Author Topic: Final Fantasy VII Original FMV question... (Read 33338 times)

xeriouxi · « **Reply #25 on:** 2003-09-24 11:10:07 »

Hi!

I've tried uncompressed .avi files from the PSX .str files before in FFVII PC, and there is no lag at all!

The PC .avi files use the horrible compression that makes the movies look very poor. The uncompressed .avi files from the PSX version don't have the 'distortion' of the PC ones.

xeriouxi.

Cyberman · « **Reply #26 on:** 2003-09-24 23:02:01 »

If you have a fast hard disk I suppose it works fine.

The artifacts you are refering too are a result of not every frame being redrawn. Most codecs save space by only updating sections of the frame that changed. This can lead to some interesting artifacts. The way to manage this is through adjusting your KEY frames. For most AVI's they use this rediculously huge key frame setting of 3600 seconds (an hour) reduce this to 1 second and you are less likely to see artifacts. Your file size does increase though.

If you have a fast machine compression will make the AVI in general faster.

Cyb

Rubicant_II · « **Reply #27 on:** 2003-09-24 23:58:01 »

Quote from: xeriouxi

The PC .avi files use the horrible compression that makes the movies look very poor. The uncompressed .avi files from the PSX version don't have the 'distortion' of the PC ones.

Duck truemotion gives the avi's no "distortion" at all. They look a little dithered, because that's the nature of the codec. Keep in mind that the PC ones are (most likely) derived from the ones from the psx version, so no matter what you do you will not be able to exceed the quality by simply using no compression with the ones ripped from the psx version. Certain movies look like crap in both the versions, and there is nothing you can really do to make them look better. You can't run them at a higher resolution because ff7pc just doesn't allow that. I also doubt that the sound runs in sync with the video because you must render the videos with the correct sound codec (none, uncompressed). Just to help you out, I'll clue you in. 8-bit stereo, 22050hz, uncompressed, and your sound won't jump out of sync. Good luck, though.

But once you get done with this hard work, what's it all for? You're just playing the game with these so-called "new fangled 'high-res' videos for final fantasy VII"

....all by yourself.

Skillster/RedSarg99 · « **Reply #28 on:** 2003-09-25 06:45:42 »

when u convert them from the psx videos, couldnt u encode them into duck codec then?
or try putting them in indeo5 or raw avi and get them on ur HDD
I do remember ripping the avis off PSX version, because they were 32bit, and slightly better finish in most respects, but getting them to play with FF7pc made me quit that

Rubicant_II · « **Reply #29 on:** 2003-09-25 07:20:52 »

Of course you can convert back to duck, or whatever the hell you want. It works all right with indeo 5, I can guarantee it. The fact remains that in the long run the ones ripped from the psx don't even look better, even when uncompressed. Remember the compression-tainted blocks that tend to show up at the beginning of c_scene1.avi? The same thing happens with the version ripped from the psx.

Comparing duck compression (the originals that came with the game) to indeo 5.0, I find that both are acceptable. Duck looks a little dithered, but it is really, really sharp. On the other hand, Indeo looks really smoothed out, but things look just a tad blurry.

xeriouxi · « **Reply #30 on:** 2003-11-05 11:13:04 »

Hi!

When I refer to the 'original' FMV files, I mean from the PSX FF7. There's a huge leap in quality. What do you mean that the Duck codec is better? The codec compressed the already compressed FMV from the PSX FF7. Video is way smoother on the ripped movies, and none of the 'dithering' is visible. Sorry to sound like I am constantly arguing, but the quality is way better than the stupid compressed ones. And yes, of course I will be playing it own my own. I can enjoy the experience better with higher quality movies...

xeriouxi.

Rubicant_II · « **Reply #31 on:** 2003-11-05 16:12:46 »

Quote from: xeriouxi

When I refer to the 'original' FMV files, I mean from the PSX FF7. There's a huge leap in quality.

R-Really? W-Well I thought you were talking about this other thing completely d-different. I thought you were just transferring the avi's that came with ff7pc and turning them into uncompressed files. Oh, silly me!!! Sarcasm. I know exactly what I am talking about when I see something like...

Quote from: xeriouxi

After being annoyed constantly by the poor codec used for compression of the Final Fantasy VII PC movies, I have decided to rip the originals off the PSX discs.

