Author Topic: What Went Wrong?  (Read 37183 times)

DLPB_

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Re: What Went Wrong?
« Reply #50 on: 2012-01-03 01:47:59 »
People who think VII was a decline, are retarded.  It kept to the same formula mostly and enhanced it. It did not do away with NPC, or integral components of what makes a jRPG a jRPG and that is the difference.  Nor does X.  XII did to an extent because the character driven story disappeared and so did intelligent turn based battle.  XIII was the first that I would no longer class as a jrpg.

Ishtaria

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Re: What Went Wrong?
« Reply #51 on: 2012-01-16 12:38:02 »
Exactly right. Look at all of the systems and content from the games previous to VII and it doesn't take long before you see that VII has got all of these but nicely wrapped up in a graphics engine that was innovative for the time and made the game even more compelling to play. VII is a classic jRPG in every way. I think the thing that puts people off it more than anything is its lack of medieval fantasy setting in favour of a steampunk sort of style.

It's hard to find the turning point but I think there's actually been a steady decline since VII in one way or another. Not saying VII was the last great FF and the turning point but none of its successors have been as good due to various reasons. I didn't like the GF system in VIII, I appreciated the innovation but it just didn't gel with me and I also disliked the environment. IX while more "traditional", felt in some way empty. I don't know if by being "traditional" it ended up with less substance, I can't really explain it.

Then we get to X where things started to pick up. Loved the plot and the fantastic battle system, not so keen on the weapon system and the "world map" but there was more than enough stuff in the actual world to offset that. It was an overall good package but in many respects you could see worrying hints of the direction the series was going to take. X-2 deserves no mention. XII I thought was a good game in its own right despite a terribly weak plot. If it had been given a name other than FF (with the common FF aspects also replaced of course) then I think the FF purists might have rated it higher than what they do. By now though you can see that Squenix is really starting to mess and has moved completely away from what the old school of us perceive as a Final Fantasy game.

XIII I haven't played, I don't actually own a current gen console, but I don't even have a desire to play it. I have a true feeling that I'll never play a proper Final Fantasy game ever again, mainly because Squenix' idea of an FF game is completely different to our idea of one.

syntax error

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Re: What Went Wrong?
« Reply #52 on: 2012-01-17 17:14:26 »
FF VII has a more cyberpunk like setting,while FF VI introduced steampunk machines like trains,Alexander.
With VI VII and VIII perhaps they tried a different way,perhaps they wanted to look professional and more for older gamers.
The management wanted to have full 3D on the PSX if not they could have made something looking like Chrono Trigger or Treasure of the Rudras.

Ishtaria

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Re: What Went Wrong?
« Reply #53 on: 2012-01-18 07:46:49 »
D'oh cyberpunk was what I was looking for with VII, not steampunk  ::)

hian

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Re: What Went Wrong?
« Reply #54 on: 2012-01-20 02:16:38 »
Some points worth adding though:

You can blame the old fans for gobbling up sh*t, but I think a larger problem is the new generation of mainstream gamers.
The fact of the matter is that when "games were for nerds", the crowd gaming was smaller I.E potential customers less, and with that comes a larger responsibility on the part of game-developers.
You can't opt for a hit and miss strategy in a niche bussiness - Especially if you consider the cost of production versus the risk of failure.
Nowadays however, everyone and their mums dogs play video-games, and so critical demand is less, and potential customers have risen.

Like with how it's done in all other parts of the media industry, it's more economically feasible to observe the trend of the average and design your product with that in mind.

Since the amount of gamers have risen in total, and the quality-demanding, obsessive gamer type has arguably become a much less important force in the market, games will be made accordingly - Final Fantasy is no different.
The fact of the matter is that you can still go around the internet, and find tons of people that hugely enjoyed the newer installments in the series - pressumably because their standards are lower(or different) compared to the older generation.
A company, thinking in terms of profit, is sure to notice this. Why spend ages, and tons of cash creating a product appealing mainly to a smaller section of the possible consumer base, when you can make a product with less effort that will appeal to the masses anyways?
You see this trend clearly in the music industry - Why should the gaming industry be any different?

