[FF8PC - Steam] Succession Mod (v.1.0)

[goat]

I always felt that Quistis is more of a friend who wants to be a *good friend* to Squall.

She doesn't want to just be a teacher; she wants to really connect with him, and be trusted by him.
It's not a matter of romance, even if she's the sort of girl who might play a frisky game of truth-or-dare with him under better circumstances.
I figure that she just wants a person who's smart and competent enough to be her friend.

She's surrounded by those Trepe groupies who are infatuated with her, right? But that doesn't satisfy her. She wants a REAL friend who's on her level.
Not someone who looks up to her, but someone who is her equal. Not as a lover necessarily, even if that'd make her happy too, but she's fine to just be friends with a person who "gets it."

Like Squall. Squall with his skill, and his dark, isolated personality means that he doesn't just obsess over her like her fanatics do. Instead, he's a challenge, and she feels like she's winning when she can guess what he'll say next. But isn't she always rejected, even just as a friend?

I think her struggle isn't one of romance. It's that she just wants to be his friend, someone to talk to, but he keeps rejecting her both on personal terms, and he doesn't even need her advice either.

But she won't give up!

[Percival]

@FatherMcKenzie
Thank you SO much for all of the feedback!  I have never felt so encouraged that all the time spent on this mod was worthwhile. And thank you for all the corrections. I am already working on the next update.

  The greatest limitation I have had when adding any new content is finding a scene that justifies it. Some scenes seem almost originally designed for the changes I've made, like Rinoa's fall during the Garden battle, or why Rinoa has an Odine Bangle in the first place. But many ideas were not nearly that easy. Within my notes is a long wish list of things (which includes what you've mentioned) that there simple wasn't any room for. I'm actually amazed that I was able to add as much of my list as I did.

THINGS I'D HAVE DONE DIFFERENTLY

Spoiler: show

-Quistis' romantic dimension: I understand it was hard finding spots to inject new dialogue. The only real quality one-on-one time with Squall & Quisty happens in the early game [Intro, Fire Cavern, Training Center]. I was wondering if there was any more spots where Quistis could have made her feelings for Squall (and Rinoa jealousy) known, but there aren't many to choose from after the Training Center scene. I enjoyed Dr. Kadowaki's dialogue during Rinoa's B Garden tour where the Doc hinted at Quistis' feelings toward Squall. The CCGroup dialogue is good, but I might consider using that one final opportunity to have more of a heart-to-heart with Squall and let her feelings be known (and perhaps how she's accepted that she can't have him).
-It seems you've removed Rinoa's mention of a relationship with Seifer. To me, that added another interesting facet of drama to the story. I would have left it in and even expanded it. Perhaps Seifer could have taunted Squall about Rinoa, how he was "more of a man," etc. Squall might question if Rinoa still has feelings for Seifer... There's a few opportunities for some custom dialogue like when Rinoa is in the party during the G Garden showdown with Seifer/Edea.
-The game pretty much acknowledges that Squall is Laguna's son, but Squall and Laguna don't ever address the elephant in the room. This is a HUGE development just to be left hanging out there with no formal acknowledgement between the characters themselves. That just always kind of irked me. Squall's mixed feelings at meeting his father for the first time would provide a interesting new dimension in the story.

Quistis:

Spoiler: show

  Trust me, I feel your pain. If I were actually writing my own fan fiction, I may have made a Mass Effect style 'choose your own adventure', where you could pick Rinoa or Quistis. Or perhaps I would have removed Rinoa altogether. But that's not why I'm here.
  I'm looking into the CC match dialogue (which is actually another monologue, unfortunately, since Squall never says anything back), and I'll do what I can. The challenge is that you can complete it whenever you want, so I'll have to be sufficiently vague. Keep in mind that she effectively only has 3 lines to work with, and you'll have to win against her to get them. Expect something like my recent Fire Cavern change, a noticeable improvement, perhaps, but nothing monumental.
  Also, don't forget Quistis' dialogue with Squall on the Ragnarok, after they get back from space. That's meant to be the moment where she concedes that Squall will never be happy choosing her over Rinoa. It's not as emphatic as I would have liked, but that's the only manditory scene with the two of them that I can think of after disc 1.

Rinoa/Seifer:

Spoiler: show

  Yes. I gave their minor love triangle situation a lot of thought before finally rejecting it. While it does add another layer to the drama, it ultimately falls in the same category as the amnesia. It isn't a bad idea, but it needed far more development in order to justify its inclusion. It was simply one more thing that took precious screen time away from the core elements of the plot. Like the amnesia, it was far more advantageous to cut it out, than to develop it into something good.
  One of the main challenges to making their relationship believable is that we don't get a chance to see Seifer behaving as someone who would merit Rinoa's affection. If she liked the person we see as Seifer, it would be an indictment of either her character, or her intelligence, or both. And one of my biggest concerns with Rinoa was how to make her more sympathetic. Having her inexplicably fall for Seifer was a very bad way of achieving that goal.

Laguna:

Spoiler: show

  I couldn't agree with you more!
  The more time I spend with this story, the more it becomes painfully clear that, during development, they had to rush disc 3 and 4 a lot in order to finish on time. (For example, I have a suspicion that the Deep Sea Research Facility was originally intended to be the place where they recovered the Lunatic Pandora from the ocean.) And when cutting, the first things to go were the Laguna flashbacks. Think of how much story Laguna has to dump on Squall at the very end of the game.
  My point is that I think they had originally wanted to develop Squall and Laguna's relationship far more. But since they didn't, there aren't even any scenes to rewrite. This is, again, one more interesting idea that has no scenes to support it. Like with Quistis, I need at least one scene where Laguna and Squall sit down alone and have a chat. When you find that scene, I promise to take a month rewriting it for you.
  Also, did you get a chance to talk to Laguna in the Ragnarok after he gives his speech? If you do, Laguna will actually tell Squall that, if Squall survives, he has something he needs to get of his chest, and that the two of them should have a long talk. This assumes that Squall still doesn't realize what Laguna is talking about.
  While I wasn't able to write the scene we wanted, I was able to allude to the fact that the two of them would eventually get that scene sometime in the future.

