SHIT!

[Qhimm]

What stirred the strongest emotions for me was when then showed pictures of people in mid-east countries going out to the streets to celebrate the "successful attack on the US". Everyone from small kids to grandmothers were out, waving flags and stuff. It really got my blood boiling, how the FUCK can they celebrate the deaths of thousands of innocents?! I don't care if they think the US equals Satan himself, how can anyone harbor so little respect for human life? Even the children... it just proves the world is not a healthy place in which to live.

...I'm just not thinking straight anymore.

[Alhexx]

Like Fice said, you're not going to attack an army - you're attacking small groups. And these groups are not interested in attacking your army - their aim are the civilians...and that's one of the biggest problems...

Like a friend of mine said: The war, as we know it from WW(2), is past. The new 'War' will be terrorism or 'cyberterrorism'...

- Alhexx

[chowderhead]

I know in our own Civil War, The North used  what they referred to at the time as 'total war'-and though Yankee soldiers didn't go around shooting women and children, they did burn homes, destroyed crops and livestock, basically starved the civilian populace (I believed they called the Shenendoah valley a 'wasteland').  In effect, civilians suffered as much as the armies did, if not more.  Lee's army; deprived of it's breadbasket, of new recruits willing to continue the fight, and without the backing of a people willing (or able) to continue to fight eventually just crumbled.

It's a horrible thought, but this would probobly be the only way to win something like this-if it was to come to war with a country, not just a terrorist group.  If you deprive them of the methods and materials of war, they cannot make war-or something like that.

How carefully did we choose targets when we bombed Germany in the second world war?  You aim for targets, military targets, but weren't civilians targets as well-in a more indirect (or maybe direct-I've never studied WW2 that closely) fashion?  And with the two atomic bombs dropped on Japan, how many civilians died there-too many to count?

Bush said last night that countries who harbor terrorist will be targets just as much as the terrorists themselves.

I'm just numb from watching all this.  If we go to war over this, I hope we are prepared to do what it takes to win...

and may God have mercy on our souls.

[The SaiNt]

Let me tell you that these terrorists have definately hit America where it hurts most. Not only did they end up killing a large amount of innocent people & injuring a lot more, they actually have managed to ensure a total collapse of the American economy.

Think about it, when this incident happens, what industry will be hit the hardest? The first companies to be in panic will be the insurance compaines. And where do insurance companies invest their money? In banks and the stock market. The moment they get the chance, they'll be selling of as much as they can. The terror & insecurity felt by the residents there will only worsen the situation more.

The task of hijacking a single plane is no easy task, mind you. To think they actually managed 4!
Their plan was definately well thought of and after thinking for a while, it isn't just about attention, these people really mean business.
This could easily be a threat or warning of some sort.
Think about it, President Bush didn't seem all that surprised that something of such a large scale happened.

[L. Spiro]

I do not venture to the General Forum often.

Before I make my simple statement, I must explain one thing.
I am an emotionless being.  For this I consider myself lucky, for I will never feel the pain others say they have when loved ones die.

But I acknowledge that others allow their feelings to get to them, so the only point I have to make here now may seem a little cold to them.  Just remember: I can’t help it.

My point: “What does this have to do with Final Fantasy® VII?”.

From a logical standpoint, perhaps it will be more appropriate to make a new forum where this and other miscellaneous topics could be explored.

[vvalentine]

I read today, that a terrorist group al Qaeda was the one responsible for the attacks.  The FBI intercepted phone calls of them talking about the attack, they are one of the groups sponsored by Osama Bin Laden.  Also the officials of the Taliban are appealing to the U.S. to not attack afghanistan.  Supposedly Osama bin Laden is hiding there.  To be honest, I just wish the U.S. would bomb the shit out of that country so that they could stop all the stupid terrorism shit they do.

-vvalentine  

[ficedula]

SLG: This *is* the General forum; we've discussed plenty of real-world issues here before.

SaiNt: Very true. Recession was already a possibility for the US, but this has made it more likely.

Something that isn't quite so obvious it that it's going to hit Europe very hard economically. Firstly, the US is our major trade contact, so any recession in the US has a knockon effect here, too. Secondly, the cost of the disaster - all the US insurers are re-insured with the larger European banks and underwriters - Europe is basic the world centre for insurance underwriting and banking. The companies that will finally be paying out to rebuild and compensate for this are quite likely going to be European. Not to say that the US won't put in any money - of course, an enormous amount of the US emergency funds and so on will go into providing aid and so on - but this isn't a US only disaster.

Of course, nobody's denying that the US has suffered a terrible human cost that those of us not directly involved can fully understand, but we aren't isolated from the disaster over here.

vvalentine: Tempting to those people who want revenge, but in reality, all you'd accomplish would be to kill a lot of civilians. The real people who are guilty are almost certainly going to be the last people who'd be affected by any war against the country. Think of Iraq; in terms of punishing Saddam Hussain, the UN never really got anywhere. They kept him from launching attacks against other people - which was a very necessary thing - but sanctions, and even all-out attacks - never really affect the people in power until you've devastated the lives of the civilians first. It really should be a *very* last resort, to engage in a war.

[Srethron Askvelhtnod]

Qhimm:
 

Not that I wish to in any way downplay the events that occured, but using wild exaggurations won't help anyone. The death count is estimated to be in the range of a couple of thousands, but nobody knows. It's definitely not half a million, though.