Sakaguchi leaving and money issues etc, has surely had some impact, but gaming becoming mainstream, and everything that entails, is probably the biggest issue in my opinion.

Another factor, in terms of Japanese games like FF and MGS, is the Japanese culture and their view of story telling in visual formats.
The fact of the matter is that, despite their tradition of developing great games carried mainly by gameplay, Japanese gaming history has tons of examples of a deep gap between gameplay driven media and story driven media(not saying it's always like this though).

In many ways, the new generations of games focusing on cut-scenes and only partially interactive scenes seem deeply rooted in the "visual game novel" tradition. Many Japanese "gamers" seem simply to be more interested in the story aspect, than the gameplay aspect. In light of that, it's natural to put more focus on this from a developer point of view, if your main objective is to make money, or please the masses.
In that way, the direction of MGS and later FFs are only logical - It's imaginable that a lot of Japanese developers have always wanted to present their stories in this way(more akin to interactive movies, than games), but have been unable to due to technological limitations. If you think FF13 was difficult to endure, imagine if FF7 was presented the same way, but in that era of graphics, and sound.
(This trend is even becoming true for the west to a certain degree as well - Consider the casual gamers approach to gaming)

IMO both these explanations seem more likely in terms of FFs decline, as these explanations branch into the issue with a lot of other titles from Japan(and the rest of the world) that have taken a turn for the worse over the years since the second half of the PS2 era.

Also -
Although I agree in your general assessment of the series, I can't find myself to agree completely with your view on FF12-13.
FF12, while a completely different from earlier titles, was a good game in it's own right(I agree that the story was weak though - Lack of character development, and long stretches between ultimately short and unfullfilling story segments left a lot to be desired).
I imagine that if they had dubbed it "Final Fantasy Tactics : somethingsomething" or "Vagrant Story : somethingsomthing" instead, the difference would make more sense, and less people would have complained about it.

If it wasn't passed off as a part of the main FF series, I'd easily have rated it an 8 or something to that effect. Giving it 7 or less just doesn't make sense when you consider the vast amount of RPGs that are 10 times worse, yet rated in the 5-7 range.

Same can be said for FF13 - Where it fails as an FF game, it shines as an FF interactive movie. Unlike FF12, I have gripes with the gameplay(or rather lack thereof), but not so much the story - I didn't like it personally, but to write it off as bad story-telling IMO is disingenuous to the extreme.
If you look at the FF series over the times, the quality of writing has undeniably become better with the years, regardless of whether we like the character or plots or not. Consider the more sums of money they have to hire professionals to write, edit, and oversee the story, the better it will be in technical terms.
There is a big difference with the totality of a plot, and the way which the plot is presented with dialogue(and or dubs).
If we imagine FF7 made today, for the first time, but fleshed out by the people who do the work on the newer FFs, there would be a large different, and most likely for the better, in its expression. Anyone who says otherwise is either blinded by nostalgia, or has no idea what good writing is to begin with.
There is a big difference been something being technically well written, and something being creatively well written.
A creative product I.E much of what is related to the plot etc will always be something difficult to judge except by the most subjective of standards because everyone have different preferences for how stories should unfold or how characters "should" react in a given circumstance. Many people for instance, jump on any story ending abruptly with the victory of  the villain, and call it bad writing, - which makes no sense whatsoever.
Similarly, one-dimensional characters are instantly branded as bad, yet I've met many people through the course of my life just as stereotypical and flat as your average RPG character - So go figure.

Technical aspects of writing however are much clearer.
The newer FFs(FF12 being the one exception I guess, but it's obvious that they weren't trying to create a story driven game to begin with here) are all, as far as I'm concerned, technically better written than the earlier ones.

I still consider the earlier plots better than the new ones - But they aren't expressed as well. Some of the dialogue in the earlier games, if you read it out aloud, are formulated like sentences you'd expect to find in a book for 4 year olds, or basic grammar books for students of a new language - "I am so drunk now, my head hurts." and stuff to that effect.
That's not good writing.

Personally, I found the cast of FF13 to do the job of resembling actual people much better than say FF8, which arguably had some of the worst character expression in the entire series(not counting anything before 4, and 12) - The only character with the depth to be called believable in FF8, was Laguna.

