Author Topic: Your political views!  (Read 33739 times)

obesebear

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Re: Your political views!
« Reply #50 on: 2010-06-13 02:40:23 »
Total anarchy is the best way to live.  Prove me wrong.

ScottMcTony

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Re: Your political views!
« Reply #51 on: 2010-06-13 02:47:44 »
Well, historically speaking, it's always worked far far better than communism, 100% of the time.

The Seer of Shadows

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Re: Your political views!
« Reply #52 on: 2010-06-13 09:43:49 »
Really, if we want balance in this world, it would be best if there was absolutely no life at all.

Bosola

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Re: Your political views!
« Reply #53 on: 2010-06-13 16:18:22 »

I'll treat it with the amount of subtlety that Marxists use when analysing human society and the complex relationships between the individuals who make up said society. ;)

Firstly, be aware that Marx inherited his teleology from Hegel, who in turn nicked it from Kant. Be aware that it's only since the poststructuralists (birthed by those continental philosophers who, oddly enough, you seem to hold in contempt - no doubt thanks to the smelly Oxonian phil. dept ;) ) that we've had our modern distaste of 'Grand Narratives'. Don't assume that either Continental philosophy or postmodernism are friends of Marxism.

Also, don't forget that Marx's contemporaries on the right were just as wont to dabble with things like manifest destiny, and post-Enlightenment theories of 'Progression'. Before them, of course, Christianity offered the most common 'arching narrative'. Afterwards, it was a matter of degeneration theory. Even in the post-Darwin period, which had been shook up by ol' Charles' insistence on randomness rather than planning, groups continuously sought to fill the teleological void with 'Grand Narratives' like Fascism, that once again offered a system of meaning that granted every action some connection to the Struggle of the Race. It's only relatively recently that we've come to appreciate the limitations of 'totalization'. Separate Marxism from context.

...And Marxism from marxism. As it happens, many of today's readers of Marx regard him as clued up when analyzing the mechanics of his society (no-one beforehand had really articulated what exchange mechanisms were), but less well-equipped to offer alternatives.

It's a nice idea, yours, and it's attractive, but I haven't yet seen you integrate it with evidence. In what ways in particular did the failings of Grand Narratives precipitate the particular failings of managed economy?

As we're chastising people for dealing with abstractions, let's return to concretes. Do you, for instance, believe that there should be such things as jobseekers' allowance? And can we really justify inaction - inaction in real, concrete, dangerous and vitally important matters - on the basis of the occasional flaws of reason and foresight?

Bosola

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Re: Your political views!
« Reply #54 on: 2010-06-13 16:23:12 »
Quote
There was once a burning building full of people, and two firemen arrived to try to rescue everyone. One of the firemen was a capitalist/classical liberal/democrat/whatever philosophy I'm supposed to be defending, and the other was a socialist/communist/I don't care any more. However, it soon became apparent that rescuing everyone would be impossible.

The first fireman said:

"We can't save everyone; some people will have to die. But we can save some! Let's go in there and save as many as we can, even if it means some injustices will result!"

The second firemen said:

"No! Equality is what's most important! It's not fair that some people get to live and some people have to die. Why should some people get life whilst others lose out? Unless everyone can be saved, no-one should be saved! Everyone must die!"

...Insert similar stupid story about Conservative only saving precious possessions, or only those who can afford on the basis this promotes action and prevents idleness. It's clear this isn't going to go anywhere. If you understand my post, fine. If not, I don't think you're going to 'get' it. I don't particularly want to fall out, so I'm just going to leave things at that.

Kudistos Megistos

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Re: Your political views!
« Reply #55 on: 2010-06-13 18:56:09 »
Firstly, be aware that Marx inherited his teleology from Hegel, who in turn nicked it from Kant. Be aware that it's only since the poststructuralists ...that we've had our modern distaste of 'Grand Narratives'. Don't assume that either Continental philosophy or postmodernism are friends of Marxism.

Not all of them, of course. But the reason why continental philosophy is more of a friend to Marx than the Anglo-American kind is that the former has far more rationalists amongst its ranks and therefore far more people with very ambitious opinions about what can be known a priori.

