[FF7PC-98/Steam] New Threat Mod (v2.0.99994)

[Bowser9]

Nah, it's never 2 hours for the morphs, and you only ever need to morph maybe 5 of any type of creature that morphs into those items while you run to the next boss, which is insanely easy with Tifa and high dex. If you're spending that long to morph things... then yeah, don't use Morph or the item strategy unless you're comfortable with it. Max speed settings, counting hits, etc; it's not for everyone.

Why are you strapped for Gil? Sell all your Phoenix Downs and Ethers and just chuck the cheap rods. Or don't. It's clear you don't like Throw, but I haven't had any issues with it, so I'm calling it out as a valid strategy. I also just have a long history of geeking out over it. Sega Chief knows. 

I wasn't talking about pure physical attack damage. You misread my post. However, if I had to use just physical attacks, there are plenty of setups for str/dex that will give a turn advantage, starting from Shinra HQ, which isn't that much slower in real time compared to magic so I'll do it just to change things up.

How dare you; I never over level in NT. Ever. I love rare steals to the point where I always run away from fights if I haven't already killed the enemies therein at least once (so I can fill out my morph/steal list).

[JLOUTLAW]

It's not in the catalog yet; there's a makeshift IRO supplied with the Main Installer though.

I have to be honest..... I don't understand what you mean. Is the file in the 7th heaven or is it in the new threat main download?

[Bowser9]

@JLOUTLAW
Ah, Sega Chief must be referencing the old mediafire upload that included a bunch of things. The current link just as the installer, so you'll have to wait.

EDIT: Whoops, it's part of the zip archive.

[Sega Chief]

why, sure, i'll spend 2 hours farming useless strawberries when i can move on with the game.

throw also costs money. money i was always strapped for until disc 2 when i realized all those crystal swords i stole sold for a hell of a lot of money. glad i took the time to swipe em.

30 dex just means she hits for junk damage more often. doesnt mean much when spells are doing triple her per turn damage for a paltry amount of easily restored mp.

if you say her damage is good, did you overlevel?

https://youtu.be/23x9DN6AL94

Jenova's defensive values:
Physical Def: 104
Magical Def: 118
Difference of 14 (negligible, enemy defence stats aren't doubled like they are for the party in NT)

Total Damage Output for Tifa and Aeris, set up to maximise their roles as STR and MAG damage-dealers, using Elemental for Tifa and Quake for Aeris to get 2x damage and both at the intended area soft-cap of Lv.21. I've included values that take out the Node damage from it (the small enemies that spawn later):

Code: [Select]

Aeris
1161 (Shiva Summon)
424
420
414
436
422
436
412
463 + 175 + 0 (Antipode, all enemies)
124 (Fire, on Node enemy)
430
422
436
430
434
436

14 Attacks overall (16 if counting Nodes)
= 6713 w/o Node damage
= 7475 w/ Node damage

Tifa
324
336
324
320
332
415 + 437 (Limit)
334
334
324
593 + 656 (Limit, struck Node enemy)
407 + 454 (Limit)
318
322
326
318
336
672 (crit)

16 Attacks overall (17 if counting Nodes)

= 6533 w/o Node damage
= 7782 w/ Node damage

For traversing areas with random enemies, the best thing to do is fit your physical attacker up either with a common element (Fire/Ice/Bolt) to clear out weaker enemies faster or give them something a bit more niche to deal with tougher enemies (Holy, Earth, etc). Early on, I tend to use a physical attacker for mop-up if a spell doesn't kill a weak random rather than waste a second cast on it.

But there's nothing wrong with the physical damage so long as you set up for it. Each individual hit will usually be weaker, but the Limits help cover for that (so long as you're not sitting in the back row with sadness, that is).

I have to be honest..... I don't understand what you mean. Is the file in the 7th heaven or is it in the new threat main download?

If you download the Main Installer, there will be a couple of folders inside. The one called 7H contains the IRO I made for people to use while we get the bugs squashed for Alyza's catalog update to NT.

[Bowser9]

That's awesome, Sega Chief. It's nice to see the numbers compared side to side like that.