[Percival]

QUESTIONS:

Spoiler: show

-The removal of the "Time Compression" subplot and the addition of "Succession" is well done. (Time compression is still referenced in the battle text of Ultimecia's final form, though.)
If I am understanding correctly: Succession is a collective consciousness of all past sorceresses that they can junction to in order to harness their power. As sorceresses die out, their knowledge is added to the Succession which becomes collectively more powerful and presumably more irresistable/innate in future sorceresses. Sorry if I missed this: Is Ultimecia an embodiment of the Succession herself? Or is she just the most powerful user of it?
-Did you change any dialogue in the Shumi Village sidequest? I skipped it, but if you did make any changes, I'd like to see.
-You skillfully filled almost all the major plot holes and replaced weak plot devices from the original, but there's still a couple that stick with me:
--How did Squall not die after getting impaled in Deling? Did Rinoa heal him with her Sorceress powers?
--After the final battle, Squall visits Edea from the past and witnesses Ultimecia transfer her powers to Edea, completing a Grandfather paradox loop. This time, however the cycle is broken and Succession is finally ended(?) Do we know why this particular time, it's different?
--Are Ultimecia and Rinoa the same person? I know this is a fringe theory and if you don't agree with it, no worries. If not, who is Ultimecia and how did she come to be the most powerful sorceress with control over all of the other sorceresses throughout time? (Sorry if this was explained)

(Time compression is still referenced in the battle text of Ultimecia's final form, though.)

I know. If I wasn't more interested in making this mod as compatible as possible with gameplay mods, I would absolutely change ALL battle dialogue.

-Did you change any dialogue in the Shumi Village sidequest? I skipped it, but if you did make any changes, I'd like to see.

  Not at all. It's at the bottom of my list, right below rewriting random NPC dialogue in other towns and cities. (Which will likely never happen.)

Spoiler: show

--How did Squall not die after getting impaled in Deling? Did Rinoa heal him with her Sorceress powers?

  I still haven't come up with a way of explaining this, at least, not without coming off sounding pathetically contrived. Especially because I couldn't find an appropriate place to insert an explanation that wouldn%u2019t be obviously out of place. So, as of now, I guess it wasn't as bad as it looked, and Seifer just laughs it off as an inside joke for the players. (Feel free to reply if you have an idea for how, and especially WHERE I would insert such an explanation. I'm at a loss.)

Spoiler: show

--If I am understanding correctly: Succession is a collective consciousness of all past sorceresses that they can junction to in order to harness their power. As sorceresses die out, their knowledge is added to the Succession which becomes collectively more powerful and presumably more irresistable/innate in future sorceresses. Sorry if I missed this: Is Ultimecia an embodiment of the Succession herself? Or is she just the most powerful user of it?
--After the final battle, Squall visits Edea from the past and witnesses Ultimecia transfer her powers to Edea, completing a Grandfather paradox loop. This time, however the cycle is broken and Succession is finally ended(?) Do we know why this particular time, it's different?

  I had always wanted to be a bit open-ended in the conclusion, but I should have realized that an effective resolution would depend on knowing EXACTLY what happened. I was hoping that Squall's discussion with 'Edea' at the very end would offer sufficient exposition, but that dialogue is on a timer, and I couldn't add nearly as much as I had originally wanted.
  It's clear from your feedback that I should work on Odine's monologue. Our understanding of the entire conclusion rests on his explanation of the events that are to follow. This was a big problem with the vanilla plot, and it's obviously a struggle for me to overcome. Odine's monologue is already very long and very dense, and I'm not super excited that I may need to make it even longer.
  I'll work on making Odine more confident in his conclusions, and more explicit about what he knows. I think this is the only way the player will get all the necessary information.

--Are Ultimecia and Rinoa the same person? I know this is a fringe theory and if you don't agree with it, no worries. If not, who is Ultimecia and how did she come to be the most powerful sorceress with control over all of the other sorceresses throughout time? (Sorry if this was explained)

  Unfortunately, I emphatically reject both popular fan theories, 'Squall is dead' and 'Rinoa is Ultimecia'. This is mainly out of respect for the original work and its authors, but also because there isn't any obvious way of interpreting the original in that way, without torturing it to death. I do, however, find both ideas fascinating, and if Nojima had actually intended them, or even approve of them in any way, I may have tried to incorporate them both.
  Regarding Ultimecia's origin, I had always meant for it to be a bit mysterious, primarily because I didn't really see a way for anyone to ever learn the truth. (I guess I'll probably have to write that Odine learned that information from Adel, too). I never really decided on one interpretation over another, and I think that at a certain point, it becomes a distinction without a difference. But I had hoped that by providing a certain amount of explanation, while still leaving it open-ended, it would retain an intriguing sense of mystery.
  Perhaps I was wrong. I should have figured that, given my limited opportunities to provide exposition, as well as the unique nature of such a rewrite in general, that I should avoid any open-ended interpretations altogether. I seems like it may only lead to confusion and dissatisfaction for the player.
  Side note:

Spoiler: show

  In one particular sense, you could actually say that Rinoa is Ultimecia. But that is only to the same extent that all sorceresses are Ultimecia. Since Ultimecia has a certain amount of control and influence over the will of all sorceresses, she lives vicariously through them. But this is, of course, a far cry from Rinoa's fan theory, and does not rely on any time travel, or sorceresses that can live forever.

[Percival]

@goat
 You're right, but two things can be true at the same time. Quistis desperately wants to be Squall's friend, but she sees it as a means to an end. Friendship is her stepping stone to romance, and she's looking for both from Squall.

  Also, I meant to point out that Quistis suffered from her own sense of isolation as a result of her being such an exceptional student. This feeds into her need for a friend she can confide in. (Something you clearly picked up on.)  In the Orphanage Flashback scene, when she spoke of growing up with Seifer, I wanted to imply that it was something she and Seifer shared. And as she grows closer to Squall, she keeps asking him to meet her on that level. But despite her pleas, that's just not the type of person Squall is.

  My goal was to establish that the two of them had a long history of Quistis making advances on Squall, and him routinely dismissing them, leaving her perpetually 'friend-zoned'. Tragic, I know, but that's her story.

  And let me know if you think I failed to properly convey any of that. I'm always a little concerned about the balance between being too subtle and being too obvious, given the nature of the medium and the uniqueness of the project.

