and didn't take the gameplay hints that I actually had as much time as I wanted. Talking to them was out of the question. I think most of you would agree that the tone in this scene is very serious, with a huge emphasis on urgency. And as far as the player knows, you are the only ones with enough fighting skills to actually stop this. Someone else is probably much more suited to look after Biggs and Jessie.

SE, if you are to flesh things out, please have it make sense. Please consider consistency and context. Sure, the whole Domino part has been """fleshed out""", but it doesn't make sense. Actually, as pointed out already, it's made even more ridiculous now. It was wanky enough to begin with; the addition here broke it imo. Even if an insider makes the infiltration more plausible, have it make sense. If you can't make it believable, do not include it. It seems one of the main reasoning here is to make Domino into a good guy, more likable, muh characters(!). If that's the tipping point of your reasoning SE, I'm sorry, that sucks. People will buy it, sure, but it still sucks.
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] FF7 remake discussion time!
Post by: Izban on 2020-05-14 06:23:51
But but but video game logic if there is no timer you have forever to flounder about...

Domino was a forgettable character, his total reason for being is making it more believable to break into shinra hq, which is really out of the scope of figure head mayor boys expected skillset movies make realtime looping of video seem easy but there is a fair bit of technical know-how involved, and a Polly has no chance of being technically minded enough to pull it off seemlessly. Plus he is a whiny self-centred twat waffle.

The stealing of Jessie's dads keycard definitely makes sense if you look at shinra as a corporation seeing people as numbers makes it fairly easy to walk in and out of places so long as you have the right swipe cards... See wearing gear and carrying a ladder, most places will just swipe you in and the places that don't get you to sign in with licences logged so yeah that bit works in real life, this I can share as have actual experience in such things

People surviving as a whole isn't a huge change plot wise cause until you we head back to midgar there is a very good chance nothing changes, Zack is the only exception to this cause he is a pivotal character who kinda set ff7s story ball rolling, him surviving gives a couple of potential time rift problems or gets ignored completely, but until I see how it's handled I can give more then "Zacks alive that's kinda dope" reaction.

I sure as hell enjoy the cult type vibe that shinra as a whole exudes see the business man on the train scene for what I'm talking about, I also like the fact that the is subfactions within shinra see how hojo doesn't let the Turks or public safety know about the infiltration, or even. The Rufus being the founder of avalanche, depend on how they progress the factions we could end up with so really interesting dynamics.

Overall remake is like reading the first book in a saga, spent way more time getting us familiar with the characters then progressing the story, hears hoping part 2 is an SW-esb addition to the story
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] FF7 remake discussion time!
Post by: IlMomo86 on 2020-05-14 13:27:29
@gjoerulv:

1. Biggs&co deaths:
Yeah, I agree, or rather, that was my entire point. Building up so well characters and scaling up to such a perfect goodbye scene, then screwing it all up just because hey, kids shouldn't know that a cool and lovable person can die. What a waste damn.

2. Mr.Rasberry's personnel keycard:
Agreed, but I don't find it such a serious offense. Sure I expected them to come off with some explicative line such as "Yeah, these keycards are anonymous" or "I need to hack this keycard" because I had your very same qualms. That said, it's not all that relevant I don't think that it makes the whole Jessie's subplot stupid. Still pretty goofy oversight, and would've been so easy to fix too.

3. Goodbye speeches:
Disagree. I understand where you come from, mind you, but truth is, if you're in a dangerous situation and find a friend or comrade lying on the floor, you'd stop by. It's not that you know beforehand that they're going to spend their "goodbye speech time". Either to assess his/her dead status, help him/her get back, assist his/her final moments, or whatever may be the case. Unless you're facing an immediate and frontal threat and therefore cannot come near him/her, you would stop. People usually do, even in war situations. Of course is more efficient to just move out and get back to a safe zone, but the istinct is to assist the injured unless you're a trained coldhearted hitman. Which Cloud claims to be (but isn't) and Tifa absolutely isn't. It feels a tadbit forced, but again, not that serious. In comparison with the fact that those goodbye speeches were for naught, moreso, it's really not an issue.

4. Domino:
Hard call. You see, first off Domino isn't a good guy at all. In both games his whole point is that Shinra Inc has made politician representatives like him obsolete and thus the situation doesn't cater to his ego. In both games he assists Avalanche. In both games he somehow does so under the nose of Shinra Inc without getting caught.
That said:

- In the Original, he does out of a complete whim without any worry for his own safety or convenience while in the Remake, because he is a long-time inside agent of a dubiously aligned and suspiciously well-endowed organization;

- In the Original he is the only lone soul caring that Shinra Inc has essentially erased any other form of upper class
and his assistant somehow doesn't bat an eyelid being involved in a sabotage, while in the Remake he is implied to have is own like-minded followers among whom the assistant, and one follower points out that they're risking much.

- In the Original they bust in because Shinra Inc security staff has no internal communication, doesn't give a f*** about security systems in their emergency stairs and doesn't bother paying a single guard who actually looks the monitors, while in the Remake they manage because Domino purposedly covers their tracks, hijacks communications between security guards and has his own alignment.

- In the original, security cards are just thrown in Cloud, Barret and Tifa's faces by complete strangers if they just bother posing as maintenance (yuk, seems legit!) while in the Remake it was a combination of Domino, Hojo and Seph that made it possibile, without all that sillyness, and their menacing appearance is even addressed by employees here and there and justified by them passing as security SOLDIER operatives.

Now, you can tell me Domino is not that credible of a character and you'd be correct, but it's out of discussion that the Remake performs better in terms of credibilty in the whole infiltration ops. So yeah, not exactly genius writing, but an improvement still.
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] FF7 remake discussion time!
Post by: gjoerulv on 2020-05-14 17:26:17
2. Mr.Rasberry's personnel keycard:
...but I don't find it such a serious offense.

3. Goodbye speeches:
Disagree. I understand where you come from...

4. Domino:
...but it's out of discussion that the Remake performs better in terms of credibilty in the whole infiltration ops. So yeah, not exactly genius writing, but an improvement still.

What I'm trying to point out are "trailer moments" if you will. And the overall approach: Style over substance.