(birthed by those continental philosophers who, oddly enough, you seem to hold in contempt - no doubt thanks to the smelly Oxonian phil. dept ;) )

It's true; nearly all of the philosophers on our syllabi are Anglo-American analytical types ;D

Also, when I went to an Oxford open day, one of the tutors I spoke to (Robin Lane Fox, IIRC) warned us against studying philosophy at Cambridge. Apparently, Cambridge teaches students to defend a belief or particular philosopher to the death rather than look at the strengths and weaknesses of every argument. No, really, that's what he said.  :D

Also, don't forget that Marx's contemporaries on the right were just as wont to dabble with things like manifest destiny, and post-Enlightenment theories of 'Progression'. Before them, of course, Christianity offered the most common 'arching narrative'. Afterwards, it was a matter of degeneration theory. Even in the post-Darwin period, which had been shook up by ol' Charles' insistence on randomness rather than planning, groups continuously sought to fill the teleological void with 'Grand Narratives' like Fascism, that once again offered a system of meaning that granted every action some connection to the Struggle of the Race.

That's a tu quoque. Or rather, ill quoque. Marxism doesn't score any points or evade any criticism because other people have made the same mistakes

As it happens, many of today's readers of Marx regard him as clued up when analyzing the mechanics of his society (no-one beforehand had really articulated what exchange mechanisms were), but less well-equipped to offer alternatives.

So, if we agree then why are we arguing? ;D

It's a nice idea, yours, and it's attractive, but I haven't yet seen you integrate it with evidence. In what ways in particular did the failings of Grand Narratives precipitate the particular failings of managed economy?

The failings of Grand Narratives are actually the ways of thinking that are correlated with them. It's hard to say whether these ways of thinking are what lead people to think in terms of Grand Narratives or vice versa; they certainly reinforce each other. The most important, I think, is overestimating the importance of certain things. A grand narrative based around the idea of a workers struggle or inequality or unfairness will see these as the only things that matter. This tendency leads, of course, to steamrollering over other things that matter because they're getting in the way of the great project and overly goal-orientated ways of thinking that see the end as being justified by any means. What has this led to when people have tried to put their ideas into practice? This way of thinking, I'm sure, is what led to communist governments around the world killing millions of aristocrats/intellectuals/whoever they considered to be the enemies of the "people". It's also what has led communist governments to be oppressive. Since the great project is more important than freedom, freedom has to be stopped whenever it gets in the way.

As we're chastising people for dealing with abstractions, let's return to concretes. Do you, for instance, believe that there should be such things as jobseekers' allowance? And can we really justify inaction - inaction in real, concrete, dangerous and vitally important matters - on the basis of the occasional flaws of reason and foresight?

Of course I support jobseekers' allowance. Without it, people would starve and they would start stealing from those who have earned their money! :D

I doubt that there are many people on the economic right who are completely opposed to all forms of welfare. The problem is that jobseekers' allowance often turns into "can't be bothered" allowance. However much you may want to deny it, there are plenty of people who are perfectly happy living off welfare; as a Northerner, I can confirm that guests on Jeremy Kyle show are representative of a larger proportion of the British population than most people would like to believe.

...Insert similar stupid story about Conservative only saving precious possessions, or only those who can afford on the basis this promotes action and prevents idleness.

Hey, at least they're saving something!

It's clear this isn't going to go anywhere. If you understand my post, fine. If not, I don't think you're going to 'get' it. I don't particularly want to fall out, so I'm just going to leave things at that.

I'm not going to "get" it because there's nothing to "get". All the far left does is point out a few problems that we all know exist (apparently under the belief that we, like they, think our political philosophy is perfect and will lead to a utopian society of justice and fairness), exaggerate those problems whilst ignoring the positives, then throw the baby out with the bathwater and propose a system that they think is without the flaws they have identified in the current one, not caring that for every problem they have solved they have created another ten.