[FatherMcKenzie]

Thanks for taking the time to address all my points. I'll just put one big spoiler tag on this thing:

Spoiler: show

Quistis:
  Trust me, I feel your pain. If I were actually writing my own fan fiction, I may have made a Mass Effect style 'choose your own adventure', where you could pick Rinoa or Quistis. Or perhaps I would have removed Rinoa altogether. But that's not why I'm here.
  I'm looking into the CC match dialogue (which is actually another monologue, unfortunately, since Squall never says anything back), and I'll do what I can. The challenge is that you can complete it whenever you want, so I'll have to be sufficiently vague. Keep in mind that she effectively only has 3 lines to work with, and you'll have to win against her to get them. Expect something like my recent Fire Cavern change, a noticeable improvement, perhaps, but nothing monumental.
  Also, don't forget Quistis' dialogue with Squall on the Ragnarok, after they get back from space. That's meant to be the moment where she concedes that Squall will never be happy choosing her over Rinoa. It's not as emphatic as I would have liked, but that's the only manditory scene with the two of them that I can think of after disc 1.

Ha, I was a pretty big fan of the Mass Effect trilogy as well! In part, for this reason.
Yes, one of the biggest problems is the fact that Squall is just silent during the CC match scene. I took note of Quistis' dialogue on the Ragnarok, and it's well done. I think she said something along the lines of "I wish I had someone as brave as you."

Rinoa/Seifer:
  Yes. I gave their minor love triangle situation a lot of thought before finally rejecting it. While it does add another layer to the drama, it ultimately falls in the same category as the amnesia. It isn't a bad idea, but it needed far more development in order to justify its inclusion. It was simply one more thing that took precious screen time away from the core elements of the plot. Like the amnesia, it was far more advantageous to cut it out, than to develop it into something good.
  One of the main challenges to making their relationship believable is that we don't get a chance to see Seifer behaving as someone who would merit Rinoa's affection. If she liked the person we see as Seifer, it would be an indictment of either her character, or her intelligence, or both. And one of my biggest concerns with Rinoa was how to make her more sympathetic. Having her inexplicably fall for Seifer was a very bad way of achieving that goal.

I get what you're saying about Rinoa liking Seifer being an indictment of her character, but I personally wouldn't view it that way. I think people fall in love for the wrong reasons and then learn from it. I'm no therapist by any means, but just from personal experience, I'd say: One of the most important parts of building a lasting relationship is making peace with your significant other's past and who they may have loved before you. There was a part of me who thought, "Really, you dated him?" but the more time goes on and the more you fall in love, the less it matters. How much this applies to a video game script about teenage mercenaries fighting a witch from the future, I don't know lol

Laguna:
  I couldn't agree with you more!
  The more time I spend with this story, the more it becomes painfully clear that, during development, they had to rush disc 3 and 4 a lot in order to finish on time. (For example, I have a suspicion that the Deep Sea Research Facility was originally intended to be the place where they recovered the Lunatic Pandora from the ocean.) And when cutting, the first things to go were the Laguna flashbacks. Think of how much story Laguna has to dump on Squall at the very end of the game.
  My point is that I think they had originally wanted to develop Squall and Laguna's relationship far more. But since they didn't, there aren't even any scenes to rewrite. This is, again, one more interesting idea that has no scenes to support it. Like with Quistis, I need at least one scene where Laguna and Squall sit down alone and have a chat. When you find that scene, I promise to take a month rewriting it for you.
  Also, did you get a chance to talk to Laguna in the Ragnarok after he gives his speech? If you do, Laguna will actually tell Squall that, if Squall survives, he has something he needs to get of his chest, and that the two of them should have a long talk. This assumes that Squall still doesn't realize what Laguna is talking about.
  While I wasn't able to write the scene we wanted, I was able to allude to the fact that the two of them would eventually get that scene sometime in the future.

That's some fascinating insight... The Lunatic Pandora subplot is one of my favorite parts of the story and if they could have illustrated how it was extracted from the ocean via the Deep Sea Research Facility, that would have been cool.
I think you're right about the Laguna scenes getting cut as well. That's what made the Laguna story so puzzling for me, at least when I was playing this for the first time.
I took note of the Ragnarok Laguna/Squall dialogue. This is probably the only scene that it could have been addressed. Just like with Quistis, the problem is: Squall is completely silent.

[Re: Squall getting impaled]
  I still haven’t come up with a way of explaining this, at least, not without coming off sounding pathetically contrived. Especially because I couldn’t find an appropriate place to insert an explanation that wouldn’t be obviously out of place. So, as of now, I guess it wasn’t as bad as it looked, and Seifer just laughs it off as an inside joke for the players. (Feel free to reply if you have an idea for how, and especially WHERE I would insert such an explanation. I’m at a loss.)

I can't really think of an explanation either, aside from (1) Rinoa saving his life (2) Edea spares his life to extract information or (3) Squall is dead theory. It's a tough one. Maybe #2 is Occam's razor.

  I had always wanted to be a bit open-ended in the conclusion, but I should have realized that an effective resolution would depend on knowing EXACTLY what happened. I was hoping that Squall’s discussion with ‘Edea’ at the very end would offer sufficient exposition, but that dialogue is on a timer, and I couldn’t add nearly as much as I had originally wanted.
  It’s clear from your feedback that I should work on Odine’s monologue. Our understanding of the entire conclusion rests on his explanation of the events that are to follow. This was a big problem with the vanilla plot, and it’s obviously a struggle for me to overcome. Odine’s monologue is already very long and very dense, and I’m not super excited that I may need to make it even longer.
  I’ll work on making Odine more confident in his conclusions, and more explicit about what he knows. I think this is the only way the player will get all the necessary information.

 Regarding Ultimecia’s origin, I had always meant for it to be a bit mysterious, primarily because I didn’t really see a way for anyone to ever learn the truth. (I guess I’ll probably have to write that Odine learned that information from Adel, too). I never really decided on one interpretation over another, and I think that at a certain point, it becomes a distinction without a difference. But I had hoped that by providing a certain amount of explanation, while still leaving it open-ended, it would retain an intriguing sense of mystery.