[aquecoucou]

Nah, Throw is love. Throw is life.

Was wondering, what is the best way you found to stack gils when needed ? So far, using a Gil plus materia, I'm farming raptors in front of bone village, they die quickly enough and drop 27k gil per fight but it's an uncommon encounter.

[Bowser9]

@aquecoucou
Huh, if you're just looking for more consistent cash flow at your current point in Disc 1, you can just farm at Wutai's Hokage Rock. TBH, with Gil Plus you could farm anywhere the story takes you. You could even grind a bunch of spare materia and make a killing just off of the returns, but... I mean, if you really needed/wanted to?

[GeoFlare]

I have to say, I have no problems with Tifa and her damage output. She consistently deals damage on par with that of the spell casters and even more with the DeathBlow materia. Also her limits tend to just pump out damage incredibly fast since I really don't use a tank. Tifa is generally always in my party along with Aerith. The two of them plus Cloud have got me to the Temple of the Ancients without a problem (besides my little love/hate relationship with Powersoul Keeper).

[FifulX]

Thanks for the answers guys. I was also wondering, what do I link elemental with if a monster is not weak to any element? Do I link a non-elemental materia or will my damage still go up with a random element they're not strong to?

[Sega Chief]

There is no non-elemental Materia; when they were making the game, they ran into a snag where every Materia needed to have an element so they dumped the non-elemental ones into using an element called 'Hidden'. NT makes use of the Hidden element for enemies and attacks, so if you combine a Materia with no listed Element then your attacks gain the Hidden element. The Weapon monsters and any Holy-element monster will be weak to Hidden, but Jenova bosses and anything associated with it will resist this element.

Your damage stays the same if you have an element set to your weapon but the enemy has no weaknesses/resistances to it. The trick for physical attackers is to pick an element that will help for the random fights that take the longest/cause the most trouble. Fire/Ice is generally good for a lot of the common enemies that appear in larger numbers; when in doubt, use Fire/Ice because there will always be an enemy on the route that has this weakness (unless it's a Shinra facility, in which case Bolt can be handy).

Edit: Almost forgot, as part of a small difficulty upgrade I'm making a change to the button press in Reactor No. 5: https://youtu.be/dOoIyU1J-cY

[FifulX]

So when a monster is not weak to anything, it's better to use a different materia or just put elemental in armor with whatever they throw at you, right? Also, I was wondering what causes the bombs in the Bomb King fight to explode, sometimes they take 2 attacks (including the one by King Bomb), sometimes they don't explode at all, and it's been largely confusing.

[Yuffie1983]

There is no non-elemental Materia; when they were making the game, they ran into a snag where every Materia needed to have an element so they dumped the non-elemental ones into using an element called 'Hidden'. NT makes use of the Hidden element for enemies and attacks, so if you combine a Materia with no listed Element then your attacks gain the Hidden element. The Weapon monsters and any Holy-element monster will be weak to Hidden, but Jenova bosses and anything associated with it will resist this element.

Your damage stays the same if you have an element set to your weapon but the enemy has no weaknesses/resistances to it. The trick for physical attackers is to pick an element that will help for the random fights that take the longest/cause the most trouble. Fire/Ice is generally good for a lot of the common enemies that appear in larger numbers; when in doubt, use Fire/Ice because there will always be an enemy on the route that has this weakness (unless it's a Shinra facility, in which case Bolt can be handy).

Mr Chief will the IRO packaged with the installer work with other mod, like graphical ones.

Edit: Almost forgot, as part of a small difficulty upgrade I'm making a change to the button press in Reactor No. 5: https://youtu.be/dOoIyU1J-cY

[Sega Chief]

So when a monster is not weak to anything, it's better to use a different materia or just put elemental in armor with whatever they throw at you, right? Also, I was wondering what causes the bombs in the Bomb King fight to explode, sometimes they take 2 attacks (including the one by King Bomb), sometimes they don't explode at all, and it's been largely confusing.