You can accuse me of not being able to understand you or whatever (implying that not appreciating Marxism or marxism or marxianism means that it is I, not the idea, that is flawed), but I'll keep on saying that it's hideously flawed until it has been shown capable of actually producing a society anywhere near as close to its ideal as the ones that our current "corrupt" way of thinking has produced.

Hmmm, didn't Marx say that good philosophies are the ones that actually change the world rather than the ones that just produce nice ideas?

Bosola

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Re: Your political views!
« Reply #56 on: 2010-06-13 19:27:53 »
Also, when I went to an Oxford open day, one of the tutors I spoke to (Robin Lane Fox, IIRC) warned us against studying philosophy at Cambridge. Apparently, Cambridge teaches students to defend a belief or particular philosopher to the death rather than look at the strengths and weaknesses of every argument. No, really, that's what he said.  :D

NO U

Of course I support jobseekers' allowance. Without it, people would starve and they would start stealing from those who have earned their money! :D

I doubt that there are many people on the economic right who are completely opposed to all forms of welfare. The problem is that jobseekers' allowance often turns into "can't be bothered" allowance.

Too bad with my 2:1 (near-first) I couldn't get a job for nine months. And even now, it's just a crap admin role. The situation just isn't as simple as you suggest.


I'm not going to "get" it because there's nothing to "get". All the far left does...

I didn't say I was a Marxist. Just that my thoughts on 'symbolic order' have more akin to 'marxist' thought than any other branch of ideas.

Quote
is point out a few problems that we all know exist (apparently under the belief that we, like they, think our political philosophy is perfect and will lead to a utopian society of justice and fairness), exaggerate those problems whilst ignoring the positives, then throw the baby out with the bathwater and propose a system that they think is without the flaws they have identified in the current one, not caring that for every problem they have solved they have created another ten.

Where have I done that? I've already suggested that whatever the 'symbolic order', it'll have irresolvable flaws. I then went on to suggest that these flaws are what yield the 'issues' of any age - and that Marxist replacements would have exactly the same problems. The difference is one of 'Ethics' vs 'government'. What sort of government am I keen on? Probably one reluctant to use state machinery, and that tried to 'harness' the private sector where possible. Not unlike what we've had for fifteen years, and will (probably) keep on having for another ten or twenty.

Also, don't forget that it's some British conservatives who talk about the 'art of the possible'. The idea that the Right is made up exclusively of rugged pragmatists is just plain silly. You're forgetting about the 'Paternalists', for a start.

Hmmm, didn't Marx say that good philosophies are the ones that actually change the world rather than the ones that just produce nice ideas?

Pretty combative. I really don't want to fall out with you - you're a good member, and you make good contributions. And my ForumSense suggests that threads like these inevitably produce more heat than light.

Lion

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Re: Your political views!
« Reply #57 on: 2010-06-13 20:11:38 »
first things first, try separating the idea from the execution. i'm merely saying the idea was not a bad one, not that communism is good or turned out alright.

This really is hilarious. The main point I tend to make is that communism suffers when the idea gets executed. And that is the problem with with idea. Or one of the problems. Communism and all other "big ideas" fail to take into account that things don't always go to plan and fails to take into account that one can not judge a system as good or bad or know whether it will be successful or unsuccessful until it has been put into practice. The idea is wildly over-ambitious and based on a gross simplification of human society and a childish insistence that everything be perfect. Not accounting for the separation between idea and execution is a flaw in the idea

Well, if you read my original posts, i said the idea behind communism is a good one. and on the contrary, i can claim a childish ignorance and stubbornness (insistent belief that communism is bad; negative connotation; propaganda?) because without actually experiencing the political system you know just as little. Also your knock on Marx is that he has a grand scheme for the world that he assumes automatically works because he thinks he is some sort of genius. But unless you know an equal amount or more, can you say that Marxism is a bad idea. Sure he might not know everything, but you would have to have a sufficient amount of understanding to claim a political system doesn't work just as much as he would need the understanding to claim a political system does work. Russian Communism is a tainted form of Marxism. I'm pretty sure the point of socialism was that everyone owned everything, not the government owning everything.