So as soon as I saw this, I had a reason to tell you that you are wasting your time. So sorry.

Quote from: xeriouxi

What do you mean that the Duck codec is better?

I never said that. I said that you would probably be better off using a compression codec to save space on the hard drive.

Quote from: xeriouxi

The codec compressed the already compressed FMV from the PSX FF7.

I don't even know what that means.

Quote from: xeriouxi

Video is way smoother on the ripped movies, and none of the 'dithering' is visible.

Now when you say "smoother", do you mean "smooth" like a baby's ass, or "smooth" like a dude who just shaved his beard off and managed to leave stubble? Look, I've ripped them, too, and there just may be a slight difference in the fps. So maybe the PSX versions were in 30fps. But I really doubt it. IIRC, the fps of the ff7pc videos are 24fps. Which is acceptable. So maybe you are in fact dealing with more (useless) frames to make it look "smoother" from the psx version. Or else you're just ripping them that way.

Quote from: xeriouxi

Sorry to sound like I am constantly arguing, but the quality is way better than the stupid compressed ones.

It's just a trash statement saying the quality is "way better". You have absolutely nothing to back you up. Do you have pictures to show me how the psx version videos are better? I don't think so. I would have gotten pictures to prove you wrong a long time ago, but I am currently without the psx version of ff7. I gave it back to the person who I borrowed it from. But the horror of all this is that you just never back down from a futile argument. You say they're "higher quality", you say they're "smoother", but you really have not convinced me (or anyone else). You just pull these ideas of the ones ripped off the psx version being "better" out of nowhere and that's your argument. Well I don't think so. I don't...think so.

So you say that the codec used with the movies that come with ff7pc is absolutely crappy-looking. But you're the fool here who is using the ripped videos, and having them saved as uncompressed avi's (taking up massive hd space). I don't have anything against using uncompressed avi's, but it's the fact that you're taking random arbitrary statements to make it seem like the movies from the psx version are in some way better.

I'm going to come out and say it now so we don't have any further confusion. The movies that are on the psx discs are in no way higher quality! IIRC, the standard resolution for them is 320x224. The ones that are included with ff7pc are the very same resolution. I cannot possibly see the strategy behind making the versions on the psx version "better" and having the ff7pc versions be crappy on purpose. In fact, they are not better in any way. As I have said before, there are screw-ups that appear in both the ff7pc and psx versions. In fact, all of the video errors (such as mpeg-esque block fuzziness that appears in quickly moving scenes) from the psx versions also appear in the ff7pc versions. No surprise there. The psx versions are not better, they have never been better, they never will be better!

The ones included with ff7pc are just fine. They are derived from the psx version, which means they are on par as far as crappiness goes. You are completely wasting your time ripping them and renaming them in my book, but I am not going to stop you. I am trying to prove my point that you will get nothing from ripping them. There is nothing appealing about doing it, and there is nothing redeeming about it.

Quote from: xeriouxi

And yes, of course I will be playing it own my own. I can enjoy the experience better with higher quality movies...

Whatever. Fine. Have fun.

Aaron · « **Reply #32 on:** 2003-11-05 23:47:17 »

Rubicant... you might want to calm down a little. I dunno if its just me, but that post looks like its a little "meaner" than it needed to be.

Rubicant_II · « **Reply #33 on:** 2003-11-06 01:30:53 »

You're right. I was a bit too far in the criticism side. But I did type this at 7:45 in the morning while an annoying substitute teacher that sounded like a robot was annoying the hell out of me. When he turned his head to ask me my name his neck made this awful screeching sound. Then he asked me for oil.

Xeriouxi, If you take offense to anything, don't take it personally. I just disagree with you. But I still stand behind my argument.

But if ripping the fmv's and making them work makes you feel great, then by all means do it. It is sometimes fun to undertake projects that involve your work, and then get a chance to play with the results.

[edit]
random grammatical and wording errors.

Goku7 · « **Reply #34 on:** 2003-11-06 16:27:17 »

Quote from: xeriouxi

The codec compressed the already compressed FMV from the PSX FF7.

Quote from: Rubicant_II

I don't even know what that means.