"Small offenses" like these are all over the place. They are rather small in the grand-scheme, on THEIR OWN. The devil is in the details; details are important to make a believable story, and in the case of FF7R, the details are everywhere.
If a person manages to buy/ignore/accept logical flaws like these, and how many you manage to swallow -and in what frequency- before the story breaks, depends on the person, of course. Everyone is somewhere between 1: "Whatever, just go with it", OR  2: "Everything MUST make 110% sense". Logic is still logic though.
Your own experience, the art-style, the tone and the genre plays a huge part in where on the scale you end up. I wouldn't mind logical inconsistencies in an animated crazy comedy. The realistic art style in FF7R plays a huge role in why much of the stuff doesn't work. I've argued as far back as the release of the 1st trailer that this art style is a huge mistake, and that the story will end up taking a severe hit. Marketing is marketing though, so realistic style it is.
Due to the art style, lack of voice acting and other limitations in the original, the abstraction layer is much deeper. Headcanons are pretty much forced upon the consumer to some extent, and, imo, it works much better than how FF7R tells its story. I dread to think about how current SE would make any of the classic FFs. Welp, we kinda do know, FF7R, lol.

And to comment some of the specifics:
Sure, Cloud having a goodbye moment with Biggs, by itself, doesn't ruin FF7R, far from it. If this was FF7R's only potential flaw, it would still be chained logically together with everything else, and judged accordingly. However, the logical chain, as is, is severely broken in many places, and "trailer moments" like this plays a big part in breaking it.
Besides, the immediate scene here was more important for SE, that's the gist. If it makes sense, which it kinda doesn't, wasn't my main point here. They wanted that scene, and weren't very considerate about anything else. If they were, I dunno, they should have asked someone else to write it.

In these specific cases (goodbye speech, Domino, Tseng's broadcast etc), I'd say, cut them. If you can't make them work, or that they make slightly more AND less sense at the same time, why include them at all? In the case of Domino, the art style, and the overall more dark and gritty tone forced them to do something else, and it only half assedly worked imo. I've wouldn't have included any of it. Then again, how do you connect the scenes? Dunno, not my job lol.
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] FF7 remake discussion time!
Post by: IlMomo86 on 2020-05-14 20:07:41
@DLPB

To the remake's credit, Cloud is more nuanced here. While in the original game you'd see only the "cool uncaring SOLDIER" persona at this stage, in the remake you could clearly notice that the "true" Cloud actually notices and appreciates all the attention and praise he gets from Jessie&co and is slowly warming up to them. Being able to make such subtle nuances visible t's one of the benefits of an Hi-Tech remake.

I agree, you'd stop by Biggs in that situation, but not all that time. It broke my disbelief a little when he mentioned the Leaf House Orphanage out of nowhere in the midst of the battle. If you wanted to make that very good scene when he caresses Cloud's head, you should've made Biggs mention the Leaf House Orphanage in an earlier event; goofy writing.

But here's my point, the scene is in itself forgivable. It's a minor mistake. If you could've fixed it by changing just one sentence (Like in Jessie's dad keycard, a mere "Worry not, the keycards are not traceable") it means that it's not that much of a blunder.

It's the context that makes it unforgivable. Which brings me to the next guy...

@gjoerulv

Just to be clear, I'm arguing with you on the individual quality of some scenes, that's it. "Style over substance" has been S-E motto since many years now and it shows.

FF7 was not just graphically, musically and narratively beautiful, it also had a pretty strong gameplay. Of course modernizing that gameplay makes sense, but they also dumbed it down significantly, removing many magical elements (FF7 had a whopping 12 elements) and cutting physical elements entirely (that game had "sound" and "blunt" damage). They removed many possible materia combinations, and from certain materia you can guess that they also reduced status ailments. Nobody talks about that, but it'd be worth mentioning. I am not in any way making excuses for S-E's fixation for exaggerated beauty and hyper graphics.

That aside, you said "the devil is in the details" (I thought we had this saying only in Italy, wow). Well I disagree. IF the devil is in the details then Chap18 is either the smallest devil or the biggest detail that I ever witnessed in existence.

What I mean is, sure, Jessie or Biggs or Domino or whatever feel a little forced in certain steps. But you forgive it because you are working toward making a more impactful story in the end.

Except you aren't. Or at least, someone among the writers (I know who I'd pick) isn't. Because you see, they spent time developing the boys in order to make their deaths carry weight... only to make them not dead in the end. They made the Domino part to justify the bust-in... but they removed the capture, the defeat, the imprisonment and the very important Sephiroth part right after.

Long story short, I quite disagree that such mistakes would be a serious offense, if it wasn't for a very misplaced finale that ruins all the trust you've given to the narrators up to that point.

So yeah, call me repetitive but I stand by my statement, I consider chap18 to be on a whole other level of damage than any of the inconsistencies you mentioned. No, in fact I think those wouldn't even bother you as much, if the ending wasn't such a mess.
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] FF7 remake discussion time!
Post by: gjoerulv on 2020-05-14 23:30:11
So yeah, call me repetitive but I stand by my statement, I consider chap18 to be on a whole other level of damage than any of the inconsistencies you mentioned. No, in fact I think those wouldn't even bother you as much, if the ending wasn't such a mess.

They would. Trust me they would. The demo made me cringe A LOT. It was already broken before Cloud had entered the reactor. Naive as I am, I thought the storytelling would be good in the beginning AT LEAST. To be fair, reactor 1 is one of the better parts. Still, it broke me. And it was pretty much all the in the details there.

When I say the devil is in the details, I don't try to argue that the small details about this game is its worst aspect. I think everyone agrees the shit at the end is terrible. Even the laziest of minds will detect something off here. And I agree the levels of damage aren't equal. If it weren't for the ending, at least it could continue in some fashion without being accidental comedy.
What I'm getting at is that for me -and many others I'm sure- the story is already broken long before the ending partly because of the small stuff.
Everyone's suspension of disbelief aren't the same. Most/everyone has a different BS level before the immersion breaks. Every scene is littered with small immersion breakers here and there, and the fleshed out story only adds to it (yes, not EVERYTHING is bad, I'm doing broad strokes). I have a hard time getting through some scenes. My BS bucket is getting full fast and every BS drops feels heavier than the last.
Again, if one can handle it, don't care, whatever, then more power to you.