And no it's not. Execution and Idea are two different concepts. My idea might be to build a house. Red brick 5 bedroom and 3 bath. Now if some idiot were to copy my plans (Lenin) and build his own house, but instead build marble 5 bed 3 bath, my idea is still the same idea (red brick 5 bed 3 bath), Lenin just didn't do it the way it was planned. Now if I was to follow through with my idea (hypothetically), I can still build my original red brick house. As planned. Good ideas can have bad execution and still be good ideas. You are trying to use a technicality or something.

My point --> Socialism was badly executed the FIRST time. and each and every other version of socialism is based off Russian communism. They are just different faces of the same monster. In an isolated country, country X, socialism could hypothetically be executed quite well.
Also as to Marx not having a clue about the world, and sitting in his arm chair and all that. I say look at democracy. Look at the primarily white aristocratic males who run society. I think they are equally limited in scope, not understanding poverty the way an orphan in the slums of New York or the ghettos of Louisiana. How does a rich white man understand what may be going through the youth populations mind? Or perhaps a poverty stricken girl who lost her parents? I think that is an unfair knock on socialism. Does it matter who, where and how the idea was conceived but whether it is a good one or not?

Yes, look at democracy. It isn't perfect is it? Now look at communism. Democracy suddenly seems a lot better when the two are compared. You see, this is related to the idea of far left philosophies being unrealistic and over-ambitious. They think that we can make a perfect society with no injustice, and whenever there is any injustice created by a system they say that the system must be destroyed. But what if there is no perfect system? What if we have to compromise and go with the one that creates the least injustice?
I don't really know how many times i'd have to say this, but idea =/= execution. socialism looks bad because the only version of socialism you've seen are incarnations of Russian communism. I already agree that communism is bad. You're trying to compare 1 example that turned out badly, to Euro-American democracies. Imagine if the only version of democracy you had was that of Zimbabwe. Hyperinflation, viciousness, terrorism, violence, corruption, AIDS, refugees. You name it, they have it. You are limited in view to what you've seen. Communism is the Zimbabwe of Socialism. It wasn't meant to turn out like that. You are automatically assuming every version of Socialism is bad because you've seen a couple. It doesn't work like that. My ex had purple highlights in her blonde hair. If I were to look at her, could I assume that everyone had purple hair? You are myopic in your view until you've had a lot more experience than you have. Who are you to sit in your armchair and claim you know everything about history, by saying Marxism is a bad idea? Russian Communism = Bad. A fair representation of Socialism I've yet to see.

also, i don't think you can judge an entire political ideology by one or two examples especially since communist russia pretty much created modern day communism and are essentially just one example of communism.

When was I just using one example? Look at China, North Korea, Vietnam, Burma, Poland, Czechoslovakia, Hungary, Romania, Yugoslavia, Bulgaria, Cuba and god knows how many other countries in which communism has lead to poverty and oppression and has totally failed in its goal, in most cases either being overthrown or silently dismantled. Has there ever been any communist state that has been even moderately successful? Capitalism hasn't always produced thriving, prosperous meritocratic democracies, but it has at least succeeded a few times.

They're all incarnations of Russian Communism. Once the world saw Russian Communism the truth is, it influenced them and pulled them away from traditionalist Marxist philosophy. There's a reason socialism is differentiated from Communism.

I'm in a storytelling mood right now, so I'll tell you a story.

There was once a burning building full of people, and two firemen arrived to try to rescue everyone. One of the firemen was a capitalist/classical liberal/democrat/whatever philosophy I'm supposed to be defending, and the other was a socialist/communist/I don't care any more. However, it soon became apparent that rescuing everyone would be impossible.

The first fireman said:

"We can't save everyone; some people will have to die. But we can save some! Let's go in there and save as many as we can, even if it means some injustices will result!"

The second firemen said:

"No! Equality is what's most important! It's not fair that some people get to live and some people have to die. Why should some people get life whilst others lose out? Unless everyone can be saved, no-one should be saved! Everyone must die!"