Xeriouxi is actually correct, if only partially. If you remember, the PS1's .STR files are JPEG-compressed (yes, that's right, JPEG. Not MPEG.). So, when you when you rip them to avi, you _should_ pick up all the artifacts that may have been caused by the original PSX JPEG compression, kinda like when you use a microphone to record a low-bitrate mp3 to wav, even though the recorded/ripped sound is uncompressed, it picks up all the artifacts heard as a byproduct of the previous compression. I'm guessing that PSX movie ripping works the same way (What-you-see-is-what-you-get recording).

Dumping another codec on it might compound the image quality (or it might not), but essentially you're still seeing the effects of using two different compression codecs used on top of each other, video-artifact wise.

No, I'm not saying that the PSX movies are of higher quality -- they're not. As rubicant said, their native resolution is in the neighborhood of 320x240....the FF7pc movies are the same way, and do seem to be doing a straight stretch when the game is running in 640x480.

However.....it may yet be possible to do some sort of post-filtering in-game. What if (perhaps thru the use of one of ficedula's patch programs) tried to make FF7 use the video card's Bilinear Filtering (normally used on the polygons) on the whole scene? That should allow for some cleanup of byproducts produced by a straight stretch.

Qhimm · « **Reply #35 on:** 2003-11-06 19:07:09 »

:: looks at FF7 PSX FMVs ::
:: looks at FF7 PC FMVs ::
:: pukes ::

I deem the PSX FMVs to have substantially higher quality. The reason? As xeriouxi mentioned, for the PC port Square used the PSX movies and compressed them using an entirely different compression method, and also rendered them horribly bad in-game. In effect, we have
PC FMV = Original FMV + PSX compression artifacts + PC compression artifacts + rendering artifacts = Y-U-C-K.

The PSX FMVs, while not having any higher resolution, retain much more sharpness and color quality. The idea of using them in FF7 PC is sound, although it will prove a tad tricky to get past the rendering issues. Worst-case, it could be just as easy to make your own FF7 client. ^_^

While on the topic of using post-filtering however, I'm fairly certain that such functionality would be immensely difficult to include in a patch. Not impossible, just involving huge amounts of work.

Oh, and btw, Rubicant? You were this close to getting an official warning for that post of yours. I don't care if your teacher shot your grandmother, you will not post offensive crap here. If you're having a bad day, I suggest you take it out on someone else, somewhere else.

Cyberman · « **Reply #36 on:** 2003-11-06 20:33:58 »

If memory serves FF7 fmvs are 320x224 15fps 32000khz 16 bit stereo.
converting from 15->24 fps will give you lovely issues alone. I do have the information on SONY's Codec used in the whole mess, but I don't think that's terribly important.
320x224 to 640x480 stretch will create a few more issues.

As for rencoding to add modern settings (and adding options for it to the AVI viewer used). I think Qhimm summarized it nicely.. likely not worth the effort.

That being said.. at least there is some sort of conclusion to this, the best method would be to rerender the entire sequence for the PC, which I don't believe was done. They might have had the original movie data which would still be 320x224 at 15FPS for the encoding.. but somehow I find that unlikely because of the amount of memory to have that data in RGB or YUV format (PSX is YUV and converted to RGB in part of the MDEC decoder subsystem).
2100Kbps this comes out to be about. Just over 2megs per second. So.. for the initial movie it's about 180megs of data in YUV format or 270megs in RGB format for Raw data. There are several movies to this. It makes sense to convert the existing movies instead of paying to have them remade, it cost a lot of money to have the originals done likely and Square likely didn't want to spend more money (seems to be a trend for square

).

No matter what happens it's dubious one can improve the movies without making some compromise that will bring you back to .. what you had before hand. It might be worth a try to see if there is any improvement (I have the PSX version so .. doesn't mattter either way for me).

Cyb

Goku7 · « **Reply #37 on:** 2003-11-07 00:41:00 »

Well, what if the avi's were reencoded to playback at 15fps? If it ran good enough on the PSX (without looking like a slideshow) why not have the pc movies do the same?

It might solve some artifact effects (that whole "Key Frames" thing, etc.)...unless I've got my logic backward.

