Serious flaws is final fantasy 7's music.

[jeffdamann]

I've tried to hold this discussion before, but now I have the tools to explain my case better.

Here is the problem:Music sounds okay in ff7, prolly not a big difference to an undiscerning ear, but believe it or not these midi instruments had effects placed on them that are simply missing in-game(as in reverb,sustain,distortion, and really a lot of the goodies. Using the limited midi technology they had to do what they could to spruce up the music.

How I know this: I have extracted all the psf's from my psx copy, and I have the ones from Covarr as well.The sets of files are complete equals, so ff7music's psf's are not the problem.

The way I tested this is to load my psflib into winamp and play my psf's through there. SOUNDS WONDERFUL!!!!!! I see that most of you guys are on laptops, and maybe with a smaller sound system the effects wouldnt be there, but im sure if you put on a good set of headphones you will hear it clearly.

I on the other hand have a crappy rca surround, so I have a bit more volume depth than a laptop user.

When testing this problem I would first have a psf Open in winamp playing. Next, I would open ff7 in a window, so I can set the volumes for it and winamp seperately.

Then, I head to a place with a psf that has lots of effects, such as under the pillar in midgar or many others, (more notes on useful files is in an edit.)
After getting to a place that is suitable, I select the correct song in winamp, and listen to it at high volume,with winamps setting untouched.
I then mute winamp and unmute ff7....
The difference is unbelievable!  Now again I must say this may not be an issue with laptop users, or other users as well, it may only be my pc. But I wish I could fix this problem. I am about to make a video illustrating what I laid out above.
 Edit: This one sucks, watch the other for a better representation(see my post below)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IHXt7lLHSR8   P.S. Im now gonna do a few more to illustrate. The videos will be much better since I learned how to use the program on that run.

[halkun]

I'm not understanding the problem.

You are saying that the native PSX audio in an emulator is rendered differently than in another application that just plays the audio? Or that the MIDI in the PC version is inferior to the PSX version.

Yes, that is going to happen. The PSX sound chip doesn't play MIDI. It's an audio co-possessor. The PSF files are not MIDI files. They are chunks of APU code. Different programs are going to render them different because they are emulating the APU in different ways. What matters is quality of the music playing out of a real hardware PSX.

As for the MIDI files that are in the PC version. They are actually *earlier* versions of the music before they were converted to PSX APU code. After that they were tweaked natively using the PSX's sound chip. This is why you will never get the same quality from the raw MIDI versions.

[jeffdamann]

Well what I mean is this. I grew up and played ff7 all my life and the music was AWESOME. Beat it 25 times before my cousin gave me his old pc version. In all that time, being musically inclined(i tend to memorize every note in a song) I have grown to know every song inside and out.

Upon playing the pc Version, things went horribly awry. The examples in my videos should show you. I agree with what you said above, but I could do these videos with epsxe instead of winamp and get the same results, the pc version is  not adding the EFFECTS on to the notes. I know nothing of the way these files work, but I guarantee you as a musician(crappy guitarist lol) that there are many effects applied in all other forms of playing the file except for FF7:PC..
 
Also it sounds like you may have not watched the first vid, and if so then I sucked at illustrating the point
Since I did such a bad job turning things on and off, I just recorded the sone in full thru FF7:PC and Winamp so anyone can just skip forwards and backwards as they please.

Listen to this one, Its a MAJOR difference, and if this is happening to you guys as well(someone needs to check thoroughly)then we are ALL missing out on what is to me an integral part of the best game ever.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gHwJ7feGgjk - Bombing Mission (Fight)

[halkun]

Yes, the PC MIDI music and the PSX music are different. This has been known for years.

The effects you are on about were added after the MIDI files were converted into APU data. The MIDI versions are earlier versions of the music, and in a completely different format.

[jeffdamann]

But you do know in my vid Im playing the exact same files right?

For the video purposes I used the psf's that came from final fantasy music. I still don't understand why you are saying that the exact same file is supposed to sound different. Maybe Im just stupid.