It's very rare that an enemy will have no elemental weakness, but there are a couple that don't. You can't guarantee what random encounter you'll fight next (sort of), but there's no harm in keeping it on. Unless it's a boss with no elemental weakness, in which case it'd be better to use it for defence/not at all.

Bomb King has an attack called Ignite Fuse, which inflicts the Dual-Drain status. You need to dispel this off, or use Regen on the affected Bomb to cancel it out.

Mr Chief will the IRO packaged with the installer work with other mod, like graphical ones.

It should do.

[DynamixDJ]

There is no non-elemental Materia; when they were making the game, they ran into a snag where every Materia needed to have an element so they dumped the non-elemental ones into using an element called 'Hidden'. NT makes use of the Hidden element for enemies and attacks, so if you combine a Materia with no listed Element then your attacks gain the Hidden element. The Weapon monsters and any Holy-element monster will be weak to Hidden, but Jenova bosses and anything associated with it will resist this element.

For those that don't know, Hidden can also be utilized in the main game of FFVII. Equipping Elemental with a non-elemental Materia (excluding all support Materia and Restore) onto your armour will grant resistance to the Hidden Element, in which only one attack uses - Ultimate Weapon's Ultimate Beam. There are several more enemy attacks that use Hidden, however none of them cause actual damage, so you cannot defend against it (Status changing attacks).

Trivially, in the Jap original game there were a total of 15 attacks that caused damage which used the Hidden, or "10th" Element which you could defend against, however all but one (Ultimate Beam) had the hidden element changed to one of the 5 physical elements (Cut/Hit/Shoot/Shout/Punch).

[Sega Chief]

I read somewhere that Carry Armour's Lapis Laser was hidden element in the J-ORG version; that would have made a big difference to challenge runs if it had survived the trip overseas. I think the Marine's (or was it Attack Squad) Smoke-Shot also survived and still carries Hidden; you can avoid the status this attack inflicts with Hidden protection. I think. Maybe.

Edit: Big thanks to DH for the donation; my memory remains foggier than a chocobo sage, however.

[FifulX]

Holy shit, you guys were right. I have never used added cut before, but I have got Added Cut = Steal (level 2) linked and with 2x counter and command counter deathblow Cid just got 5 crits in a row for a total of 20~k damage. I guess elemental also plays a big part of that damage output, but hell he hits hard and is constantly under shield so he won't die.

[DynamixDJ]

I read somewhere that Carry Armour's Lapis Laser was hidden element in the J-ORG version; that would have made a big difference to challenge runs if it had survived the trip overseas. I think the Marine's (or was it Attack Squad) Smoke-Shot also survived and still carries Hidden; you can avoid the status this attack inflicts with Hidden protection. I think. Maybe.

I may test for this when I get home, but I highly suspect that you are wrong.

Did you know that there are various enemies such as the Sahagin that are weak to the physical elements, such as Punch? Although the effect would be "can't miss", not x2 damage.
Also, the Corvette takes double damage from Confusion, and Palmer takes double damage from Sleep. Not sure what's going on in Pr Cl though, the resistances state Reflect and Manipulate, respectively, although I know from testing that their weaknesses are Sleep/Confu, and Terence's Enemy Mechanics FAQ confirms this.

[Sega Chief]

I may test for this when I get home, but I highly suspect that you are wrong.

Did you know that there are various enemies such as the Sahagin that are weak to the physical elements, such as Punch? Although the effect would be "can't miss", not x2 damage.
Also, the Corvette takes double damage from Confusion, and Palmer takes double damage from Sleep. Not sure what's going on in Pr Cl though, the resistances state Reflect and Manipulate, respectively, although I know from testing that their weaknesses are Sleep/Confu, and Terence's Enemy Mechanics FAQ confirms this.

This is from a default Steam FF7 scene.bin.

NFITC1 mentioned somewhere that the PrC tool has some of the statuses mixed up in the elemental bit, so it's the tool that's wrong.

[aquecoucou]

That's the first time I hear about the Cut/Hit/Shoot/Shout/Punch. I always thought there was only Cut/Hit/Shoot. (Learned of Shout because of Bahamuts in NT).