Rubicant_II · « **Reply #38 on:** 2003-11-07 07:20:38 »

Well, I don't know about doing that being the solution for the artifacts. I remember extracting the fmv for the scene where the north crater starts blowing up (lots of vibration, lots of artifacts). I used no video compression, and it ended up having the artifacts as bad as the ones that came with ff7pc.

But there is a possibility for the smoothing. With d3d, you can turn on Quincunx AA and the movies will get softened. It looks fairly decent this way. But not everyone can do it. I think maybe it's possible to do it with generic 2x...not sure. Doesn't work for me

As for the psx movies, when you have them on your HD completely uncompressed, they may look decent. However, the duck truemotion codec looks pretty dang good, still. In the long run, both forms will look crappy because they will have those stupid artifacts, no matter what you do. There will be petty differences between uncompressed versions and compressed versions, but it's the artifacts that cause every version to suck. So I'll change my opinion about this to the following: All versions of the fmv's (full motion videos) will always suck, whether they are recompressed or not. So any attempt to port them from one format to the other is in vain.

Qhimm: Sorry. Fine, I'll just never attempt to express my opinion because in some way I end up offending someone every time I do. Thank you very much, I can throw myself out.

*dusts self off*

So why exactly do I out of the blue get pissed off and write offensive crap? I don't know, maybe my mom didn't hug me enough when I was little? No, that can't be it. It's probably because I'm naturally a loudmouthed punk with a lot of anger to pass around. Yeah, that's got to be it. So why do you admins care to deal with it? Some admins/moderators would just say "get this jerk out of here" and it'd all be over. This is how I see it: you want things to be fair. Now, was it fair of me to lash out at xeriouxi for his different opinion? Well, when I first started that post I was trying to make it as humorous as possible, such as me accusing squaresoft being discriminatory against pc users, and maybe a picture of sephiroth stabbing the duck truemotion icon. But things didn't go that way. Instead, I lashed out accordingly, drunk with anger. My argument, flawless. But the words behind it were moronically concieved. So why do you bother to cope with my outbursts against other people of the boards? I think that alone is far more than I deserve.

So do I have a bad attitude? No way. I'm really not an angry person at all. People see me and they ask me if I'm sad, but I always have this mellow look on my face because I'm usually really relaxed. The problem I have is that I am too honest to the point where it's mean....and I don't think that's a good thing in the case of these forums. So it all boils down to treating people how you think you should be treated as well. Which is exactly what I seek from other people: honesty. I almost puke at the sight of people kissing ass to get something they want. It's so pointless, because it just sucks away your self-worth. You completely lose your Integrity stooping to that level.

So thanks Qhimm for being honest and telling me when I am out of line. Even though I highly doubt the robot substitute is even capable of aiming a gun at my grandmother with those rusted joints.

Sir Canealot · « **Reply #39 on:** 2003-11-07 13:01:50 »

Quote from: xeriouxi

Hi!

When I refer to the 'original' FMV files, I mean from the PSX FF7. There's a huge leap in quality. What do you mean that the Duck codec is better? The codec compressed the already compressed FMV from the PSX FF7. Video is way smoother on the ripped movies, and none of the 'dithering' is visible. Sorry to sound like I am constantly arguing, but the quality is way better than the stupid compressed ones. And yes, of course I will be playing it own my own. I can enjoy the experience better with higher quality movies...

xeriouxi.

How are you viewing the Psx FMVs? How are you comparing them to the PC FMVs? As I've said before, FFVII PC uses NO post processing, meaning the movies look very bad. They look fine when played though Windows Mediaplayer. I'm not saying the noise and artifacts in the video aren't worse than the Psx version, but there definately wont be a huge drop or gain in quality either way.
I'm also assuming the Duck True Motion Codec IS in fact better, Psx uses some form of mpeg1 compression (or as stated, some form of jpeg compression, which is mpeg1ish anyway as far as I know), Mpeg1 being about 10 years old now. Duck True Motion is still VERY old, but it's not quite as old as Mpeg1...
But it's all down to the encoding... and FFVII PCs lack of use of post processing.
Perhaps I'll rip one of the Psx FMVs later, but I'm doubting I can be bothered. I've been looking at compression semi seriously for a while now, so I shoulden't be to bad a judge.
Edit: If I bother doing this, I'll post pics.