It just seems to me that if I am playing the file from ff7music's psf folder through winamp, then switch to ff7 running ff7music...using the exact same psf file...then it should sound the same.
Why are you telling me its supposed to be that way..can nothing be done about this?

If you or anyone have any ideas please just point me in the right direction and Ill try to fix this for all of us.

[halkun]

Ahh, you were using FF7Music

1) a PSF file will play differently in different programs because the music is being rendered via an APU emulator
2) Different PSF renderers use different emulation cores. Some are for speed, others are for accuracy.
3) In your case, you are using a PSF renderer in FF7Music, and another in Winamp.
4) My theory, is that the Winamp renderer (psflib) is more full-featured, because it doesn't have the baggage of a having to support an entire game engine.

PSF files are not music files. They are the programs that are uploaded to the PSX Audio processor that make the music. They contain the data for rendering the music, for example notes and sounds, but the "Player" is actually in the PSF itself. The code ether gets executed on a PSX Audio processor, or using an emulator on PC.

Contrast to a MIDI file, which has not audio, just notes. (It's a digital music sheet)

Contrast with a .WAV file or an .MP3 which is a digital recording of sound.

The upshot is the renderer in FF7Music doesn't have all the bells and whistles of a full-blown PSF renderer, or is using an older one. That's why you are getting different results.

[jeffdamann]

ff7 and winamp both are running on the HIGHLY EXPERIMENTAL plugin of the same version.
This plugin is what comes with covarrs pack and was released by winamp s long time ago.

This plugin is designed specifically to play the psf files, and I believe covarr made ff7music make use of that, however, somewhere along the way, the music got distorted.

If you watch bombing mission. and transition from around 30 secs in to the 1st and second song, youll notice there are 2 instruments COMPLETELY missing from ff7 vs winamp. Namely a trumpet and a string.

As I said b4 any ideas are welcomed. This is bugging me really bad now. lol.

[Armorvil]

The first files you played in the videos aren't PSFs, it's FFVII PC's midis. If you're using FF7Music, then it is just badly configured. When I select PSF playback in FF7Music, the musics sound as good as when you play them using Winamp.

[jeffdamann]

I knew it had to be something like that, lemme try to redownload again.

Edit: No go, I reinstalled all the newest ff7music. Same issue. You know that the beginning is the one playing thru ff7 and the second is the one in winamp... Just look at my volume mixer.

[Armorvil]

You don't need to redownload it. Open FF7Music, and select Configure. Then, in the Setup tab, in Input Plugin, select your in_psf.dll. In Output plugin, select out_wave.dll.

In the Files tab, you should have a PSF profile. The replacement music files should be there, hopefully. At the bottom of this window, select the right path, for FF7music to find the PSF music files. Then you can Save and exit - I don't think I forgot anything important.

EDIT : Oh, and one last thing : you do know that you need to launch FFVII using the "Run FFVII" button in FF7Music, right ?

[jeffdamann]

Yeah Ive known all that, and now the thing wont even work after redownlaod, yes I set it up correctly like 4 times. Gonna try more later as right now its starting to bug me(been working on it for like an hour.) But I promise there is a difference.

As you can tell by the APPlog. FF7music isnt even trying...

INFO: FF7/FF8 OpenGL driver version 0.7.5b
INFO: Auto-detected version: FF7 1.02 US English
INFO: FFMpeg movie player plugin loaded
INFO: FFMpeg version SVN-r21874, Copyright (c) 2000-2009 Fabrice Bellard, et al.
INFO: FF7Music helper plugin loaded
INFO: ATI Technologies Inc. ATI Radeon HD 5700 Series 3.2.9756 Compatibility Profile Context
INFO: OpenGL 2.0 support detected
INFO: Found swap_control extension
INFO: Original resolution 640x480, window size 960x540, output resolution 960x540, internal resolution 1280x960
INFO: FBO extension detected, using fast scaling/postprocessing path
INFO: Fragment shader(s) linked, vertex shader(s) linked.
WARNING: warning(#276) Symbol 'fb_texture' usage doesn't match between two stages
WARNING: warning(#276) Symbol 'fb_texture' usage doesn't match between two stages
 