But again, discussion on those aspects of a game is hardly productive - With the right angle you could probably bombard the sh*t out of any game you'd like, given the time and place.

For the most part, your post was a great read.
« Last Edit: 2012-01-20 02:24:54 by hian »

DLPB_

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Re: What Went Wrong?
« Reply #55 on: 2012-01-20 12:16:43 »
Yeah you are right...  with time you can find more reasons for why things are going the way they are, and pandering to mainstream profits is definitely one of the biggest.  Still, it doesn't help that fanbase accept it as well, they have no incentive to change.

Sakaguchi's Last Odyssey was decent and I believe, Last Story is supposed to be great.  At least that dude makes an effort.
« Last Edit: 2012-01-20 17:23:56 by DLPB »

DLPB_

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Re: What Went Wrong?
« Reply #56 on: 2012-01-20 17:13:11 »
This forum really is a breath of fresh air to other places you know.  The differences couldn't be more obvious.  It is great being surrounded by people who know how to debate a wider point, compared to a bunch of ridiculous fanboys who only know how to post macros.  Kudos to the community of Qhimm.  Seriously.  8)

I also wish people would stop deliberately using the word "linear" to suggest that X was in any way like XIII.  It wasn't.  X was a game with far more to do, far more places to go and did not do away with integral components of jrpg.  The most desperate thing I ever did see was people making excuses for XIII when it first came out by trying to delude people into believing it was "just like X". They still do it now.

XIII had some things that were similar to X, same way a sink has similar features to a bathtub but they are not the same.  One has more depth for a start ;)
« Last Edit: 2012-01-20 17:34:38 by DLPB »

Prince Lex

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Re: What Went Wrong?
« Reply #57 on: 2012-01-20 17:50:59 »
While I agree that X had far more to do, the way the narrative is carried is very similar. To boil it down to it's simplest terms, you can't do anything but progress the story until you hit the Calm Lands/ Zanarkand. Then it opens up a bit. In this respect, it's actually very very similar to XIII, where you can't do anything but progress the story until you hit the Archylte Steppe.

The only real difference in XIII is that you can't go backwards.

DLPB_

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Re: What Went Wrong?
« Reply #58 on: 2012-01-20 17:57:02 »
But XIII doesn't even have any real NPC or towns like Besaid... it is just a literal gauntlet....

Prince Lex

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Re: What Went Wrong?
« Reply #59 on: 2012-01-20 18:01:44 »
While that's true, it's still just as linear. The only thing that takes away slightly from that linearity is to postpone progression of the story to talk to people, and that it occasionally takes effort to actually look for treasure chests. It's all an illusion put there to detract from the linearity, and the problem with the narrative in XIII is that there is no such illusion.

DLPB_

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Re: What Went Wrong?
« Reply #60 on: 2012-01-20 18:21:56 »
The problem I have is that the "linear" argument is just a diversion to the other faults of XIII...  before its release all I heard was "linear".  I didn't realise it was gonna be literally a gauntlet... but I was more bothered with the aspects that weren't mentioned... the incredibly bad pacing, the cutscene checkpoints, the lack of any real towns or diversions or puzzles or minigames or NPC... just mindless fighting on a gauntlet, then 1 open area and no going back.

I object to X being made out to be XIII  :)
« Last Edit: 2012-01-20 18:27:45 by DLPB »

Prince Lex

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Re: What Went Wrong?
« Reply #61 on: 2012-01-20 18:26:47 »
Again most of those things are true, but if we're talking about how linear the game is, it's very similar to how linear X was. That's all I'm saying. There are obviously other things about XIII that make it a worse game than X, but they're still both similarly linear in the same way.

hian

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Re: What Went Wrong?
« Reply #62 on: 2012-01-21 15:50:50 »
To be fair though, despite any illusion of freedom, all FF games are completely linear by most accounts.
Although you can sidetrack a few times, you're always on a one-way railroad track towards the end - There are no alternative routes(except in a few limited ways, like in the Shinra HQ), and no alternative endings. The only "non-linear" elements of the earlier games is a very few side-quests, and the ability to backtrack or dally around old spots - But you can't advance lest you move back on track.