The ending (c18+) is laughably bad. It's comedy. The bad stuff before the ending is more like pain, disbelief, cringe and facepalms. Except for the whisperers. They're comedy too.
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] FF7 remake discussion time!
Post by: Izban on 2020-05-15 00:15:43
FF7 was not just graphically, musically and narratively beautiful, it also had a pretty strong gameplay. Of course modernizing that gameplay makes sense, but they also dumbed it down significantly, removing many magical elements (FF7 had a whopping 12 elements) and cutting physical elements entirely (that game had "sound" and "blunt" damage). They removed many possible materia combinations, and from certain materia you can guess that they also reduced status ailments. Nobody talks about that, but it'd be worth mentioning. I am not in any way making excuses for S-E's fixation for exaggerated beauty and hyper graphics.

Gotta disagree with you there, ff7 actually had fewer options materia wise at the end of midgar, you only scored fire,ice, lightning, restore,bio before the end of midgar and you only had slash,hit and pierce in physical damage, magic as a whole had a far smaller roll in og7 like lost number was the only time it really played a meaningful roll, with the exception of restore/revive unless you decided player set challenges were a super idea, even the row system didn't really play that much of a roll in normal combat, you were also subject to way fewer status ailments for the midgar section.
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] FF7 remake discussion time!
Post by: The Black-caped Man on 2020-05-15 09:08:18
But the remake is a 50h game isn't it? Spending 3-4h of gameplay with Fire/Ice/Thunder/Restore/Bio in the OG is justified because the Midgar section should slowly introduce you to the gameplay, story and characters which it does. The gameplay outside of Midgar soon becomes more complex with E-Skill coming online, level 2 LBs, Summons(Chocobo Farm), Earth(Kalm), etc.

Spending 50h in Midgar with just those Materia is definitely a dumb down. If they extend this chapter, they have to extend the gameplay here too which they didn't.

It's kinda not intuitive to me that peoples first arguement when defending the remake is always that extension isn't bad, more story, more characters is good and even used the phrase "better than the OG" while on the other hand for another important aspect(the gameplay and combat system) it seems perfectly fine to them to just do nothing more than the OG although the game is approximately 15 times longer than the OG section up to that point.
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] FF7 remake discussion time!
Post by: IlMomo86 on 2020-05-15 13:06:36
@Izban

Well, first off, everything The Black-caped Man said.

Second, there are various wrong things in your angle.

Starting with this: no one forced the devs to make the choice they made. No one forced them to make another graphical state-of-art game, which forced them to do a way shorter chapter than they could have with a tadbit less maxed-out visuals. Say, if they had kept the graphics at the FFXIII level (and I dare anyone say that it doesn't look beautiful enough) they would've had way more space and resources to concentrate on content, gameplay, writing. I know they would never do that and financially it would be a risky move, I get it, but it's their strategy, their choice, therefore their responsabilty. It's also their strategy -you know where this is going- to make a Midgar-only chapter and announce it as a "full-fledged rpg" with content enough to rival full titles. Honestly they didn't put a lot of effort in content especially in comparison to their announcements. Now, nobody in the right mind expected the content and game-time to be anywhere near the original game in terms of vastity and variety, but in some sections they were straight-off lazy. Now this is forgiven (by most) because re-interpreting and re-enacting a lot of the memorable moments of one of the most beloved sections of one of the most beloved games of history takes a lot of brain-power and effort.

But long story short making excuses for them because "at this point in the original game we had only..." is absurd. It's them in the first place who asked us to looks at this section as a standalone game. If your chosen path is to make a full-fledged RPG in Midgar, make one.

That said, if you pay attention, you'll notice that the (admittedly very good) gameplay they're lying the foundations for already hints heavily at an oversimplification. Red materia have a disconnected slot; Berserk being put in the "Seal" materia alludes the fact that they want to remove some status ailments; physical damage types have been probably cut entirely (not sure, but it looks that way); unlike what you seem to think, they haven't reduced the access to the elements (meaning: the specific magic materia to access them) they have reduced the CHART of elements, which are now only four plus restore. All this stuff hints at a clear will to cut off and simplify, even if they could perhaps change in the future. S-E nowadays is TERRIFIED of complexity and forgets that many of its memorable games were so good because there was complexity and depth but it wasn't mandatory; those were games with a lot to say, but never for snobs only.

Which brings to my third point. The gameplay of the original, you say, didn't give that much relevance to spells. Funny you saying it, because it's entirely untrue. The point of the original's gameplay was to give you freedom. In my case, my 11yrs old self was given the freedom to be a complete incompetent. I resolved every battle with a summon and exhausted my MP and resources quickly, had to escape a lot and faced many bosses with sub-par levels, compensating with intense grinding sections. I played in the most unimaginative, unfun, and idiotic way but I was given FREEDOM to do so. I started to get the importance of sonic or shoot or piercing damage years later, though from the visuals I guessed that there was some sort of elemental-physical damage. And that's true for spells as well; no one goes throwing a Firaga to Safer Sephiroth, but in the resource management that goes between the start of a dungeon and the boss, understanding when throwing a Firaga rather than a KoR makes the difference if you want to play it smooth. You are not FORCED to play it smooth, you are not DENIED the chance to go around pressing attack over and over with an over-leveled party, you are not PRESSED to follow the optimal route. Which is what makes the game.