Then a giant tentacle monster came and raped both of them. Then it raped the charred corpses of everyone inside. The end. (if you couldn't tell, it's 3:00 where I live and I'm tired ;D)
[/quote]

Jeez, I'll use a real-life example (especially since anyone can write pointlessly while supporting their beliefs, mein kampf anyone?). 12% of the population in the US live below the poverty line. Idk if this is the most recent statistic, or if it's even correct. But 12% of 300million people is 36million people, 6 times that of the Holocaust. 80% of Liberia is in poverty. Zimbabwe is up there as well. I'm going to say that you completely ignore those millions and millions of people dying from AIDS, or hunger while commenting that socialism is evil. Both systems have their drawbacks, but I doubt poverty or hunger would exist in a legitimate version of socialism since everyone has an equal share of everything (and not like idiot stalin where they starve everyone to death). I feel like I'm attacking democracy too much, but it's because i'm trying to take democracy of its throne of gold. It's a good idea, but doesn't mean that every idea compared to democracy is automatically bad. these are two unique systems and as you've seen with communism it also has its drawbacks. I've yet to see a fair representation, and when and if we do, we'll see how Socialism actually plays out.



Try and look past Russian Communism's failure. There is a difference between Russian Communism and its incarnations (Cuba, China, whatever) and Socialism the way Marx envisioned it. I don't believe in Communism just as much as you don't believe in it. Just keep an open-mind. It's better to look at the world and see what could be, than to see what it isn't.

EDIT: Also the ultimate irony is, Lenins Communist party gained control of Russia through a democratic process.
« Last Edit: 2010-06-13 20:20:05 by OutFoxxed »

Kudistos Megistos

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Re: Your political views!
« Reply #58 on: 2010-06-14 13:56:47 »
>implying Zimbabwe is a democracy

>implying Mugabe isn't a hardcore socialist
(hey, I've found an example of socialism in practice that isn't Leninist, and guess what? It's shit!)

>implying that relative poverty is no different from absolute poverty

>implying those "poverty stricken" Americans aren't rich by global standards

>comparing relative poverty to the holocaust




Bosola

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Re: Your political views!
« Reply #59 on: 2010-06-14 17:14:36 »
I don't really think of Zimbabwe as either socialist or communist. Often, when 'oppressed' people have risen up, their wishes are often hijacked by a 'socialist' party that claims to represent them. The racial tensions in Rwanda, for instance, were easily commandeered by a group who claimed only to be 'representing' the poorer and traditionally lower caste Tutsis (sp?). Totalitarian communism ticked the boxes of 'speaking for the underclass' whilst also providing opportunities for an 'iron hand' government.

But, Zimbabwe is still a good example of how managed economies can go badly wrong.
« Last Edit: 2010-06-14 17:16:40 by Bosola »

Lion

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Re: Your political views!
« Reply #60 on: 2010-06-14 17:47:58 »
>implying Zimbabwe is a democracy

>implying Mugabe isn't a hardcore socialist
(hey, I've found an example of socialism in practice that isn't Leninist, and guess what? It's sh*t!)

>implying that relative poverty is no different from absolute poverty

>implying those "poverty stricken" Americans aren't rich by global standards

>comparing relative poverty to the holocaust




I rest my case :]












EDIT: I never meant communism or totalitarianism. Socialism is more of an economic system than a form of government to be honest. So often people confuse Marxism with the hardcore totalitarianism that defined the 20th century. People think Socialism ---> Stalin mass murder + infringed on basic freedoms. Socialism doesn't require that. Sure we've seen communism fail but one failure and the failure of its clones does not mean an economic system automatically sucks. Though I doubt socialism will be given a chance, considering what's happened.


Bosola

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Re: Your political views!
« Reply #61 on: 2010-06-14 18:06:58 »
More importantly, whilst we're here, has anyone ever definitively found the origin of the trollface?

ScottMcTony

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Re: Your political views!
« Reply #62 on: 2010-06-14 18:18:24 »
When did this thread get dumber than a newgrounds thread on religion?
Stop being dumb everyone, especially ScottMcTony you gad dam.
Also OutFoxxed you're starting to come off like someone who makes a concentrated effort to fail to comprehend anything someone who disagrees with you is saying.