Still, I agree that it's a stretch to compare FF10 with FF13. FF10 stripped away the world map - But that's basically it.
FF13 stripped away almost everything else that people consider the core elements of any good Jrpg.

As for Last Story - It's god damn amazing IMO.
It's the only next-gen j-rpg made since the end of the PS2 era that I consider worth mentioning at all in comparison to the old giants(FF6-10, Suikoden 1-2, Xenogears, BoF3-4, Vandal Hearts, Alundra, Chrono Trigger/Cross etc).
In fact, I consider it even better than some of the old classics.
It's the only Jrpg, where I haven't hated a single character from the main cast, and had no grudges with neither story nor gameplay.
The only drawback for me, was that it could have been longer and more massive in scale - But you can't have it all.

DLPB_

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Re: What Went Wrong?
« Reply #63 on: 2012-01-21 15:55:17 »

Still, I agree that it's a stretch to compare FF10 with FF13. FF10 stripped away the world map - But that's basically it.
FF13 stripped away almost everything else that people consider the core elements of any good Jrpg.


Exactly.  You speak Japanese no (to play Last Story)?

hian

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Re: What Went Wrong?
« Reply #64 on: 2012-01-22 02:12:11 »
Yes. I speak fluently(still struggling with Kanji though).
Worth mentioning that Last Story is pretty basic in its presentation so even the average anime fan should be able to get through it and grasp the gist of it(more or less everything fully voice-acted, semi-English menus, and all relevant information like item-names and place-names are usually related in katakana). Gameplay is also pretty straight forward to the point that it plays out intuitively for long standing jrpg fans as well.

I'd advise anyone to give it a try regardless of the language barrier. When I played my first FF game, I couldn't read English fluently, and back then there was no voice-overs to aid the effort - I managed it pretty well - So playing Last Story shouldn't prove that much of a challenge to most people I think.

Playing that game I think I realized how much effect Sakaguchi probably has had over the years on ensuring the quality of the FF games. It's one of my all-time favourite games, and it's the only game he has made since  FF5, where he has been both director, and original concept designer at the same time, which seems to confirm the relation between Sakaguchis level of involvement and the quality of games being made :P

I'm almost willing to bet that if he got back control of the FF franchise, we wouldn't have to wait for much more than a year, until we saw a FF game with the old magic revived - But then that's not going to happen - So screw Square-Enix.

Livesey

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Re: What Went Wrong?
« Reply #65 on: 2012-01-23 00:35:33 »
I have to say I actually loved FFX the world was immersive the NPC's didn't seem fake, I thought the main characters were all great (which is rare for me especially given that it had voice acting) and hunting for treasure chests is one of my many joys in Final Fantasy games.

As for Tidus, I hated him for nearly the whole story, the part when the Fayth tells him he is a dream and he just acts the same I respect him for that. I know a lot of people hate Tidus but c'mon he had more of a personality than Squall, I hated that guy and all his dots.

Also as for the FFX was the decline of the FF series, I have to completely disagree while it had some elements that were shared by 12 it had far more shared by those that came before it. FFX-2 never happened its easier on my heart that way.

As pointed out by a few people FFX seems linear because it does not have a world map and while this may seem like a bad thing to many (including myself) it certainly has it's perks, I couldn't imagine FFX with a world map now because they would have had to remove the great looking nature trails. While I love the exploration of a world map I believe having these kind of "zones" sucks you into the world.

FFXII on the other hand scrapped away with the battle system interesting NPC's and story, while you can argue it had political story I do not believe a game where you can remove the main character and the story will remain unchanged can claim to have a good story.

Bosola

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Re: What Went Wrong?
« Reply #66 on: 2012-01-23 00:43:59 »
I know a lot of people hate Tidus but c'mon he had more of a personality than Squall, I hated that guy and all his dots.


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...Whatever.

DLPB_

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Re: What Went Wrong?
« Reply #67 on: 2012-01-23 00:46:00 »
I liked squall, the whole point of his character was that he was a sociopath.  Sociopaths do not go round partying and rave dancing.   It was a good story.  All the stories of FF were decent up to X in my view, and after that they got sloppy and amateurish.  Just like the standard.  :)

Livesey

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Re: What Went Wrong?
« Reply #68 on: 2012-01-23 00:47:44 »
Speaking of FFVIII what the hell was with NORG? It wasn't only me that noticed that it came up from no-where, was accepted by all characters without questions and was never spoken of again was it?