Don't get me wrong, FF7R had a very good gameplay with some really clever design choices, but it's in many aspects yet another occasion in which S-E decided that depth and variety can be forsaken to appeal the modern mass tastes. It's a fresh take, but not always an improvement.
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] FF7 remake discussion time!
Post by: The Black-caped Man on 2020-05-15 16:38:59
I resolved every battle with a summon and exhausted my MP and resources quickly, had to escape a lot and faced many bosses with sub-par levels, compensating with intense grinding sections. I played in the most unimaginative, unfun, and idiotic way

I know that from somewhere^^ Guess we had a similar first time experience:)

Quote
S-E nowadays is TERRIFIED of complexity and forgets that many of its memorable games were so good because there was complexity and depth but it wasn't mandatory;

I can still to this day remember that even in the old Squaresoft days I would play FF7 and FF8 as a kid, have a good time and have no real problem with the complexity of their gameplay and then later be shocked how negative some critics were with them. I still remember an article in a magazine attacking FF8 for its "overwhelmingly complex junction system you cannot possibly grasp on your first playthrough" while in the end this is a lot simpler than most other FFs...you assign the spell that gives the highest bonus number to each slot, you even have auto optimal assignment options according to what your looking for....apparently that was too hard for some adults to understand....Not to mention you are forced to do all these Quistis tutorials every time you play(not all, but most and I really dislike that theres no option to skip this) that really explain everything thoroughly.
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] FF7 remake discussion time!
Post by: IlMomo86 on 2020-05-15 17:13:08
I still remember an article in a magazine attacking FF8 for its "overwhelmingly complex junction system you cannot possibly grasp on your first playthrough"

Interesting thing to say. I had FF8 as a gift a month before it came out in Italy. It was in japanese. I didn't understand a single thing, but I went like, ok let's see how far I can get with what I know. Meaning, I didn't understand A SINGLE THING. I had Guardian Force but I was unable to use those. I had access to spells, but had no idea of how to take them. I could use items, and I learned somehow what kanji corresponded to potions. Basically I did nothing but attack, heal myself and grind to boost stats.

Now for the big question: when did I stop playing? When did the game FORCE me to stop playing like a moron?

The answer is, it didn't. I stopped at the end of disc1 because disc2 was damaged and didn't start.

So yeah, I'd say it was a rather forgiving game, in my book.

Videogame magazines where pretty dumb sometimes.

But hey, that reviewer would be happy today, the industry caters to him. Parting the elements in Fire, Ice, Lightning and Wind makes no sense whatsoever, but at least you shouldn't remember all the complicated stuff like magic gravity damage, physical sonic damage and so on. Errr, I mean, you could still ingnore this stuff and play from FF6 to FF9 just fine if you didn't want to go in-depth, but the mere POSSIBILITY to go in-depth may scare out some consumers still. To give them the feeling that they're not understanding the game if they are entirely unwilling to put minimal intellectual effort in it? Yeah, that too might upset consumers. Precious consumers.

Bah.
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] FF7 remake discussion time!
Post by: -Ric- on 2020-05-15 23:05:00
I still remember an article in a magazine attacking FF8 for its "overwhelmingly complex junction system you cannot possibly grasp on your first playthrough"

That's actually hilarious.
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] FF7 remake discussion time!
Post by: Izban on 2020-05-16 06:33:46
My point was more about comparing the 1 to 1 comparison of remake to og7, remake has far more options then og7 has for the midgar section, and the beauty is that it's easy to add to in part 2 due to how they have done the pairings even if bolt/wind is an odd choice

Ff8 junction system is only complex if you ignore the 10minute tutorial on your first playthrough, og7 materia system is probably the best soft system for character customisation that isn't pulled straight from d&d and it isn't exactly anywhere close to reaching its potential, even with the mods found here which bring it a long way forward from where it was.

Basically as much as I love og7 from a gameplay perspective the majority of the systems in place are effectively a different coat of paint in execution when the systems have the potential to make a car fly.
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] FF7 remake discussion time!
Post by: Dark Phoenix on 2020-05-16 16:22:44
FF4 on the DS

FF4 on the DS was a mostly faithful remake story-wise, but it was a trainwreck gameplay-wise.  A much more faithful remake of FF4 is the PSP version.

As for the whole "It's fine that there's only a few magic options in FF7R because there were only a few magic options in Midgar in the original" thing, um, NO ONE WAS FORCING THEM TO MAKE A GAME THAT ONLY COVERED MIDGAR...

You chose to take the 4h segment at the beginning and turn it into a full game.  You can't point to the original now as if they were logically equivalent, because one is now 10x as long as the other...
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] FF7 remake discussion time!
Post by: -Ric- on 2020-05-16 16:55:25
FF4 on the DS was a mostly faithful remake story-wise, but it was a trainwreck gameplay-wise.  A much more faithful remake of FF4 is the PSP version.

The PSP version is definitely more faithful (and gorgeous in my opinion) but the difficulty of the DS version is extremely fun. Also, wasn't the PSP version broken? Something with battles being far more easy than they actually should?
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] FF7 remake discussion time!
Post by: IlMomo86 on 2020-05-16 16:59:07
Basically as much as I love og7 from a gameplay perspective the majority of the systems in place are effectively a different coat of paint in execution when the systems have the potential to make a car fly.

I don't entirely disagree on this, if you wanted some hardcore challenges then you had to know your battle system well, but if you sticked to the main quest there is a bunch of times you can quite ignore the workings of materias altoghether. As I said it was structured this way to give you freedom - you can play ignorantly, but it will make your game dumber and longer (I'm living proof of it) but not as much as it should, and surely there were not as much chances on the other end of the spectrum to go deep and thoughtful, as one would hope. Mods like the ones here are a great incentive to raise the difficulty bar a little, and refresh the experience. I wouldn't say it was wasted potential, but I agree that it left much unexplored.

Not sure FF7R will add depth in the future, though. From the premises I'd say no.
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] FF7 remake discussion time!
Post by: Izban on 2020-05-17 01:02:09
@iimomo86
Here's an example within the ai script there is a threat system that action dependent will make the enemies attack a certain character, now the issue is that the values of every action while tracked are hardly ever used  but the allowance is there to use them.

Or the materia system, which in effect is just a partial job system, you have a system that can make any of the previous classes from the FF series but the base stat adjustment don't actually move things enough that the character have a different feel, so again the potential is there but isnt utilised.
How about the weapons with different damage calculations they have a fair assortment of different calculations, that end up being a waste of time cause there is no reason to use a weapon once you get the next one cause there base attack power is better then the fancy calculations.