Kudistos Megistos

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Re: Your political views!
« Reply #63 on: 2010-06-14 18:47:29 »
More importantly, whilst we're here, has anyone ever definitively found the origin of the trollface?

http://encyclopediadramatica.com/Trollface#Origins

Encyclopedia Dramatica is always right

Lion

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Re: Your political views!
« Reply #64 on: 2010-06-14 18:56:39 »
When did this thread get dumber than a newgrounds thread on religion?
Stop being dumb everyone, especially ScottMcTony you gad dam.
Also OutFoxxed you're starting to come off like someone who makes a concentrated effort to fail to comprehend anything someone who disagrees with you is saying.
There's a difference between communism and socialism. There's a difference between the idea and the actual outcome. Socialism is basically a world where everyone shares everything (so i don't understand how it's evil). Try and keep an open mind and understand what I'm saying, . because the idea behind communism is marxism where people collectively own the industries. It's a good idea (unless you have a problem with sharing). And I do understand what kudistos is saying, but she's telling me flaws in the execution of communism, which is irrelevant to my point. does it matter that communism turned out to be evil? no. does it matter that it failed? no. you know why? cause there is a difference between theory (socialism) and the actual execution (communism). if you noticed i talked about marxism and socialism, even specifically using those words instead of communism. socialism is an economic system not a political system(like communism). I'm being ignorant because people were talking about something irrelevant? perhaps you don't understand that socialism does not entail slavery or mass murder. If you had said socialism is a bad idea b/c of the lower quality products due to a lack of competition, I might've agreed. but what purpose does "communism enslaves people" do when talking about socialism? socialism is an economic system where the population owns the industrial aspects of the country. so why talk about how communism is evil? saying the sky is blue has just as much relevance. you can be socialist and democratic. political system =/= economic system. socialism =/= communism.
please do your research before being an idiot......

i've even made an effort to make sure people understood i was talking about socialism and marxism. i tried not to say communism and if you read my posts they aren't talking about socialism.


difference between socialism and communism:
http://www.romm.org/soc_com.html
http://www.wisegeek.com/what-is-the-difference-between-socialism-and-communism.htm

in fact if you read the first posts in this thread, they talk about economic regulation. i was not talking about communism at all. when i said the idea behind communism, i meant socialism.

and why are you referring to yourself in the third person?
« Last Edit: 2010-06-14 19:21:00 by OutFoxxed »

Kudistos Megistos

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Re: Your political views!
« Reply #65 on: 2010-06-14 19:41:17 »
And I do understand what kudistos is saying, but she's telling me

>she

I've got some bad news for you

Also, what ScottMcTony said about you making a concentrated effort to fail to comprehend anything someone who disagrees with you is saying is actually true. Let's take your claim that I'm separating the idea from the execution when it comes to socialism or communism or whatever: I've explained a million times that the horrific failures in execution imply a flaw in the idea itself, as well as actually noting other problems with the idea, but you continue to claim that I haven't.

It's pretty obvious that you're either trolling or you're so dyed-in-the-wool that socialism is a religion to you, since you are failing to even recognise the criticisms we are making, let alone refute to them. I can make a post wherein I address problems with the idea of socialism and you apparently don't even see it, since you'll claim, right after I wrote the post, that I didn't say the things I said. I know I said them; I typed the post minutes beforehand, so don't tell me that I didn't say what I know I said. All of the points you are saying that we haven't addressed have actually been addressed many times, so I doubt there's any point in us trying to address them again. :|

obesebear

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Re: Your political views!
« Reply #66 on: 2010-06-14 20:13:39 »
And I do understand what kudistos is saying, but she's telling me

>she

I've got some bad news for you
Pssst....
 