LOCK UNLOCK TEST
MATRIX INITIALIZE
INITIALIZE DD/D3D END
initializing sound...
creating dsound primary buffer
reading audio file
loading static sounds
sound initialized
set music volume: 127
set music volume: 127
Entering MAIN
Exiting MAIN
START OF CREDITS!!!
INFO: C:\Program Files (x86)\Square Soft, Inc\Final Fantasy VII\movies\eidoslogo.avi; rawvideo/null 364x353, 15.000000 FPS, duration: 0.066667, frames: 1
INFO: C:\Program Files (x86)\Square Soft, Inc\Final Fantasy VII\movies\sqlogo.avi; mpeg4/mp3 640x480, 15.000000 FPS, duration: 247.466667, frames: 3712
set music volume trans: 127->0, step=60
END OF CREDITS!!!
Entering MAIN
set music volume: 127
Exiting MAIN
START OF MENU SYSTEM!!!
INFO: 24-bit PNG loaded (C:\Program Files (x86)\Square Soft, Inc.\Final Fantasy VII\/textures/avatar/cloud_00.png); this is slow, please convert to 32-bit
INFO: 24-bit PNG loaded (C:\Program Files (x86)\Square Soft, Inc.\Final Fantasy VII\/textures/Avatar/barre_00.png); this is slow, please convert to 32-bit
INFO: 24-bit PNG loaded (C:\Program Files (x86)\Square Soft, Inc.\Final Fantasy VII\/textures/avatar/tifa_00.png); this is slow, please convert to 32-bit
INFO: 24-bit PNG loaded (C:\Program Files (x86)\Square Soft, Inc.\Final Fantasy VII\/textures/Avatar/earith_00.png); this is slow, please convert to 32-bit
INFO: 24-bit PNG loaded (C:\Program Files (x86)\Square Soft, Inc.\Final Fantasy VII\/textures/Avatar/red_00.png); this is slow, please convert to 32-bit
INFO: 24-bit PNG loaded (C:\Program Files (x86)\Square Soft, Inc.\Final Fantasy VII\/textures/Avatar/yufi_00.png); this is slow, please convert to 32-bit
INFO: 24-bit PNG loaded (C:\Program Files (x86)\Square Soft, Inc.\Final Fantasy VII\/textures/Avatar/ketc_00.png); this is slow, please convert to 32-bit
INFO: 24-bit PNG loaded (C:\Program Files (x86)\Square Soft, Inc.\Final Fantasy VII\/textures/Avatar/bins_00.png); this is slow, please convert to 32-bit
INFO: 24-bit PNG loaded (C:\Program Files (x86)\Square Soft, Inc.\Final Fantasy VII\/textures/Avatar/cido_00.png); this is slow, please convert to 32-bit
INFO: 24-bit PNG loaded (C:\Program Files (x86)\Square Soft, Inc.\Final Fantasy VII\/textures/WMRP/menu/buster_00.png); this is slow, please convert to 32-bit
END OF MENU SYSTEM!!!
Entering MAIN
Exiting MAIN
Field Start
Field Quit
Entering MAIN
Exiting MAIN
Entering FRAME_INITIALIZE SWIRL
Exitting FRAME_INITIALIZE SWIRL
Swirl sound_effect1
stop_sound
End of Swirl sound_effect1
Entering FRAME_QUIT SWIRL
Exitting FRAME_QUIT SWIRL
Entering MAIN
Exiting MAIN
[BATTLE] Entering FRAME_INITIALIZE
[BATTLE] Scene# 322
[BATTLE] Exitting FRAME_INITIALIZE
INFO: 24-bit PNG loaded (C:\Program Files (x86)\Square Soft, Inc.\Final Fantasy VII\/textures/Spells/seffect/seffect1_00.png); this is slow, please convert to 32-bit
INFO: 24-bit PNG loaded (C:\Program Files (x86)\Square Soft, Inc.\Final Fantasy VII\/textures/Limit/limit/jo_b03_00.png); this is slow, please convert to 32-bit
INFO: 24-bit PNG loaded (C:\Program Files (x86)\Square Soft, Inc.\Final Fantasy VII\/textures/Spells/eskill/jo_b04_00.png); this is slow, please convert to 32-bit
INFO: 24-bit PNG loaded (C:\Program Files (x86)\Square Soft, Inc.\Final Fantasy VII\/textures/tmp_00.png); this is slow, please convert to 32-bit
WM_CLOSE
[BATTLE] Entering FRAME_QUIT
[BATTLE] endof battle.
[BATTLE] Exitting FRAME_QUIT
Field Quit
UNINITIALIZE DD
ERROR: unhandled exception