Now remake actually addressed these issues, the is a reason to use different weapons because the weapons level up, materia builds make a noticeable difference in how a character plays, as for the threat player is almost always the target, not saying that it's perfect cause there is a fair bit of growth that could still be made but it's a damn site better then og7
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] FF7 remake discussion time!
Post by: IlMomo86 on 2020-05-24 20:22:51
not saying that it's perfect cause there is a fair bit of growth that could still be made but it's a damn site better then og7

So you're saying that the gameplay of a full 40hrs game that came out in earlier 2020 and has been praised far and wide as a new peak of jrpg battle systems is actually better than the first 4hrs of a game that came out in 1997.

Yeah, I do agree. It's not that hard to come up with such an uncontroversial analysis, though.

I was trying to convey the sense that while the battle system is definitely an improvement, I'm getting the FEELING (and unlike on the narrative side, here I have no way to back it up, as it may completely turn out untrue, so the emphasis on the word FEELING) that they'll be cutting much of the more nuanced, complex and sometimes hidden stuff that made FF7 such a joy to explore and experiment with, with many hardcore or even entirely missable parts of the gameplay. Of course I do realize that this would mean that the work the devs did is not 100% pristine and perfect, a concept unacceptable to some.

Now you understand why is hard to take some of you seriously. Even if I say that the game is 95% awesome but there's a 5% I find distasteful, you come up with absurd notions such as this one to get across the point that the game should be 100% above of all criticism. Which is basically fanboy-ing.

Yeah, the gameplay of FF7R is better. It's not just better because is modernized, but also because of some very clever choices they made (like taking the stagger system, or putting some emphasis in characters uniqueness). That doesn't mean that every form of criticism toward some design directions taken should be considered heresy.
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] FF7 remake discussion time!
Post by: LeonhartGR on 2020-05-24 23:54:00
The ultimate FFVII-R PS4 console unboxing (giveaway included) https://youtu.be/SEt0c3fY0vk.
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] FF7 remake discussion time!
Post by: -Ric- on 2020-05-25 02:57:59
http://www.pushsquare.com/news/2020/05/interview_final_fantasy_vii_remake_producer_and_co-director_on_development_launch_and_being_grateful_for_the_fans

Quote
Kitase: I personally envisioned quite a dramatic change overall, but our director; Tetsuya Nomura and co-director; Naoki Hamaguchi, wanted to keep the beloved aspects in the original as much as possible. Eventually the development team decided to focus on respecting the original while adding in new elements, ensuring a delicate balance between the two.

Lol @ Nomura's haters. May your heads not explode.

I'm just kidding, don't get offended people.

By the way, the Platinum trophy felt "meh". While not as easy as the OG FF7 Platinum... it was lame. The lack of a any real superboss is a pity and something that I hope is added in part two.
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] FF7 remake discussion time!
Post by: Izban on 2020-05-25 04:27:46
I was trying to convey the sense that while the battle system is definitely an improvement, I'm getting the FEELING (and unlike on the narrative side, here I have no way to back it up, as it may completely turn out untrue, so the emphasis on the word FEELING) that they'll be cutting much of the more nuanced, complex and sometimes hidden stuff that made FF7 such a joy to explore and experiment with, with many hardcore or even entirely missable parts of the gameplay. Of course I do realize that this would mean that the work the devs did is not 100% pristine and perfect, a concept unacceptable to some.

Now you understand why is hard to take some of you seriously. Even if I say that the game is 95% awesome but there's a 5% I find distasteful, you come up with absurd notions such as this one to get across the point that the game should be 100% above of all criticism. Which is basically fanboy-ing.

I'm not here to be taken seriously, only to voice an opinion, and back my opinions with my logic, which is definitely distasteful to some, almost entirely filled with spelling mistakes and grammatical errors, mainly cause I can't spell and I'm on a phone.

Battle is where most of the gameplay takes place, which is almost entirely. Great experience, with the exception of the aerial combat and some materia combos being totally useless, overall though it's a damn site better then og7's complete base battle system(NT is still og7's battle system just actually done right from my understanding {haven't actually played have viewed}) remakes battle system has plenty of room to grow as subsequent parts come out.

There are definitely issues that I personally have with remake just like I have issues with og7 and the compilation, genisis, deep ground, geo-stigma. But the issues I have aren't bad enough to warrant the unbridled fury some people are attacking it with, dodgy camera, aerial combat, poorly optimised texture load sequencing, story adjustments. And sure there are some quality of life things that would be recommended like a gambit system, materia loadouts, additional endgame content, auto-sense. But overall from what I've played I've enjoyed far more then I do with most games, some of which is definitely nostalgia because I'm a big fan of og7's characters(some of there versions are craptacular), I feel there is far more character development/understanding across the board which was a nice touch.

I'm definitely a fanboy of og7 but I can say with almost 100% certainty that I'm not a fanboy of remake, I played remake in 1.5-3 stints for the better part of a month without it feeling stale or needing to play something else to wash a bad taste out of my brain, so I had plenty of time to digest the information I was getting, and I believe the remake is objectively better gameplay wise, narratively I subjectively can understand the direction they've taken and it doesn't offend me,the somewhat camp dialogue that is so offensive to some I found to be fairly to the original and I felt the voices were the best interpretation of the characters so far, and the music was damn amazing to listen to, overall I found remake better then og7, however without og7 I would appreciate it quite as much
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] FF7 remake discussion time!
Post by: avensis18 on 2020-05-25 13:27:29
I agree with that, he's really not on point in the remake, I was disappointed.
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] FF7 remake discussion time!
Post by: IlMomo86 on 2020-05-25 14:34:39

Lol @ Nomura's haters. May your heads not explode.


Aside from the fact that I don't hate Nomura (misconception number 1) and that I think many of the changed stuff was actually better (misconception number 2), this is still actually quite interesting. Because you know, there are multi-pages interviews in the ultimania when it's stated over and over again that the idea to create a Remake as the conclusion of the compilation and not as a Remake in the defining sense, was Nomura's. The ending is pretty much all of Nomura's ideas. The light VS dark symbolism, Nomura claims personally it's his contribution. So there, I have trouble putting those words in context since they contradict everything else the dev themselves stated. Probably it has to do with which "the beloved aspects" are in their opinion. In the Ultimania for instance Nomura singles out as an important aspect that he struggled to mantain "the spikyness of Cloud's hair" because as unrealistic as they are, Cloud wouldn't feel Cloud without them.