And I'm also doubting Pc movies = Psx compression artifacts + pc compression artifacts. It makes no sense why they would create the Pc movies from the Psx movies. Why not go back to the masters of original FMVs (whatever format they are in) and create them from that. I Think the PC movies would look ever worse if they did come from the Psx fmvs.
If Square did do this, well it's just another reason to hate on Square!

And on Fps etc, I'm not really sure about it all, but the FMVs could have originally bean 15fps, interlaced to 24 fps or whatever. Where as the PCs are encoded into a progressive 24fps. Who knows, fps are complicated when it goes anywhere near TV or Console.

Quote

Rubicant... you might want to calm down a little.

STFU!!!1
Ahem.
Thankyou.

Aaron · « **Reply #40 on:** 2003-11-07 13:06:18 »

FPS? I just loaded up one of the PC movies and checked its FPS. It's definately 15, as I thought. I am pretty sure that the PSX ones are 15 as well.

xeriouxi · « **Reply #41 on:** 2003-11-07 13:53:10 »

Hi!

I'm sorry to cause a lot of anger for the other members. I feel like the blame has to fall with me for being biased, maybe?

The reason I rip then uncompressed is because I can afford the hard drive space. I never mentioned that the PSX movies had a higher frame rate, either. In fact, 15fps is the standard for many PSX games.

Anyway, sorry for upsetting you, Rubicant...

If you need proof of my observations, then I will try to post the 2 diferent versions as .jpg files. And yes, they will both be running from the actual FF7 game.

Oh, and my name 'xeriouxi' is actually meant tostart with a lower case letter. I just thought that I would say that incase anybody thought I was too lazy to do it when I registered!

xeriouxi.

Sir Canealot · « **Reply #42 on:** 2003-11-07 14:21:34 »

Does anyone know how the hell I can get VirtualDub to open FFVII PCs FMVs? It keeps giving me the error it cant open them, I have installed the damn codec. the movies play in normal media players fine.

The FMVs do look diffrent, but I cant really tell in which way till I get the PCs FMVs open in VirtualDub :/

The Psx FMVs SOUND better though. Audio is MUCH cleaner on the FMV from the Psx disks.

xeriouxi · « **Reply #43 on:** 2003-11-07 14:29:48 »

Hi!

I think that VirtualDub can only handle standard .avi files if I remember correctly. I had no problem with the movies from the PSX version when I had them uncompressed. Try to decode one into a pure uncompressed .avi file and try that to see if it works. This is a suggestion, however. I don't really use VirtualDub. I have only used it once or twice!

xeriouxi.

Rubicant_II · « **Reply #44 on:** 2003-11-07 16:40:51 »

Quote from: Sir Canealot

The Psx FMVs SOUND better though. Audio is MUCH cleaner on the FMV from the Psx disks.

That's because the PC ones are in 8-bit stereo, 22050hz, but uncompressed. I would be damn well surprised if they sounded better for a moment. Now, why are they in this format? Well, from my observation, it is the only way the sound will not go out of sync while playing in-game.

So for one aspect the psx files may be worth ripping: the audio. However, IIRC, when you rip the file with PSX-MC(multi-converter) the sound kind of gets cut off at the end. It's been awhile since I've done any ripping, so I'm not 100% it still does this in newer versions PSX-MC. So maybe the audio from the psx fmv's are a few Hz larger in quality....okey dokey. We still won't find a cure to those wretched motion artifacts, unless we break into squaresoft's HQ and steal the originals.

I would have to disagree with you canealot; they had to have gotten the PC fmv's from the PSX version. Why else do all of the artifacts from the psx fmv's appear the exact same way in the PC fmv's? I have tested this out with c_scene1 (comparing both versions), and various other fmv's that have noticable artifacts. Sadly, the reason became clear to me why it matches up -_- . Well, of course Duck Truemotion is a better compression form than the one used on the ff7 psx fmv's. Since it appears the people who worked on ff7pc decided it would be a good idea to just take some badly-compressed movies and compress them with a badass codec, we get a resulting gigabyte of fmv's that could have been decent-looking. Oh, only if someone working on the project realized how bad it looked.

