[Discussion] 7th Heaven NextGen or sth different?

[Insight]

Hi everyone,

i just think we should discuss something about 7th heaven.

Mentioning in the other topic, I am interested to overhaul the current 7th heaven. Reasons e.g. is the overall UI and bugs. Sticking to WPF, C# and so on, since my strong point is in WPF and UI ...
I started to redo the UI in the past, but iro was not really helping at all and not willing to make his project open-source (at that time, but it is more or less now). So i stopped. now he is vanished, the tool itself gets maintained somewhat by ficedula, but i don't see an overall agenda.

I got in touch with Elyza and we have discussed some stuff and she is willing to help and support me. Probably this goes for every project that is getting DONE, really done. My time is as scarce as everyone else i guess. This means, the progress is slow, but there would be progress at some point.

As I was about to start this topic, I have seen a post from DLPB at discord who is going to make a new or similar system. Maybe others and myself don't want to spend time for nothing, so i was just going to ask everyone who is working on something for us / themselves.... why dont we join up and make something good?

I won't get into any details, because it doesn't matter currently, so I was wondering what the feedback would be ...
You're welcome and thank you for reading!

[DLPB_]

I am also currently making my own mod manager integrated into Aali's driver.  But I don't know C very well so it's proving a hassle.

[Insight]

So you are going to do something awesome, i see.

from my perspective, it is not impossible to generate a UI from a different language as long it is possible to execute your desired with the respective settings. since i dont know anything from your architecture or what you are doing, i cannot say.

But to be honest, this case is exactly what i meant. Why not develop something together in a way where everyone can benefit from. making it open-source is also a good approach in the end, so it will be available to anyone who wants to contribute or want to take over.

[DLPB_]

My way of doing it allows for a degree of leniency but is more catered to entire mods that are self contained - because I think that's the best way of doing it.  7H is nice but it adds so many issues and will never manage to work out all the inconsistencies.

My way will be open source if using aali's driver code.  It's a fairly simple system that makes use of whole lgp reads and directmode.

[Covarr]

The Tools sections are for releases, not for discussion. Moved to Scripting & Reverse Engineering. ~Covarr

[EQ2Alyza]

I don't think many are going to join in on the discussion tbh. In the past, we've spent numerous amounts of time discussing ideas...or basically "what ifs" only to have the project fall short due to developer fallout. 7H has been a project long overdue for an update, so let's just leave it at that to agree upon and get working on it. We can post updates as we go along and leave the discussion for after the work is done

[Insight]

The problem is, it was like with bootleg.i invested time for it, then 7th came and it was all for nothing. I don't want to repeat that again. It's like with all the guys you have encountered as well which did not finish -it-.

[EQ2Alyza]

Your call. I don't know if I'll use Dan's new mod manager. His tools from the past have not always had the easiest learning curve.

[Kaldarasha]

My way of doing it allows for a degree of leniency but is more catered to entire mods that are self contained - because I think that's the best way of doing it.  7H is nice but it adds so many issues and will never manage to work out all the inconsistencies.

My way will be open source if using aali's driver code.  It's a fairly simple system that makes use of whole lgp reads and directmode.

The only issue we have is the need of the downpatch. Most problems occurs there. Once Aali's driver works with the re-release and 7H works with FF7_en.exe a lot of the troubleshooting will be gone.
7H does a very good job to increase compatibility between mods. If I want to change only one model I can do it for every mod. It also allows breaking through the limitations of the game. We could make for example an ingame difficulty selection by swapping scene.bin through another or make the early areas enemies harder when Meteor appears.
I don't think that the new modmanager will replace 7H, but I could imangine that 7H in return could make use of it. For example files which doesn't need to be activated through a certain condition, could be written to the new modmanagers folder and 7H takes care only of the conditional files. This may decrease load times when many mods are selected.

[Insight]

The only issue we have is the need of the downpatch. Most problems occurs there. Once Aali's driver works with the re-release and 7H works with FF7_en.exe a lot of the troubleshooting will be gone.
7H does a very good job to increase compatibility between mods. If I want to change only one model I can do it for every mod. It also allows breaking through the limitations of the game. We could make for example an ingame difficulty selection by swapping scene.bin through another or make the early areas enemies harder when Meteor appears.
I don't think that the new modmanager will replace 7H, but I could imangine that 7H in return could make use of it. For example files which doesn't need to be activated through a certain condition, could be written to the new modmanagers folder and 7H takes care only of the conditional files. This may decrease load times when many mods are selected.

yup, and there lies the problem. the "might" and "when" and "if" make it even more complicated. if you design from the ground a solid architecture and include all benefits from the tools there are, merging them into one tool, you need to design it carefully. if i look at the code from the winForms application, it is really ... not good. hard to read and to manage if you aren't the creator, and even then.

i have to admit, i dont know how the system works from iro (injecting stuff and so on), but that is not necessary. this injecting thing can be managed by his library. the rest will be redone and redesigned as it needs to be done.
i am still figuring stuff out and it will take time.
If there is another, better way for handling the mods (technically spoken) with DPLBs system, then this might replace the procedures iro has written.

[EQ2Alyza]

I don't think you're familiar with some of the features that 7H can do to say that Dan's mod manager will replace it. The biggest one is allowing any mod (textures, models, scripts, etc) to activate and deactivate at any point throughout a playthough.

I have to see Dan's finished work before I can pass any decision on it, but from what I understand from his posts, he is only aiming at managing completed mods that he knows can work together. Dan also has a very precise vision of how he wants the game to be, so his finished project may not be what everyone is looking for. 7H was always meant to combine any mods you want with a simple push of button, but of course with this amount of freedom also comes inconsistencies with mod compatibility and gameplay experience (mismatched textures, models, sound, etc). Dan's work will probably end up being a foundation to start with, while 7H can supplement it with smaller individual mods.

[Tsuna]

7th heaven can do so much more than what it shows on the surface. You would be amazed at much i use it to make awesome things work. What a player see's and what a modder see's in 7th heaven are vastly different.

I'm not even sure what's supposed to be wrong with it? Iv'e never had an issue

[Insight]

Thanks for the input. I haven't checked everything in detail (not possible now).

I am working on the basics of the UI and then adding further (core) functionality.

First check-in might be at the weekend. Distributing a link so on later.
Any update which is usable might exist by the end of the year or next year.

Edit:
Won't consider anything from DLPB until it is finished and is a real alternative to 7h.