Ironically, while this may sound out like an incredibly immature and shallow example by him, I actually agree with Nomura there. It is worth mentioning that Nomura is an amazing character designer and that some of the choices he made where fundamental for the greatness of the series. I just remark that his sense of "mantaining" the story could differ from common sense.

I just think he is not as good at writing stories as he is at designing characters. Whoever had the misfortune of reading Cloud's dialogue in both AC and KH seems to agree that while he can definitely make Cloud look cool he doesn't have the slightest sense of how Cloud acts and speaks.

That said, all the FFs have been collective works, so giving Nomura all the blame is generally unreasonable.



There are definitely issues that I personally have with remake just like I have issues with og7 and the compilation, genisis, deep ground, geo-stigma. But the issues I have aren't bad enough to warrant the unbridled fury some people are attacking it with,

LOL the unbridled fury. You meen the consistently 9+ scores on reviews? The huge numbers of copies sold (two of them bought by me?). The universal praise to art direction, sound direction, character design, dialogue writing, combat system, respect for nostalgia, worldbuilding? The whole new wave of fandom the characters are getting?

This game is getting no unbridled fury at all. This far is could very well be the best game of 2020, even if a few big shots are coming next (eg TLOU2), but it's hard to think that personally I could appreciate them more than I did FF7R.

Try defending FF12 and poor YazMat back when that came out and that will give you a sense of what unbridled (and unjustified) hate toward a game is.

The fact is simple, even among those who were overwhelmingly positive about the game (meaning, the majority, me included), even about the narrative changes, the final chapter felt like a huge misstep -one famous italian youtuber even said he agreed with the "remaking history" idea but that the way it was executed, presented and written was still utterly craptacular- and the combat system seems like an early draft of what it could become.

About the combat system it's also worth mentioning that this is again not my own opinion but the devs, who explicitly said that the game was their chance to lay the basics of the battle gameplay, again in the Ultimania.

Those with fury are, in my eyes, those who are blindly defending every last inch of it (just to avoid misunderstanding I don't mean people in this discussion, who everything aside are fundamentally civil) and claiming that this hugely successful game is being "discriminated".
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] FF7 remake discussion time!
Post by: Izban on 2020-05-26 00:33:31
@Iimomo86 you are fun, while I still maintain chapters 17-18 become less egregious on subsequent playthroughs I'm curious as to how you would adjust them while maintaining the plot elements to make them passable
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] FF7 remake discussion time!
Post by: IlMomo86 on 2020-05-26 15:40:31
@Iimomo86 you are fun, while I still maintain chapters 17-18 become less egregious on subsequent playthroughs I'm curious as to how you would adjust them while maintaining the plot elements to make them passable

You misunderstand, I am not the one saying the problem lies in execution. I still mantain my opinion that the core plot points of FF7 are in contradiction with the additions in FF7R. And that while the following titles may execute the narrative well and obtain a decent story the path to do so is narrow, and still leads to a somewhat worse final product than the original narrative.

I still have to hear from just about anyone how could you put together:
1. a delusional and unreliable hero AND a chosen by destiny
2. a sense of irreparable loss in death AND multiple timelines or alt-universes
3. the theme of acceptance (of your shortcomings, of death, of defeat) AND rewriting your fate
4. an extreme ecologist message in the ending (Holy) AND the fight to avert/rewrite that "bad" ending
5. a freudian-lovecraftian haunting presence antagonist motivated by his alien-ess AND a "worthy rivals" dynamic with an ever present and talkative antagonist

I still haven't found anyone with a satisfactory reply to any of this. So yeah, I think it was a lame execution, but I wasn't that fixated on the execution myself as much as the concepts.

Still, if you are interested in the reasoning of people like that famous italian youtuber I mentioned -and I assume you are since my points I made plenty clear already- I can make you a short summary of his crucial objections to the execution of the finale.

Premises:
Spoiler: show

First off, to follow this reasoning you must accept the premises best summarized by Maximilian Dood, which are essentially:
1) Sephiroth's interest in breaking the course of fate is related to his future defeat
2) the group's interest in breaking the course of fate is related to the damage Holy will cause to humanity
3) Sephiroth and Aerith didn't "travel" through time, they communicated with the Lifestream which exists outside of time, and that's why they have their awareness
4) Zack is alive in a parallel course (and will be something like the Laguna Loire of FF7R) that needs to collapse at some point to make things right
5) the fact that people like Biggs or Jessie survived will seem positive at first but will start a negative chain of events
6) Aerith's sacrifice will be inevitable in the end

All this stuff is to point out that basically all the changes are made to make the original story (which is well known and spoiler-ed for all of us) live a renewed life; they will give us the illusion that we can avert the difficult choices and "make it right" in order to make the inevitable losses more impactful. Basically the changes in chap18 serve the same purpose of the changes in, say, WallMarket: you change stuff in order to make it fitting and impactful in 2020 as it was in 1997.

This list of assumptions is pivotal in evaluating chap18 as CONCEPTUALLY valid. I think many of these assumptions are really more the fruit of intelligent speculation by Maximilian Dood's and the likes of him, which is why I don't share the optimism.

Though I give credit to the basic consideration (by both Maximilian, Mike and many others) that the rest of the game is so well-written that the Devs deserve the benefit of the doubt and more.


Adjustments according to "Mike of the Desert" or "Sabaku No Maiku" (not my opinions, keep in mind):
Spoiler: show

1) the whispers' names

The whispers are traslated differently from one language to another (in italian, for instances, they are called with the latin-orum term "NUMEN") but the original wording in japanese was something similar to "receptors" or "intermediaries". People point out that mantaining a traslation similar to the original would've been crucial. Because while the concept of breaking fate by beating the sh** out of it doesn't make any sense,  the concept of interrupting the communication between the Planet's Will/Fate and reality by destroying its receptors is a lot more credibly sized, just like cutting some Kraken tentacles with a sword is more credible than splitting the whole Kraken in a half with it.