Kudistos Megistos

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Re: Your political views!
« Reply #67 on: 2010-06-14 20:14:27 »
I'm 798 years old as well :D

And I'm under your bed; watch out! ;D

Bosola

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Re: Your political views!
« Reply #68 on: 2010-06-14 20:16:18 »
At any rate, I think what's most important in this is that everyone agrees Oxford University sux compared to the GLORIOUS CANTAB MASTER RACE.

Kudistos Megistos

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Re: Your political views!
« Reply #69 on: 2010-06-14 20:17:56 »
At any rate, I think what's most important in this is that everyone agrees Oxford University sux compared to the GLORIOUS CANTAB MASTER RACE.

The newspaper that all good leftists read seems to disagree! ;D

http://www.guardian.co.uk/education/table/2010/jun/04/university-league-table

ScottMcTony

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Re: Your political views!
« Reply #70 on: 2010-06-14 20:22:30 »
When did this thread get dumber than a newgrounds thread on religion?
Stop being dumb everyone, especially ScottMcTony you gad dam.
Also OutFoxxed you're starting to come off like someone who makes a concentrated effort to fail to comprehend anything someone who disagrees with you is saying.
There's a difference between communism and socialism. There's a difference between the idea and the actual outcome. Socialism is basically a world where everyone shares everything
No, socialism is a world where everyone is forced to share everything, and understands that this will be the case should they create anything. What you're suggesting is a hypothetical species that would naturally behave like a Utopian socialist society even in a circumstance of anarchy. And hey, maybe such a hypothetical species would be pretty functional, I certainly don't think these things, I will call them Ogloobs, are terrible evil creatures. But that is hardly the idea behind socialism.

Decayrate

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Re: Your political views!
« Reply #71 on: 2010-06-14 20:58:04 »


I see myself little bit more liberal then the results

when security trumps freedom, it's not freedom

I live in Norway the reportably best country in world to live in (Ha fair chance)  our government Norwegian Labour Party, Socialist Left Party and Centre Party are so bureaucratic that the small established businesses (1-10 employees) are raped with taxes that makes small businesses not thrive
and seriously it's not the Large corporate firms like Statoil(hydro+statoil) that bring in the majority of the income it's the small businesses.

But when the risk are so high when starting your own company in norway, that it may lead to your own personal bankruptcy.

If this continues, my generation must work too their 80's.
50% of the people that work in norway are hired by the government, when our elders retire it will ruin our economy.

don't get me started on the schoolsystem, healthsystem, eldercare etc.
Norway is a play for the scenery, we are trying to be the best in every aspect but fails miserably.
our primeminister Jens(Liar Jens) Stoltenberg are so horny for a spot in the United Nations, Waves money around to other countries.. 1billion dollars to stop excessive tree logging in Malaysia,

The Norwegian Labor Party has been in the government for 50 consecutive years out of 65 years after WWII. Our roads are declining, they are worse than the poorest countries in Europe, our infrastructure are declining...

We live fairly well, have loads of money, but the money are spent so wrong, it will be a separate field in economics in Norway when our oil has run out, that takes on how bad we spent our money.....

« Last Edit: 2010-06-14 22:17:28 by MaZtErBlAzTeR »

Lion

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Re: Your political views!
« Reply #72 on: 2010-06-14 21:31:11 »
And I do understand what kudistos is saying, but she's telling me

>she

I've got some bad news for you

Also, what ScottMcTony said about you making a concentrated effort to fail to comprehend anything someone who disagrees with you is saying is actually true. Let's take your claim that I'm separating the idea from the execution when it comes to socialism or communism or whatever: I've explained a million times that the horrific failures in execution imply a flaw in the idea itself, as well as actually noting other problems with the idea, but you continue to claim that I haven't.