But you see, they fit the entire game (fmv's and all) on 3 entire discs in the psx version. Since the pc version had compressed video anyways and would need to have 4 discs, they may as well have re-rendered the fmv's directly to duck truemotion. So instead, they would have almost zero artifacts, and the movies would look pretty nice (because truemotion is cool). They knew the compressed versions would be larger no matter what. So the entire concept of taking the PSX fmv's and re-encoding them was just one entire bottleneck. Talk about bad planning.

Or else another reason to hate square. As for virtualdub not being able to open ff7 fmv's, I think that's pretty fruity. I just tried it and it says it needs a VFW-compatible codec, not any of the directshow codecs (which I believe TM20 is). However, I can open them up just fine in adobe premiere...

ficedula · « **Reply #45 on:** 2003-11-07 16:57:18 »

There *are* TM20 (Duck) VFW codecs - just they aren't easy to find. The FF7 installer only puts a DirectShow decoder on.

I think if you get the Duck developer kit, then that has a VFW codec, but that's probably going to be very hard to find nowadays.

xeriouxi: If you do post screenshots, JPG isn't the best format to compare artifacts so, since it is lossy...

PNG would be better: it'll be bigger, but at least it's lossless so there's no argument over quality.

Rubicant_II · « **Reply #46 on:** 2003-11-07 17:10:16 »

Yes, I finally got it. You can look at the videos in virtualdub using this package. I actually asked duck for a developer's kit a long time ago, but since it was a trial version I never bothered to mess around with it much. So yes, this file is completely legitimate.

*you didn't hear this from me, but you can still compress videos just fine, as long as you compress using the archiver*. And, you can view them in Virtualdub because it adds in the ability for VFW support.

Sir Canealot · « **Reply #47 on:** 2003-11-07 20:42:19 »

Hmm. Perhaps they ARE recompressed Psx videos. I wanted to check the movies working in virtual dub to conform this :/

Who was responsible for FFVII PC? Was it Square Soft (japan) or Square (USA). I'm guessing it was was Square and they didn't have access to the original masters/data/whatever they hell they are, so they HAD to recompress from the Psx version.

For FFVIII I'm pretty sure they rendered in 320/240 (for Psx/Pc) and 640/480 (pc) as they were making the game. God knows why Square Soft did this, but good on em for one of their few good deads

I'd say the best bet we'd have for decent movies in FFVII PC, is rip them from the Psx disk (for the better audio) and re-encode them to Duck TrueMotion (unless another codec would be better and will work with FFVII PC), but with heavy filters on (not that I know how much you can filter a Duck True Motion encode, I know little about advanced encoding heh). I'm in a fansub group, I could ask our encoder if he knows anything much. Filters from what I know of Mpeg4 could get rid of all of artifacts easily and probebly sharpen the movies up. Colours could be ajusted too. Ajusting the colour and sharpening can work VERY well for anime. Of course, as said, this would be a lot of work...
Of course the movies running in 16bit colour in game also hurts them... has there been any progress on the 32bit patch recently?

Goku7 · « **Reply #48 on:** 2003-11-07 21:43:24 »

Maybe we're going about this the wrong way.

Has anyone thought about hacking DirectShow itself, similar to how DirectMusic was hacked to allow access to non-DLS synths for FF8?

If possible, we should see if we could write a modified vesion of DirectShow that automatically tries to do post-filtering on the image (Bilinear filitering, for the sake of example), whenever it's accessed, regardless of the codec?

That way, when FF7 tries to access the movies, it'll think its just doing what its supposed to do (and it is, since its not ff7 that's being modified, its the API interface), and not complain when the post-filtering is done.

Rubicant_II · « **Reply #49 on:** 2003-11-07 22:03:15 »

(TM20 = Duck Truemotion 2.0)

Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't there some sort of filtering that goes on with TM20-encoded avi's that are being played in ff7? If you play a TM20-encoded avi in windows media player, it looks all right, but not all that great. However, when you play it in ff7, the colors suddenly seem a bit more clear. It becomes a bit dithered, but it looks a lot nicer when it is motion. Here, I have made a comparison. I made one screenshot from a TM20 movie being played in ff7, and the other is a frame export from adobe premiere (of the same video, of course).

Played in FF7
Played in WMP

I don't know...maybe ff7 has a built-in filtering thing for duck truemotion already