2) the escalation problem

Consequence of the previous point. If I literally have to fight and take down Destiny incarnate in the end of part1, what should be topping this at the end of part2 or for that matters, at the beginning of part3? Same problem with fighting Sephiroth so early in the story, the absolutely over-the-top action with power levels to Advent Children and beyond, and the unnecessary One Winged Angel playing, not mentioning the final scenes reminscent of the final Seph VS Cloud fight. Basically they overdid it. Rather than all that DragonBall-level of destruction, make the portal open to some desolate dimension and have the last fight there without going all-out with spectacolarization. What you are fighting (the Harbinger) indeed does exist outside of time and space so you could definitely do that.

3) the Fate Weapon

Since the FF7 worldbuilding already has designed a canonical "defense system" that hypotethically corrects or eliminates threats in the form of Weapons, rather than cramming in the narrative an out-of-place Darksider ripoff, it would be more coherent and elegant to just theorize the existence of yet another different Weapon (Opal Weapon? Amethyst Weapon?) that is specifically designed to intervene when something threatens a specific part of the Planet (its Will, or so called Destiny). Since the group destroys the Fate Weapon receptors, the Fate Weapon still exists, but it cannot interact directly with reality. The concept of a Weapon would be alien to new players, but not any more confusing than the story that actually got portrayed on screen and, unlike the Harbinger, coherent with the enstabilished FF7 universe. The existence of two exceptional individuals (Aerith and Sephiroth) justifies the chance that the "Great River" of Destiny can be altered and therefore the Fate Weapon's necessity to intervene. It makes logical sense since normally people can't even see the Whispers/receptors in the first place, only the Cetra could (and the Cetra would never challenge the Planet's Will) which explains why no one other ever attempted to defy fate. Basically the "Fate Weapon" would be a Weapon that normally operates stealthly and that the characters just happen to unmask due to Sephiroth's plan.

*notice that you don't need to explain all of this with exposition, just restyling the final enemies and naming the Harbinger a "Opal Weapon" or such would carry in and of itself all the meaning

**notice that his adjustment can be possible only if one of Maximilian Dood's theories is incorrect, the one in which he says that the name (Harbinger) is a hint (through Vincent's words in AC) that Jenova seized the control of the Whispers.

***notice that a minor plot hole is still there, as in why Seph doesn't just destroy the Whispers himself.

4) the Portal

Another point in which the youtuber criticizes the Kingdom Hearts symbolism, as Aerith seems to "purify" the Portal with "light". Since the closest thing to "light" in FF7 is Sancta, that scene needlessly muddles the symbolism and creates more problems with the worldbuilding than it solves. Especially since, narratively speaking, after Aerith's "purification" of the portal nothing specific seems to happen, as the party still follows Sephiroth through the Singularity as intended.

*notice that this adjustment assumes that Aerith is using Sancta just for show, and that the general speculation of where the story is heading is correct.

5) The Boss Fight

The Whispers boss fight is indeed lame from a gameplay perspective, especially after the outstanding Rufus and Motorball boss fights earlier. Make it shorter, although the general meaning of it stays the same - you cannot directly defeat the Harbinger/Fate Weapon, but you can disconnect him from its receptors by destroying them. Make the Whispers stronger, less repetitive and more interesting to fight.

*notice, again, that this can be coherent with the game's given definition of the Whispers (as a defense system of the Planet's Will) but only if you don't agree that Jenova has infected the Whispers. The fact that the three final Whispers are inspired by Kadaj, Loz and Yazoo (again confirmed by Ultimania) lends credence to the theory that Jenova infected the Whispers, but not entirely as the Whispers may simply be using memories to shape the REMINISCE SEPHIROTH and the other three. Then again, such a theory would create more problems that it can solve, again: if Jenova and Sephiroth are in control of the Whispers they don't need anyone to defeat the Whispers at all, and are in fact omnipotent. It would solve the problem of why Seph doesn't beat the Whispers himself though, but at the cost of creating other contradictions.

6) The Four Sephiroths

As Ultimania states, there are four Seph in FF7R: ILLUSION, BLACK CAPE, REMINISCENCE and ???. ILLUSION is the one that exists only in Cloud's mind and that acts as a tormentor, as darkness in his heart (basically, Nomura's Sephiroth). The other is the Seph avatar that takes the bodies of the Black Capes N02 and N49 to interact with the word, in other words BLACK CAPE is the FF7og Sephiroth. The third is a "REMINESCENCE" of the past (supposedly, the Seph that you actually fight, which appears to be crafted by the Whispers) and the final ??? one is the one that invites Cloud to defy destiny and speaks with him at "The Edge of Creation", supposedly all-knowing and coming from the future. Rather than all this confusion, avoid the over-use of Sephiroth in the first part and cut ILLUSION SEPH entirely, cut the boss fight with REMINESCENCE SEPH, and make the BLACK CAPE and ??? Sephiroths to be the same Sephiroth. This to avoid the over-use of the character and the quite exaggerated and distasteful final confrontation.

*notice that this would be possible only if the premises are true and therefore not Aerith nor Sephiroth actually travel in time, they just have a four-dimensional understanding of time thanks to the Lifestream, otherwise the presence of multiple Sephiroths is inevitable; and this once again creates problems as it would imply multiple Clouds, multiple Aeriths, and so on.


There you have it. This is the most optimistic outlook out there on the "Grand Finale" of FF7R, where is it going and how it could have been put on screen in a more smooth way, according to some experts. If you find all of this to be needlessly contrived and uselessly circling around the story themes of FF7 with efforts that should be better directed elsewhere and numerous plot holes along the line, then you can finally perhaps see when I am coming from.
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] FF7 remake discussion time!
Post by: Dark Phoenix on 2020-05-26 19:29:46
I just think he is not as good at writing stories as he is at designing characters. Whoever had the misfortune of reading Cloud's dialogue in both AC and KH seems to agree that while he can definitely make Cloud look cool he doesn't have the slightest sense of how Cloud acts and speaks.