[InuRa]

In the end, all of this resumes to: "there is a plugin that is able to and play read the music perfectly for Winamp, isn't it possible to do something similar to FF7 so it can replace that silly default midi driver completely?"
'cause it all comes down to fix the music.

[obesebear]

Post one where you go through midi, then ff7music psf, then winamp psf.    To me it sounds like that first part is the midis playing, not the psf i'm used to hearing using ff7 music.

[jeffdamann]

Will do, and Ill make an edit here for the link, gimme an hour.

[InuRa]

No news on this topic? I've been waiting for new ways and ideas to fix the game music instead of replacing it with external mp3 files which is far from an ideal solution.

[jeffdamann]

I'd replace thge mp3's(fan made) with the psf's, those are the original PSX music files. They are included with ffmusic. My problem is that now for some reason ff music REFUSES to work, even on a fresh install....so its midi for me I guess!

[Covarr]

jefdamann, post the contents of your ff7_opengl.cfg from Aali's custom graphics driver. I suspect at least part of the problem is there.

[jeffdamann]

I have the ff7 music plugin enabled in my opengl.cfg if thats what you mean

[Covarr]

Hmm. If that's the case, then even the midi music shouldn't be playing. O_o

[jeffdamann]

whne its enabled I have no music
I have do disable for the midi.
FF7music has always worked, the music may have been off, but it always worked. Now it wont even work with a fresh FF install OR  a fresh ff7music...its strange

Just tried more to make it work. When using ff7music to open ff7, I get NO sound, not from fmv's, not from cursor movement, anything... NO SOUND... I have no idea why this is happening...
Without ff7music on or the plugin enabled I get crappy midi sound and all effects and fmvs play.

LMAO i had the psf option set to custom not psf..... Its working fine now!

[Covarr]

Okay, one last thing I'll suggest: Run ff7.exe in Windows 98 compatibility mode, and if you're using Windows Vista or 7, run FF7Music.exe in Windows XP SP2 compatibility mode.

[Hellbringer616]

Okay, one last thing I'll suggest: Run ff7.exe in Windows 98 compatibility mode, and if you're using Windows Vista or 7, run FF7Music.exe in Windows XP SP2 compatibility mode.

If i'm not mistaken thats required in Vista/7
Is for me anyway, Else FF7Music doesn't load. Also has to be run as Admin

[Covarr]

Well, that's how I say to do it in my tutorial, but a lot of people either don't know about it, or don't read it, or miss steps (you wouldn't believe how often people simply overlook a step). Actually, I'm considering updating it with screenshots, that should probably help quite a bit, particularly for people with more of a visual thinking style and less of a verbal thinking style.

[jeffdamann]

BTW I have windows 7 ultimate and ff7music runs fine for me. No run as admin or run in compatibility mode needed

[Hellbringer616]

BTW I have windows 7 ultimate and ff7music runs fine for me. No run as admin or run in compatibility mode needed

Probably not working at all then. As it has to be run as admin to make changes to file locations and other settings