I really tried to take my time with the Odine monologue scene and I even reset the game to re-read a couple parts to fully understand. It is very long, but for me, I really wanted to soak up that knowledge like a sponge. Your new Disc 3 Edea dialogue is well done--I wonder if Edea could offer any further details re: Ultimecia/Succession? Or is the idea that she's really in the dark about some of the in-depth details that Odine knows?

[dillez]

Does this conflict with any other mods? Can I use this with ragnarok gameplay mod etc?

[Kandy_Man]

I know. If I wasn’t more interested in making this mod as compatible as possible with gameplay mods, I would absolutely change ALL battle dialogue.

I'd be open to a version of the mod where you do all the changes you want even if it is incompatible with other mods, just saying  The only mod I ever use is the music mod so to play your rewrite exactly as you wanted it to be would be amazing

[zenebazh]

Hi,
I came here to spice up my gazillionth ff8 playthrough with some graphical mods and came upon your story mod.
...and I was not disappointed!!!

Great Job!!!!
You made a really beautiful and coherent retelling of one of my most beloved games.
It kinda makes me wanna do a german version of this (but I have huge writing project already going on, so better not )

Nonetheless I really wanna give you feedback:

What I love

Spoiler: show

 

• if there is one plot point everybody agrees is effed-up in this, its the amnesia thing. Thanks for getting rid of it. Making everybody being aware of their orphanage past gives all the characters much more depth and the story suddenly feels more modern and subtle. With Selphie and Xell mentioning it early in the game you managed to make the plot point intriguing untill its full reveal later. The whole courtyard scene becomes even more of an emotional character moment for everyone than in vanilla, highlighting their different experiences as war orphans. This is a good grown-up storytelling!
• Emphazizing the whole cold-war situation really enriches the worlds lore and setting. It ties in thematically with the characters mentioned above war orphan status and gives more relevancy to the conflicts in Dollet, Timber and Deling. Although it was always referenced in vanilla, making it more prominent in the main story just raises the stakes for the player to engage in the world.
  
• Giving Seifer a less vague motivation. Its still a romantic dream, but with more substantial activism in there. Also more mention of him actually leading the galbadian troops highlights the mirror image to Squall as executives of Edea an Cid respectively.
• Speaking of Cid: His nice-guy persona as the principal of a para-military school always felt out of place in vanila. You created a very interesting dynamic between him and squall that gives both characters more layers.
• It always felt odd to me that the whole game is about sorceresses and their enormous powers, but for some reason Ellone wasn't one of them. Thanks for fixing this and also tying in the games uniqe Junctioning mechanic into the story and lore with Ellones- and Sorceress powers.
• I like how you handled Quistis alot. This character is very frustrating from a narration point as she doesnt get establishing character moment like the others past her introduction.
  I think you made the best of what was given. I like that she mentions her friendship with Seifer more detailed, which expands on both their personalities.
• Although I liked the very goofy Laguna your rewrite gave those dream sequences more meaning. It also highlights the paralells between squalls and his journey becoming leaders. Making Laguna someone who knows why he is fighting and who he wants to protect instead of just tumbling into it.

There is probably much more smaller things I liled but xant recall right now

Things I would do differently

Spoiler: show

• Rinoa coming-out as sorceress in FH really cheapens Elliones reveal a lot for me. Its just 1 hour of gameplay between it and it does not give the player and Squall enough time to digest. Up untill Elliones confession we just had heard of evil sorceresses,  thus making Squall now revalue his worldview. It doesnt feel natural for Squall to stay calm and not adressing the matter after discovering that another sorceress is in their midst.
  I actually liked how in vanilla the player can only guess Rinoas sorceress status after the Battle of the gardens but is still left in the dark untill she finally tells us at the Raganrok. You already put a lot of hints in your rewrite which would make the vanila reveal more natural and coherent already, without losing the arc of anticipation it already had.
• Overcomplicating the White Seeds origin. I dont see any contradictions with them being dispatched by Edea to keep Ellione safe. This explains much better why Laguna wasn't abel to find her again. Instead of thinking she is dead.
• Your other big rewrite is the Time Compression. Besides the poor execution and explaination, I hadn t such a huge problem with that aspect from vanila, though I understand why others had.
   I like your concept of this ancestor-sorceress power source (reminds me of the Bene Geseritt in Dune), but the way you deal with Ultimecia actually worsens the problem people had with her to begin with. I get that you wanted to keep it ambigous with what she actually is, which would have worked in good Final Fantasy Tradition of a bizarre looking diabolo-ex machina. But she has a very distinct design that gets introduced earlier in the game, which makes it unsatisfying that she is just a personigication of a hive mind. Making her a witch of the past makes more sense with the final dungeon and Ellione junctioning them to the past. Question would still linger why she choose to intervine now? Was she already controling Adel? Was Edea the first who was weak enough to succumb to her? Does the discovery of the lunatic pandora affected it? Pushing Ultimecias introduction by Edea at the start of disc 3 to Odyne at the end is might the reason the explanation feels so cramped

I hope this is helpful in any way. I wish you happy holidays

[Percival]

@FatherMcKenzie
 I've just uploaded the latest update, which includes all of your corrections!

[Percival]

@dillez
  In regards to Ragnarok, as I have said before, Succession is compatible with anything that doesn't change the field.fs files. That makes it compatible with almost all graphical mods, and around 85% of Ragnarok.

  I use Ragnarok regularly, and love it, and Succession is compatible with all of the battle related changes, and character/ability changes. But any event related changes (extra battles, quests, item rewards, drawpoints, card locations) are, very sadly, not compatible at this point.
 
  I do, however, plan to soon release a compatibility version of Martial Law. It is a re-balanced version that plays well with Ragnarok. It is the version I currently use.

[Percival]

I'd be open to a version of the mod where you do all the changes you want even if it is incompatible with other mods, just saying  The only mod I ever use is the music mod so to play your rewrite exactly as you wanted it to be would be amazing

  That's tempting, but it would really be less than a dozen lines at most, and the only plot critical ones would likely be from Ultimecia at the end of the game. Probably not worth anyone's time. Making a version for the Remaster, and a fully compatible Ragnarok version, are far higher on my list.