Also, I never found the reason of it, but all Aerith limits have the Hidden element. Did you change it in NT Sega Chief ?

I was also wondering, you previously said linking Elemental = Cover would result in hidden, did you change it ? Because according to the wikia [http://finalfantasy.wikia.com/wiki/Hidden_(element)], it shouldn't work (but works with "Plus" materias).

Put a non-elemental Materia like Barrier or Cover or something into Cloud's weapon and then combine it with Elemental for 2x damage (doesn't work for his Limits, which use separate formulas/elements).

[Sega Chief]

That's the first time I hear about the Cut/Hit/Shoot/Shout/Punch. I always thought there was only Cut/Hit/Shoot. (Learned of Shout because of Bahamuts in NT).

Also, I never found the reason of it, but all Aerith limits have the Hidden element. Did you change it in NT Sega Chief ?

I was also wondering, you previously said linking Elemental = Cover would result in hidden, did you change it ? Because according to the wikia [http://finalfantasy.wikia.com/wiki/Hidden_(element)], it shouldn't work (but works with "Plus" materias).

NT uses physical elements to an extent; along with Bahamut's Shout, Protect Vests will halve Shoot damage. Cut, Hit, and Punch don't have any weaknesses/resistances associated with them. As for Aeris' Limits, I didn't change them to Hidden; that's probably a default .EXE thing. Elemental should work with any of them; in the Kernel, every Materia has an Element with Hidden being the 'default' one if there's no obvious element for it. That being said, give it a try with Cover and let me know if it doesn't.

[DynamixDJ]

I was also wondering, you previously said linking Elemental = Cover would result in hidden, did you change it ? Because according to the wikia [http://finalfantasy.wikia.com/wiki/Hidden_(element)], it shouldn't work (but works with "Plus" materias).

I wouldn't really take anything on Wikia as gospel. To my knowledge ALL non-elemental Materias will pair with Elemental to grant "Hidden", with the exception of other Support Mateiras, and Restore (and Possibly Full Cure???). As Sega mentions, if Cover does not grant Hidden please be sure to let us know. In fact, I may just test this for myself.

@Sega - yes, while Smoke Bullet does indeed carry the Hidden Element property (as does a number of Status changing attacks), the Attack Strength is 0, so the move doesn't inflict any actual damage, and as far as I am aware of, Hidden (elemental) protection will not nullify Status changes. I'm not 100% sure, but i am 99.9% sure of this, and I'd probably put money on it 

-Edit- Ok, I've just been looking around for other Status changing attacks that use the Hidden Element, and I've found a few, the Dorky Breath's "Funny Breath" being one of them. Looking at the differentiation between Funny Breath and Smoke Bullet, I can see that Smoke Shot is a physical attack, whereas Funny Breath is a magical attack.

Are you suggesting that a physical Status changing attack can be blocked by pairing Elemental with whatever Element that status changing attack holds (similar to how poison works)? Ok, now I HAVE to test. I'll report back.

[Sega Chief]

@Sega - yes, while Smoke Shot does indeed carry the Hidden Element property (as does a number of Status changing attacks), the Attack Strength is 0, so the move doesn't inflict any actual damage, and as far as I am aware of, Hidden (elemental) protection will not nullify Status changes. I'm not 100% sure, but i am 99.9% sure of this, and I'd probably put money on it 

-Edit- Ok, I've just been looking around for other Status changing attacks that use the Hidden Element, and I've found a few, the Dorky Breath's "Funny Breath" being one of them. Looking at the differentiation between Funny Breath and Smoke-Shot, I can see that Smoke Shot is a physical attack, whereas Funny Breath is a magical attack.

Are you suggesting that a physical Status changing attack can be blocked by pairing Elemental with whatever Element that status changing attack holds (similar to how poison works)? Ok, now I HAVE to test. I'll report back.

Oh, you were meaning the status-blocking thing? I'm not 100% sure myself, I think I threw it on a set-up once in NT and the attack missed. Might have just been a natural miss, but I was assuming it was similar to how Poison works (though that might be hard-coded and unique, like Earth). I also read in one of the FAQs that absorbing an element meant that the statuses it inflicts are actually healed off you instead but I've not tested that at all.