Hence the "Emo Cloud" meme, because Nomura always writes Cloud as an emo edgelord, whereas you don't see much of that in original FF7.  As I said before, I never really liked FF7, but even I could see that Cloud's personality in later works wasn't close to his personality in FF7.
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] FF7 remake discussion time!
Post by: Izban on 2020-05-27 01:52:51
@iimomo86 that's fairly well thought out, however I disagree with having to make the whispers weapons, mainly because it's already shown in og7 that Gaia has multiple defense's holy, meteor, summons(cetra)and the weapons, the whispers make sense if you treat them as corrupted cetra souls, which would make cleansing Sephiroths portal a way to cleanse the corruption of the fallen cetra, now if you tied that to jenova being the source of the corruption you can form a coherent story using that as a catalyst, while maintaining possible alternative timelines, seeing as jenova is at minimum the cetra extinction event in age, which would allow a possible end point where you actually kill jenova(Lavos) in pre-cetra extinction history as a final boss.

All of this assumes that at some point time travel becomes a legitimate part of remakes canon at which, isn't exactly a stretch due to time dilation materia, but it does open up the opportunity to address the Cloud being an unreliable hero in a far more meaningful way.

Near as I can tell the escalation problem you suggest, becomes a non-issue if the whispers are infact corrupted souls because your just fighting effectively mid-low range summons as they don't have a defined form, and Sephiroth is for all intents and purposes is only a fraction of his actual potential power.it's already established lore wise that soldier are capable of superhuman feats, making the building cutting plausible,  I would also argue that Gaia as a whole has a lower gravitational mass then earth based on average feats by "normal" humans in og7, numerous survivors of definitely fatal falls under earth gravity.

Og7's canon actually has allowances for a great many things that lets face it were never really explored, as you said the weapons are made by the planet and are effectively sentient materia,  jenova has the power to corrupt the Lifestream, the temple of the ancients is the black materia and it details at least 1 previous use, there is localised time manipulation, and sentience past actual death, memories are transferrable, mako is the Lifestream meaning materia is also crystalised Lifestream
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] FF7 remake discussion time!
Post by: Jedimark on 2020-06-06 11:29:43
Hello hello, old-timer here, I probably joined these forums 20 years ago! Just finished playing through the remake and thought 'Hey, I wonder what my old friends on qhimm.com thought of the remake'. This thread has been an interesting read :-D

On a personal note I absolutely loved it - mainly for the nostalgia I guess. The music was great, the gameplay was okay, the story was... well I actually like that it's not going to be a direct remake. I hope they don't get too lost in the whole idea of multiple timelines and the inevitable paradoxes that will emerge. Time will tell I guess. "Seven seconds 'till the end" - I guess we're going to try and save Aerith, but I suspect her fate is sealed oneway or another.

On a separate note, I've just been browsing through some of the projects this community has been working on over these past 10 years or so. Amazing work everyone!

Any other old-timers still about?
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] FF7 remake discussion time!
Post by: Izban on 2020-06-07 04:30:26
Yes
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] FF7 remake discussion time!
Post by: ocac on 2020-06-20 06:41:59
Yet to try Hard Mode on Remake (I want to try it in Japanese - the VA alone reveals significant translation differences with the English script), but like some others:

I definitely felt I enjoyed myself for what I paid, but it would be a strange game to try and recommend. I would find it easier to recommend a fan of the original listen to the game rather than play it, which is bizarre. That said, it is the most attractive addition to the "Compilation" for me - I tolerated DoC, was bemused by AC, and was warned off CC/BC. Reading up on the latter two, I think the warning was fair, but they seem to somehow have their fans.

*(In FFXII I was a big fan of chasing the biggest "game" available as early as possible - it made you OP for the main plot - but put you in conflict with the next bit-too-much Side Quest or Secret Boss, improvising to compensate the advantages plot progression would later give you, which added a strategic layer. Yet to try the Zodiac Age version and very curious for impressions on that.)
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] FF7 remake discussion time!
Post by: obesebear on 2020-06-20 17:24:09
I would disagree about cc being bad.  I think it's the only decent thing to come out of the compilation. 

I'm currently working on a before crisis game, hoping to improve the script and make it a worthwhile addition to FF7
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] FF7 remake discussion time!
Post by: Cicciolo on 2020-06-27 01:14:15
Loved this remake despite its flaws. I didn't care that much about Chapter 18, i've already moved on and i'm curious about what they're going to do in the second part and beyond.

The things i liked the most are the soundtrack (especially the boss themes... they've experimented a lot in this game), improved characters backgrounds for the Avalanche members, certain expanded areas (like the whole Chapter 15), and the boss battles.

This is the first new JRPG i've played in more than a decade, i've done two full playthroughs on Normal and Hard difficulty, it was "panic-inducing" sometimes (surviving Airbuster and Abzu's strongest attacks with one character and a filled Limit Break bar ready to hit, is PRICELESS) but absolutely doable.

This was the first fully priced game (actually, i saved like 15 euros thanks to a promotion) i've ever bought for PS4. I loved the original and have always wanted to relive game like this with changes/twists added here and there. Too bad i'm probably going to need a PS5 to see the next part, at this point. Oh well.
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] FF7 remake discussion time!
Post by: jbi on 2020-11-26 17:10:04
Awful awful awful. After waiting an eternity for this remake, what a huge disappointment.

I've sold my copy and will never be revisiting this abomination again.

Square Enix need to take a good hard look at themselves.
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] FF7 remake discussion time!
Post by: sainivedant41 on 2021-02-08 14:06:29
If FF7R is released on PC you can always mod it to remove the retcons and restore original outfits. It's not a big deal, though it is funny that SE can't tell a decent story to save their lives.
mobdro (https://get-mobdro.com/home/) tubemate (https://get-tubemate.com)
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] FF7 remake discussion time!
Post by: rajputaman04 on 2021-02-09 10:42:05
I cannot comment on the combat system since I haven't played a demo yet. Some say it's definitely better than that of FF15, and that there is at least some depth to it, so we'll see.
Title: Re: [SPOILERS] FF7 remake discussion time!
Post by: LeonhartGR on 2021-02-12 11:32:06
Waiting for Final Fantasy VII Remake Part 2
 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kmdSpwWIKPI&ab_channel=SlayerSantiago)