[Percival]

Spoiler: show

I can't really think of an explanation either, aside from (1) Rinoa saving his life (2) Edea spares his life to extract information or (3) Squall is dead theory. It's a tough one. Maybe #2 is Occam's razor.

  I just updated Seifer's dialogue in the cell with Squall, right after Squall wakes up. I sort of took the approach of option 2, not because Edea needs information, but in light of the offer Seifer makes Squall. It's not a full explanation, more of a throw away line that avoids the 'how' in favor of answering the 'why'. It feels like a bit of a concession, but I'm trying to work with what I've been given.

Spoiler: show

Seifer
”Squall...?  What's wrong?
 Haven't you recovered, yet?“
Seifer
”Are you surprised to be
 alive?“
Seifer
”The Sorceress made sure
 to avoid a fatal blow.“
Seifer
”Trust me, if she had wanted
 you dead, you would be.“
Seifer
”You're not entirely useless
 to her...at least, not yet.“

Seifer
”Take him!“

[goat]

Wow.

I finished FFVIII and it was fantastic with your mod.

I have to admit that I'm happy I used it. I was watching my GF play through the rest of the game, and whew.
It's just... not as good as yours. So thanks for the amazing experience. I'll never forget it.

[Percival]

Wow.

I finished FFVIII and it was fantastic with your mod.

I have to admit that I'm happy I used it. I was watching my GF play through the rest of the game, and whew.
It's just... not as good as yours. So thanks for the amazing experience. I'll never forget it.

  Thank you so much!  I knew this mod would be a little out of the ordinary. I'm very glad to hear that you enjoyed it.

[Percival]

@zenebazh Thank you for all the feedback!  I was very excited to hear how much you liked it.

Things I would do differently

Rinoa/Ellone:

Spoiler: show

• Rinoa coming-out as sorceress in FH really cheapens Elliones reveal a lot for me. Its just 1 hour of gameplay between it and it does not give the player and Squall enough time to digest. Up untill Elliones confession we just had heard of evil sorceresses,  thus making Squall now revalue his worldview. It doesnt feel natural for Squall to stay calm and not adressing the matter after discovering that another sorceress is in their midst.
  

  Yes, I agree that, in terms of pacing, those two moments are too close together, and I would have changed that if I could. The problem is that there is no other appropriate moment for Rinoa to share her secret with Squall.

Spoiler: show

  I agree with you that Squall needed more time to re-evaluate his view of sorceresses. I was looking for another scene during disc 2 that would give him that opportunity, but I couldn't find one.
  Also, I never wanted for you to think of Rinoa's reveal as cheap, but I did want it to have less of an emotional impact than for Ellone. Squall idolizes Ellone, and for most of the game, he has much stronger feelings for her than for Rinoa. I wanted to make that contrast very apparent by showing how differently Squall reacts to each person's reveal.
  When Ellone tells Squall she is a sorceress, it shatters his entire conception of her, and forces him to re-evaluate how he sees the world. But when Rinoa tells Squall she is a sorceress, he thinks she's joking.
  At this point in the story, Squall doesn't value Rinoa's safety enough to be worried for her, and he doesn't think highly enough of her to realistically consider her a threat. He is also attracted to her, so he doesn't want to consider actively fighting against her. So, until something changes, he is unsure what to do, and he simply agrees to keep her secret for the time being.
  My goal was to highlight how wrong Squall was to dismiss her when we see her pivotal role in the events of the 3rd and 4th discs. This is especially true since I changed the circumstances surrounding Edea's loss of power. It is now the result of direct action that Rinoa knowingly took in an attempt to 'cure' Edea, rather than Rinoa simply being the victim of bad luck.
  Of course, please let me know if I failed to convey any of that.
(Also, which music did you have for the concert scene? If you chose anything but the full 'Irish Jig', then you got a far more truncated conversation. The 'Irish Jig is the only one that gives Rinoa the chance to argue her case for Squall's support, and it's the one I would recommend achieving.)

Rinoa:

Spoiler: show

• I actually liked how in vanilla the player can only guess Rinoas sorceress status after the Battle of the gardens but is still left in the dark untill she finally tells us at the Raganrok. You already put a lot of hints in your rewrite which would make the vanila reveal more natural and coherent already, without losing the arc of anticipation it already had.

  I'm afraid I may be misunderstanding you, but I'll add this for the sake of clarity.

Spoiler: show

  In the original game, no one is a sorceress until they inherit powers from another sorceress. Rinoa did not become a sorceress until the Garden battle, when she gained Edea's power. One of the most significant changes my mod made was to make Rinoa (and every other sorceress) a sorceress from birth.
  That is why I wasn't able to wait until the Ragnarok scene to reveal Rinoa's nature, because in my mod, her entire motivation throughout her life hinges on her being a sorceress, and suffering a massive guilt complex as a result. Unlike the original, I worked really hard to ensure that Rinoa was more than a mere 'damsel in distress'. I really hope I was able to properly convey that.
  What I had hoped to bring to culmination in the Ragnarok was far more than the revelation that Rinoa was a sorceress. I wanted to show her sense of despair that she could never live a normal life because of her 'curse'. This was a fear that had been plaguing her since she was a child, when she first discovered she was a sorceress. After seeing the problems she had caused in space (and elsewhere), she finally gave up hope. And this provides a much more personal sense of justification for her willingness to sacrifice herself for 'the good of the world'.
  I think this is by far the most impactful change to the story that I've made, especially considering how vacuous her vanilla character was. But since I haven't received any particular compliments for it, I'm starting to wonder if I utterly dropped the ball in trying to elevate Rinoa's story.

White SeeDs:

Spoiler: show

• Overcomplicating the White Seeds origin. I dont see any contradictions with them being dispatched by Edea to keep Ellione safe. This explains much better why Laguna wasn't abel to find her again. Instead of thinking she is dead.

  Yup. I'm glad you mentioned this. I didn't see a contradiction either, at first. While it doesn't create a contradiction for the plot, it does create a massive contradiction for the motivations for certain characters, namely Edea and Laguna. And please forgive me ahead of time, because this will be a bit long.