It's pretty obvious that you're either trolling or you're so dyed-in-the-wool that socialism is a religion to you, since you are failing to even recognise the criticisms we are making, let alone refute to them. I can make a post wherein I address problems with the idea of socialism and you apparently don't even see it, since you'll claim, right after I wrote the post, that I didn't say the things I said. I know I said them; I typed the post minutes beforehand, so don't tell me that I didn't say what I know I said. All of the points you are saying that we haven't addressed have actually been addressed many times, so I doubt there's any point in us trying to address them again. :|

i've explained many times, that execution is separated from an idea. socialism is a theory, and people change it to their wishes. if i build a red house, Lenin can build a blue house based off my plans, he would execute it wrong, but the idea would remain the same. Execution =/= idea. Especially since I said it originally, and I think I know what I meant when I said the idea behind communism is a good one. I didn't mean execution. And not only that, you're making your argument on a technicality?

socialism has many shapes and forms. that can be executed differently. Lenin might make a blue house, Stalkin could build a red house, Trotsky could make his pink for all I care. They are versions of Socialism. Sure Russian Communism failed doesn't mean all Socialism will fail. Socialism can be approached in different ways. In fact there's even democratic socialism. I doubt there would be too much infringement on ones rights with democratic socialism.

i do read them (your responses). but you're attacking communism, the execution of socialism, etc etc. Socialism is an economic system. And the idea behind it is just sharing and equality. Or forced sharing as Scott McTony says.

I can also say you guys are closeminded, dyed in the wool, mindless followers of the herd, for disagreeing with me (same sh*t really).... attack the logic not the person.

When did this thread get dumber than a newgrounds thread on religion?
Stop being dumb everyone, especially ScottMcTony you gad dam.
Also OutFoxxed you're starting to come off like someone who makes a concentrated effort to fail to comprehend anything someone who disagrees with you is saying.
There's a difference between communism and socialism. There's a difference between the idea and the actual outcome. Socialism is basically a world where everyone shares everything
No, socialism is a world where everyone is forced to share everything, and understands that this will be the case should they create anything. What you're suggesting is a hypothetical species that would naturally behave like a Utopian socialist society even in a circumstance of anarchy. And hey, maybe such a hypothetical species would be pretty functional, I certainly don't think these things, I will call them Ogloobs, are terrible evil creatures. But that is hardly the idea behind socialism.

The idea behind socialism is a world where everyone is equal and shares. that's the concept behind it. While in actual practice you are forced to share, you have communism, you have lower quality products, etc etc. And honestly? Is there anything wrong with everyone having the same amount of wealth? That is the idea behind socialism. Everyone has the same amount of money. I don't know how you are going to tell me it's a bad thing, and tell me i'm being ignorant or stubborn. I just don't think any of your arguments are good enough to convince me that socialism is as evil as you guys say it is.

I guess you are entitled to your opinion. It really depends; are you willing to trade away some of your rights for equality and a better of standard of living (in theory....) or perhaps you believe that human rights are the penultimate possession one can own. The truth is, arguing for socialism and against socialism is like arguing on whether GW Bush was right for taking away our right to privacy for increased security. You can disagree, but I don't see how you can tell me I'm wrong (especially since this is an opinion). It really comes down to this, equality (perhaps not executed as well as it could be) or liberty? Two golden ideals, can you really say which is better than the other? You can say which one you prefer, but not which is better.

Also, to be honest, I would not want to be socialist. I have no problem with it, it's interesting to me, but as an aspiring doctor I would be an idiot to refuse a capitalistic society which would benefit me so much. I'm just trying to get you to understand my actual preferences. For example, I am an atheist, I think religious is stupid, but I have no reason to condemn it. I would not go for socialism either. But I have no reason to hate it (communism is another story). I like to keep an open-mind.
« Last Edit: 2010-06-14 21:40:35 by OutFoxxed »

Kudistos Megistos

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Re: Your political views!
« Reply #73 on: 2010-06-14 21:49:42 »
Repeating the same thing over and over again

All of the points you are saying that we haven't addressed have actually been addressed many times, so I doubt there's any point in us trying to address them again. :|

See, I was right! ;D

ScottMcTony

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Re: Your political views!
« Reply #74 on: 2010-06-14 22:14:28 »
"The idea behind me killing her was that it would improve my life. Free of all the ways she inconvenienced me, I would have greater personal opportunities. I could be happier."
Clearly there is nothing wrong with the idea of killing her.


Scatt, the king of Reducto Ad Absurdum, out.