DLPB_

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Re: What Went Wrong?
« Reply #69 on: 2012-01-23 00:58:08 »
yeah that one was baffling I agree...  norg was the founder and recluse of garden... he formed it with Martine if I recall...  But he just pops up one day as "oh yeah, this dude lives in the basement and he is the owner"  He is mentioned again in certain NPC Shumi discussions.

Parts of ff8 were really well done, others were sloppy and forced.  Same with IX and Necron.

I dunno why they localised it to NORG and not just Norg or Nog. 

Livesey

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Re: What Went Wrong?
« Reply #70 on: 2012-01-23 01:01:12 »
I have to ssay my most hates part of 8 is when they find out they were all childhood friends, Why didn't any of them recognise eachother? It was too cliche' and coincidental for my liking. But I agree 8 had some amazing moments.

Prince Lex

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Re: What Went Wrong?
« Reply #71 on: 2012-01-23 01:01:35 »
I liked squall, the whole point of his character was that he was a sociopath.  Sociopaths do not go round partying and rave dancing.   It was a good story.  All the stories of FF were decent up to X in my view, and after that they got sloppy and amateurish.  Just like the standard.  :)

I loved Squall. But he was in no way a sociopath! Hahaha. I think you've misused the word there. Look up the clinical definition of sociopath. I agree he had anti social qualities in the beginning of the game, but that was a completely forced/ fake attitude to deal with the abandonment complex.

The point of Squall's character is that he's in emotional turmoil from the very beginning but maintains his composure to focus. He is able to do this by keeping himself seperate from everyone, but then is surrounded by people who wear him down. Cracks start to show in his lone wolf resolve. He meets Rinoa, he becomes the leader of Balamb Garden. Shit goes down with Rinoa. Walls come down, very very emotional person. Almost the complete opposite of sociopathic, though I can see why someone who didn't properly know what it meant would think that.


yeah that one was baffling I agree...  norg was the founder and recluse of garden... he formed it with Martine if I recall...  But he just pops up one day as "oh yeah, this dude lives in the basement and he is the owner"  He is mentioned again in certain NPC Shumi discussions.

Parts of ff8 were really well done, others were sloppy and forced.  Same with IX and Necron.

I dunno why they localised it to NORG and not just Norg or Nog. 


There are bits in every FF that are really well done or sloppy and forced IMO, though it's subjective.

DLPB_

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Re: What Went Wrong?
« Reply #72 on: 2012-01-23 01:09:05 »
I have to ssay my most hates part of 8 is when they find out they were all childhood friends, Why didn't any of them recognise eachother? It was too cliche' and coincidental for my liking. But I agree 8 had some amazing moments.

again yeah, that is 1 of the usual hates of VIII and one I have to agree with.  They explain it away by saying the GF give people amnesia, and that Irvine remembered because he hadnt used GF that often.  It was poor exposition and writing there.

I also didn't like how light bulb head turned up at the very end...  it was completely unnecessary.

On the plus side, the garden battle goes down as my favourite ever single moment in a Final Fantasy.  The music, graphics, and story there were well executed.  Plus Seifer is brilliant.  Always.
« Last Edit: 2012-01-23 01:11:14 by DLPB »

Livesey

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Re: What Went Wrong?
« Reply #73 on: 2012-01-23 01:25:36 »
Too true the garden fight was one of my favourite ever final fantasy moments. The others being FFIX where Zidane turns into a loner, all of FFX's Rikku doggy paddle moments, FF7 Cloud beating on Aeris - Aerith in the temple. and the Gondola with Tifa scene in FF7.

DLPB_

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Re: What Went Wrong?
« Reply #74 on: 2012-01-23 01:26:29 »
I also remember wakka makin me laugh blaming al bhed for everything.

reminds me, anyone got an official release of The Landing being performed by orchestra?
« Last Edit: 2012-01-23 01:29:52 by DLPB »