Spoiler: show

  For Edea, there is no contradiction in the original game. She met Squall in the past, and therefore began making plans to create an army that would be able to defeat her at some point in the future. Perfectly fine.
  But in my mod, Time Compression isn't a thing, and she never meets Squall in the past. Without meeting Squall, there is no good reason why Edea would ever strive to create an army to defeat her, especially given the changes I made to her backstory with Cid and the orphanage. I didn't intend this. It was just one of several unintended consequences of removing Time Compression. But it meant that I also had to change where Ellone's protectors came from.

  And for Laguna, the vanilla game has one glaring character contradiction that (in my opinion, at least) is easily as bad, if not as obvious, as the amnesia.
  Why did Laguna ever stop looking for Ellone?
  Please imagine a scenario with me. As a child, you had a father who loved you. But when you were five, he decided to send you off to live with your mother, and you never heard from him again. Then your mother passed away, and you were forced to live in an orphanage until you became an adult. Years later, you discover that he has been the president of Japan for FIFTEEN YEARS. When you ask him what he's been doing with his life, and why he never bothered trying to find you, he says this:

"Your mother was dead.
 You were missing.
 My job kept me busy."

"I was left here thinking
 about this and that
 and before I knew it,
 all this time had passed."

  THIS is how Laguna attempts to justify his utter complacency to Squall. Laguna had become the president of the most powerful country in the world, and yet he couldn't be bothered to divert any resources into continuing to look for his surrogate daughter, the girl he had already traveled across the entire world in order to rescue.
  Somehow, for over fifteen years, he couldn't be bothered to find the time or the money to have someone ask around Winhill in order to discover that Raine had died while pregnant with his child, something that every other member of Winhill most likely knew, or to find out where the kids were sent after Raine passed. I personally have the resources to hire someone who could do that for me right now, and I'm not even the president of a small country, yet.
  This, in my opinion, is not only a contradiction in Laguna's character, it is a ridiculous plot contrivance which only exists to allow the rest of the events of the story to take place.
  Laguna needed a far more definitive reason to stop looking for Ellone. That's why he had to think she was dead.

  I admit that how I accomplished this may be overly complicated, and even contrived, but at least it doesn't allow Laguna to remain a dead-beat father who was apparently indifferent to causing Squall and Ellone significant abandonment issues. Issues that serve as one of the defining aspects of both their characters for the entire game.

Ultimecia/Time Compression:

Spoiler: show

• Your other big rewrite is the Time Compression. Besides the poor execution and explaination, I hadn t such a huge problem with that aspect from vanila, though I understand why others had.
   I like your concept of this ancestor-sorceress power source (reminds me of the Bene Geseritt in Dune), but the way you deal with Ultimecia actually worsens the problem people had with her to begin with. I get that you wanted to keep it ambigous with what she actually is, which would have worked in good Final Fantasy Tradition of a bizarre looking diabolo-ex machina. But she has a very distinct design that gets introduced earlier in the game, which makes it unsatisfying that she is just a personigication of a hive mind. Making her a witch of the past makes more sense with the final dungeon and Ellione junctioning them to the past. Question would still linger why she choose to intervine now? Was she already controling Adel? Was Edea the first who was weak enough to succumb to her? Does the discovery of the lunatic pandora affected it? Pushing Ultimecias introduction by Edea at the start of disc 3 to Odyne at the end is might the reason the explanation feels so cramped

  I think I agree with your first point. I don't have a problem with Time Compression as much in theory as I do with how it was explained and implemented. (Though, as a rule, I would try to avoid time travel in any story unless it was a story specifically about time travel, because otherwise it invariably becomes deus ex machina.)

Spoiler: show

  I definitely agree about how cramped it feels at the very end. It was and continues to be my greatest disappointment with my mod. I had originally intended to keep Ultimecia's reveal where it was, with Edea's scene at the start of disc 3. But I wanted to offer more information about Seifer and the Lunatic Pandora, as well as focus the scene on Rinoa's plight and Squall's reaction to it. I think this was a very good decision, especially considering how much praise I've received for that scene specifically.
  But, in order to keep THAT scene from getting too cramped, I had to push back discussion of Ultimecia all the way to Odine. This is because the plot moves at lightning speed as soon as you get to Esthar. This is great for pacing, but awful for establishing a final villain to an epic tale. This was just as much of an issue with the vanilla story, given how poorly Ultimecia was explained by Edea in the first place. My struggle in this area exposes the structural problems that already existed in the original story.
  What I really want is an extra scene with Odine and Edea discussing sorcery, right after they get to Esthar, before they go to space. (I still don't see any justification for why Squall was allowed to take Rinoa to space in the first place. It was a waste of resources and an obvious danger to everyone. Practically speaking, Rinoa and Edea should have been confined and monitored until Laguna and Ellone returned. And Odine should have used that time to study them both and explain everything he knew to Squall. Of course, then we wouldn't have had all that fun in space.) Unfortunately, I have to work with what we have, not what would I wish for.
  I've got another idea. Would you be willing to accept a data log entry at Squall's desk that explains everything in detail? (Just kidding!)

  I am working on a revision of Odine's monologue, and I'll release it as soon as I am able. And thanks again for all the very astute feedback!  It's been highly valuable, and has helped me clarify my perspective.

[zenebazh]

Thanks for taking the time to reply to feedback!

Spoiler: show

  I agree with you that Squall needed more time to re-evaluate his view of sorceresses. I was looking for another scene during disc 2 that would give him that opportunity, but I couldn't find one.
  Also, I never wanted for you to think of Rinoa's reveal as cheap, but I did want it to have less of an emotional impact than for Ellone. Squall idolizes Ellone, and for most of the game, he has much stronger feelings for her than for Rinoa. I wanted to make that contrast very apparent by showing how differently Squall reacts to each person's reveal.
  When Ellone tells Squall she is a sorceress, it shatters his entire conception of her, and forces him to re-evaluate how he sees the world. But when Rinoa tells Squall she is a sorceress, he thinks she's joking.
  At this point in the story, Squall doesn't value Rinoa's safety enough to be worried for her, and he doesn't think highly enough of her to realistically consider her a threat. He is also attracted to her, so he doesn't want to consider actively fighting against her. So, until something changes, he is unsure what to do, and he simply agrees to keep her secret for the time being.
  My goal was to highlight how wrong Squall was to dismiss her when we see her pivotal role in the events of the 3rd and 4th discs. This is especially true since I changed the circumstances surrounding Edea's loss of power. It is now the result of direct action that Rinoa knowingly took in an attempt to 'cure' Edea, rather than Rinoa simply being the victim of bad luck.
  Of course, please let me know if I failed to convey any of that.
(Also, which music did you have for the concert scene? If you chose anything but the full 'Irish Jig', then you got a far more truncated conversation. The 'Irish Jig is the only one that gives Rinoa the chance to argue her case for Squall's support, and it's the one I would recommend achieving.)