[DynamixDJ]

Oh, you were meaning the status-blocking thing? I'm not 100% sure myself, I think I threw it on a set-up once in NT and the attack missed. Might have just been a natural miss, but I was assuming it was similar to how Poison works (though that might be hard-coded and unique, like Earth). I also read in one of the FAQs that absorbing an element meant that the statuses it inflicts are actually healed off you instead but I've not tested that at all.

Holy [swear]ing [swear], I don't [swear]ing believe it!!!!! I (we) have just discovered a new way of using Hidden that none of the sources document!!!

Ok, I battled with the Attack Squad, and all of their Smoke Bullets failed to cast Darkness, with perpetual "misses". So I unequipped the Mystile, toned all of my characters down to Lv 15 (and removed all Source bonuses), and gave the players a Lv 1, 2 & 3 Elemental. Guess what? Same result, except the Lv1 Elemental did not nullify Darkness (as you would expect).

So, does this just work with "Hidden" physical attacks, or does it also work with magical attacks too? Over to Nibelheim I went to fight the Dorky faces. YES!!! Not once did Curses or Funny Breath inflict player 2 or 3 with Silence or Confusion. The "miss" sign pops up, which would normally suggest that one is vulnerable but the attack missed, but we all know there are cracks in the coding, and we've just found another one! Nice work!!!!

I'm now going to go on a scavenge to find all "Hidden" attacks in the game, and then I'll do some more tests. My walkthrough is now going to be getting mulled over I feel, as I know have a much better strategy to offer for at least the Shinra Mansion. I'm excited to see how many other areas Hidden can now be taken advantage of   

Oh, and there was no HP restore with the Mastered Elemental. I suspect that only applies when you are Poisoned, as the poison damage has the Poison Element, so you heal yourself every time the poison kicks in.

-edit- I'v just tried it with the Cover Materia too, same result!

[Sega Chief]

Holy [swear]ing [swear], I don't [swear]ing believe it!!!!! I (we) have just discovered a new way of using Hidden that none of the sources document!!!

Ok, I battled with the Attack Squad, and all of their Smoke Bullets failed to cast Darkness, with perpetual "misses". So I unequipped the Mystile, toned all of my characters down to Lv 15 (and removed all Source bonuses), and gave the players a Lv 1, 2 & 3 Elemental. Guess what? Same result, except the Lv1 Elemental did not nullify Darkness (as you would expect).

So, does this just work with "Hidden" physical attacks, or does it also work with magical attacks too? Over to Nibelheim I went to fight the Dorky faces. YES!!! Not once did Curses or Funny Breath inflict player 2 or 3 with Silence or Confusion. The "miss" sign pops up, which would normally suggest that one is vulnerable but the attack missed, but we all know there are cracks in the coding, and we've just found another one! Nice work!!!!

I'm now going to go on a scavenge to find all "Hidden" attacks in the game, and then I'll do some more tests. My walkthrough is now going to be getting mulled over I feel, as I know have a much better strategy to offer for at least the Shinra Mansion. I'm excited to see how many other areas Hidden can now be taken advantage of   

Oh, and there was no HP restore with the Mastered Elemental. I suspect that only applies when you are Poisoned, as the poison damage has the Poison Element, so you heal yourself every time the poison kicks in.

-edit- I'v just tried it with the Cover Materia too, same result!

Avoiding Funny Breath would be handy; confusion is a huge pain and those Smoke Bullets are really annoying as well. Smoke Bullet was the only one I knew of that had Hidden on it though, besides Ultima Beam.

On the subject, there's a wee secret with the Dorky Faces. Dunno if it's guide-worthy, but might be a nice factoid when writing about the area: https://youtu.be/qpN5qJbb7io

[Yuffie1983]

If you are using the 7TH heaven Iro how do you go about patching the game with hot fixes and the Flevels and to keep it up to date. Thanks for any help in advanced.