I get your point and- dont get me wrong-  the dialogue is written very plausible and consistent for their characterizations and delivers what you meant to deliver (I just had the 'Eyes on Me' part, but I traced back the other dialogues via deling).
It is just , as you said yourself, more of an pacing issue.

Spoiler: show

I always felt the FH Scene served more to further establish Squalls character than Rinoas (also in-universe the whole concert is about Squall).
Focusing the scene on Rinoa being a sorceress only for it not be a major subject until the start of CD3 feels odd. I get that you wanted it to be coming up earlier, because the nature of sorceress is different in your rewrite, but it seems out-of-character for Rinoa to torpetize a romantic moment like this (especially telling Squall to get more loose seconds before) by getting all serious and vulnerable in outing herself.

Maybe the  reveal would fit in at the discussion with Edea (when she is telling him that Rinoa took her powers by choice) to imply that she is a sorceress, with Squall being aggressively ignorant on that idea in  this moment. His walk with Rinoa on the tracks to Esthar  would made him realize that fact and being remorseful for not seeing the signs way earlier.
I dont think it would hurt consistency-wise with your rewrite.

Spoiler: show

  In the original game, no one is a sorceress until they inherit powers from another sorceress. Rinoa did not become a sorceress until the Garden battle, when she gained Edea's power. One of the most significant changes my mod made was to make Rinoa (and every other sorceress) a sorceress from birth.
  That is why I wasn't able to wait until the Ragnarok scene to reveal Rinoa's nature, because in my mod, her entire motivation throughout her life hinges on her being a sorceress, and suffering a massive guilt complex as a result. Unlike the original, I worked really hard to ensure that Rinoa was more than a mere 'damsel in distress'. I really hope I was able to properly convey that.
  What I had hoped to bring to culmination in the Ragnarok was far more than the revelation that Rinoa was a sorceress. I wanted to show her sense of despair that she could never live a normal life because of her 'curse'. This was a fear that had been plaguing her since she was a child, when she first discovered she was a sorceress. After seeing the problems she had caused in space (and elsewhere), she finally gave up hope. And this provides a much more personal sense of justification for her willingness to sacrifice herself for 'the good of the world'.
  I think this is by far the most impactful change to the story that I've made, especially considering how vacuous her vanilla character was. But since I haven't received any particular compliments for it, I'm starting to wonder if I utterly dropped the ball in trying to elevate Rinoa's story.

Sorry maybe it was also unclear how I worded it 

Spoiler: show

I really enjoyed how you portrayed Rinoa for the reasons you mentioned above. You gave her a more personal (and tragic) reasons to join the Timber Owls, traveling with the Seeds or  helping people in general. It gets clearer that her cheeriness is more about compensating her thoughtfulness and fear, instead of being a 'girly' brat like she came off sometimes in the original game.

Also the hints for her knowing to be a sorceress are placed very good and nuanced (loved how it gave the whole Odyne-Bangle affair such relevancy!)
I think your direction with her is wonderful and very elevated. Because she is such a pivotal character in terms of story relevancy (and screen-time for that matter) people are probably more nitpicky with her rewrite

  Yup. I'm glad you mentioned this. I didn't see a contradiction either, at first. While it doesn't create a contradiction for the plot, it does create a massive contradiction for the motivations for certain characters, namely Edea and Laguna. And please forgive me ahead of time, because this will be a bit long.

Spoiler: show

  For Edea, there is no contradiction in the original game. She met Squall in the past, and therefore began making plans to create an army that would be able to defeat her at some point in the future. Perfectly fine.
  But in my mod, Time Compression isn't a thing, and she never meets Squall in the past. Without meeting Squall, there is no good reason why Edea would ever strive to create an army to defeat her, especially given the changes I made to her backstory with Cid and the orphanage. I didn't intend this. It was just one of several unintended consequences of removing Time Compression. But it meant that I also had to change where Ellone's protectors came from.

  And for Laguna, the vanilla game has one glaring character contradiction that (in my opinion, at least) is easily as bad, if not as obvious, as the amnesia.
  Why did Laguna ever stop looking for Ellone?
  Please imagine a scenario with me. As a child, you had a father who loved you. But when you were five, he decided to send you off to live with your mother, and you never heard from him again. Then your mother passed away, and you were forced to live in an orphanage until you became an adult. Years later, you discover that he has been the president of Japan for FIFTEEN YEARS. When you ask him what he's been doing with his life, and why he never bothered trying to find you, he says this:

"Your mother was dead.
 You were missing.
 My job kept me busy."

"I was left here thinking
 about this and that
 and before I knew it,
 all this time had passed."

  THIS is how Laguna attempts to justify his utter complacency to Squall. Laguna had become the president of the most powerful country in the world, and yet he couldn't be bothered to divert any resources into continuing to look for his surrogate daughter, the girl he had already traveled across the entire world in order to rescue.
  Somehow, for over fifteen years, he couldn't be bothered to find the time or the money to have someone ask around Winhill in order to discover that Raine had died while pregnant with his child, something that every other member of Winhill most likely knew, or to find out where the kids were sent after Raine passed. I personally have the resources to hire someone who could do that for me right now, and I'm not even the president of a small country, yet.
  This, in my opinion, is not only a contradiction in Laguna's character, it is a ridiculous plot contrivance which only exists to allow the rest of the events of the story to take place.
  Laguna needed a far more definitive reason to stop looking for Ellone. That's why he had to think she was dead.

  I admit that how I accomplished this may be overly complicated, and even contrived, but at least it doesn't allow Laguna to remain a dead-beat father who was apparently indifferent to causing Squall and Ellone significant abandonment issues. Issues that serve as one of the defining aspects of both their characters for the entire game.

Makes total sense now. Thanks for clarifying!

Spoiler: show

I first thought that he and Ellone could still be in contact though, but this would contradict with Lagunna not knowing about Squall.
But as you noted, the whole motivation of Laguna becoming president is lacking in the first place.

I think I agree with your first point. I don't have a problem with Time Compression as much in theory as I do with how it was explained and implemented. (Though, as a rule, I would try to avoid time travel in any story unless it was a story specifically about time travel, because otherwise it invariably becomes deus ex machina.)

Spoiler: show

  I definitely agree about how cramped it feels at the very end. It was and continues to be my greatest disappointment with my mod. I had originally intended to keep Ultimecia's reveal where it was, with Edea's scene at the start of disc 3. But I wanted to offer more information about Seifer and the Lunatic Pandora, as well as focus the scene on Rinoa's plight and Squall's reaction to it. I think this was a very good decision, especially considering how much praise I've received for that scene specifically.
  But, in order to keep THAT scene from getting too cramped, I had to push back discussion of Ultimecia all the way to Odine. This is because the plot moves at lightning speed as soon as you get to Esthar. This is great for pacing, but awful for establishing a final villain to an epic tale. This was just as much of an issue with the vanilla story, given how poorly Ultimecia was explained by Edea in the first place. My struggle in this area exposes the structural problems that already existed in the original story.
  What I really want is an extra scene with Odine and Edea discussing sorcery, right after they get to Esthar, before they go to space. (I still don't see any justification for why Squall was allowed to take Rinoa to space in the first place. It was a waste of resources and an obvious danger to everyone. Practically speaking, Rinoa and Edea should have been confined and monitored until Laguna and Ellone returned. And Odine should have used that time to study them both and explain everything he knew to Squall. Of course, then we wouldn't have had all that fun in space.) Unfortunately, I have to work with what we have, not what would I wish for.
  I've got another idea. Would you be willing to accept a data log entry at Squall's desk that explains everything in detail? (Just kidding!)

I see what you mean

Spoiler: show

Yea the whole space detour is a really contrived plot development in the game. The struggle is to find any plausible  interest for Esthar to send them up there (Lagunas orders?).
I dont know yet how much you can insert new text boxes via deling, but maybe letting Ultimecia speaking some words for herself during the Flashback in the Space Pod could help? Nothing too expositionary but to get a better grasp on what she is and how she acts. Maybe even Ellone recognizes her as the Avatar of Succession or something?

Should be fine if you put everything in Quistis Tutorial

[eXistenZe]

Hey there.
Looking at my original comments on this mod, I sounded like a dick. Sorry.
Did you finish the mod as you intended?
I'm guessing this mod will conflict with Ragnarok Rebalancing Mod, correct?
Looking to play FF8 again, but with some new challenges. Perhaps a new story would be great too.

[LeonhartGR]

I always felt that Quistis is more of a friend who wants to be a *good friend* to Squall.

More like a friend with benefits I would say... She also needs Squall to share her issues with him and demands his attention then getting shocked by his complete refusal to relate.

[Percival]

Hey there.
Looking at my original comments on this mod, I sounded like a dick. Sorry.
Did you finish the mod as you intended?

  No worries!  I knew this mod was going to be a little out of the box, and not necessarily what most people were looking for.
  I would definitely say that, for the most part, I have wildly exceeded my own ambitions for this mod. But there are a few small challenges I haven't been able to overcome, and other posters here have done a good job of calling attention to them (and I greatly appreciate it).

[Percival]

I'm guessing this mod will conflict with Ragnarok Rebalancing Mod, correct?
Looking to play FF8 again, but with some new challenges. Perhaps a new story would be great too.

  In regards to Ragnarok, as I have said before, Succession is compatible with anything that doesn't change the field.fs files. That makes it compatible with almost all graphical mods, and around 85% of Ragnarok.

  I use Ragnarok regularly, and love it, and Succession is compatible with all of the battle related changes, and character/ability/junction changes. But any event related changes (extra battles, quests, item rewards, drawpoints, card locations) are, very sadly, not compatible at this point.

[Percival]

She also needs Squall to share her issues with him and demands his attention then getting shocked by his complete refusal to relate.

  I know, right!? 
  I worked really hard to broaden the tension between the two of them during that scene. I wanted to give them something more tangible to disagree about, rather than just their feelings for each other, while doing my best to maintaining that same emotional dynamic between them.
  Let me know what you think!

[LeonhartGR]

  Let me know what you think!

"Whatever..." 

Honestly... I will deal with any FFVIII mods as soon as someone manages to find a way to import custom designs like those awesome renders I saw in that other thread and a proper Squall model other than the modified ones. Those mods actually looked pretty dope though, honestly. But I'm weird... so... whatever! 

P.S.: Also have to complete that retranslation of mine one day...  I will try to do the same with yours after I'm done but that will take such a long time! I've currently fell in a loop vortex!

[Juskajo]

*Edit - nvm.

I randomly bought the remastered on Switch after having not played this in ages. I came across this nodding forum and started poking around your field.fs...   

I gotta tell ya, I actually shelled out another ten bucks for the 2013 Steam release just so I play the game with your script!
Back in '99, I always felt there was a decent story somewhere in this game and that it just wasn't being told quite right. 

I have a high level Ff14 character that I've been neglecting all week over this.  Well done!

[dmosey]

Just found your mod, this looks awesome, such a good idea to tweak the story and dialogue like you've done. I love this game, but the dialogue had so many issues or just felt sloppily thrown together. Looking forward to trying it out a lot.  This plus ragnarok or some sort of difficulty mod will really help for a fresh play through experience!

[dmosey]

  In regards to Ragnarok, as I have said before, Succession is compatible with anything that doesn't change the field.fs files. That makes it compatible with almost all graphical mods, and around 85% of Ragnarok.

  I use Ragnarok regularly, and love it, and Succession is compatible with all of the battle related changes, and character/ability/junction changes. But any event related changes (extra battles, quests, item rewards, drawpoints, card locations) are, very sadly, not compatible at this point.

Oh man, just saw this, right the field.fs files. Would it be a big undertaking for the creator of Ragnarok to insert your dialogue in their mod and compile the field files?