I agree. However, there *could* still have been a lot of people who vaporized. As many as 10,000 different people in each of the Towers, plus people on the ground and in  adjacent buildings. I also remember hearing that two more NY buildings have since also fallen. Last night they said there were about 300 Fireman and Police who were on the scene when the first tower collapsed and are believed dead. There's something like 200+ confirmed dead at the Pentagon, and the total number for the dead passengers of the 4 hijacked planes seem to be hovering in the high 260s. Last I heard about New York, a top goverment official was quoted as "hoping" that an estimate of 800 dead from the Towers was unrealistically high.

 

What's more creepy though... have anyone noticed how shook-up president Bush looks? ...exactly.

I get the impression that he's angry, and, instead of exploding, he's putting his anger to constructive purposes.

 

how can anyone harbor so little respect for human life?

Check out the stuff their kids are learning in school sometime. All kinds of stuff that absolutely brainwashes their kids with Muslim extremism against Israel and the rest of the West. Frightfully violent anti-West and anti-Israel stuff. Even children's songs have been rewritten.

Jari Huttunen:
 

You are seeing the reason right now; massive publicity. Even bad publicity is publicity, after all. Although usually you are supposed to take the responsibility to get the PR, which hasn't happened, at least yet.

In addition, if the perpetrators *are*, in fact, extremist Muslim terrorists, than it's also a matter of their Jihad/"holy" war against us. We are merely "infidels", of whom it is an "honor" to kill.

 

Or it just might be that someone is really pissed at US, and 'cause you can't really threaten a superpower via conventional war you have to apply poor man's warfare: terrorism.

I think there's some truth to that. Why else hasn't whoever it is that did it claimed responsibility? The intent of terrorism is to sow terror, after all.

dagsverre:  

Oh, and this time it doesn't look like it's done for publicity, but rather for pissing off US...these people want to have the Islam world at war with the western one.

I agree. Really hard to negotiate with people who don't want to negotiate...

darkness:  

A terrorist group admitted to it. But then the leader said 'No we didn't. Thats terrible!' or something along those lines.

IIRC, that's the warning Jari was referring to. The reporter who got it didn't bother to report it until after what happened yesterday. Osama bin Laden and the Taliban leader (ruler of Afghanistan in everything but name) have both denied involvement. However, I guess there's several US intelligence reports (intercepted transmissions) that indicate otherwise.

StrayWings:
 

11 = 11TH September, Tuesday
9+3 = 12TH September, Wednesday
1+7+5 = 13TH September, Thrusday
7+7 = 14TH September, Friday

If you want my personal opinion, that's just superstition.   I think it was symbolism enough that the planes hijacked were from "American Airlines" and "U.S. Continental" or something like that.

 

This person predicted World War 1 as well as World War 2...and his predictions were correct on both events, and he has made quite some more predictions, but not all of them came true..let's just hope that this one is one of them..

I agree with Ficedula. I'd bet a lot that those "predictions" were just as intentionally vague as the one you just listed.   If a prophecy is not specific, or if the prophet is wrong even once, I find it very hard to respect or believe it/them.

eerrrr:  

The USA teamed up with UK, France...cant remember.

From what I hear it's every member of NATO. "...an attack on one member is an attack on all members..." etc. etc.

ficedula:  

Remember Vietnam? All the resources of the USA - and other countries - couldn't win there, because it wasn't a simple battle, army vs. army.

Actually, IIRC, it wasn't the whole US army. (I'm pretty sure at it wasn't ever much more than 700,000 marines.) The main reason we pulled out was because the majority of the American public (this was the 70s, after all  ) didn't even want to be involved in the war, and that naturally made our leaders rather unpopular. Eventually, to try to salvage things they pulled out. But I agree, it wasn't a normal war. It was all jungle, guerilla tactics, and so forth.

vvalentine:  

This is freaky.

Well, if you *really* want some very specific prophecies that came true centuries after they were made, check out the Bible sometime.

SLG:  

I am an emotionless being.

Unless you are not a human, I find that hard to believe. Humans are emotional beings. Therefore, everyone has emotions. For instance, your very handle is "Some-Loser-Girl". From that it is very easy to infer that you have a low opinion of yourself, and that is therefore why you chose your handle. That may not be the case, only you know the truth, but one's self esteem is rather directly linked with emotions. Perhaps your handle has some other meaning, such as a humourous intent, but that too is directly linked with emotion. Spock didn't go around calling himself "Some-Loser-Guy".
More examples from stuff you've posted (I hope I'm not compromising Remake security here   ):
 

One thing I feared

 

Bah. Now everything is not aligned.

 

My homosexual e-mail will not allow me to download the file.

Is this a personal attack? Of course not. If it hurts your feelings, I apologize. Of course, if you really don't have any feelings (feelings=emotions), then I guess I have nothing to worry about...
Why make a big deal out of this? Well, I guess it's because I have an uncomfortable time with anyone who tries to act as if they are impervious to and without emotions. Possibly because I used to try to do that myself, trying to suppress my emotions and act as though I had none, to the point of unmoveability. I eventually realized that it was mostly a defensive tactic that came out of my very low self-esteem. In fact, I think that it was almost a subconscious attempt on my part to make up for my shortcomings by viewing myself as better than others. After all, I was not burdened by emotions, which were obviously pure folly, and, therefore, I was better than those I despised.
I'm not accusing you of having an inferority complex like I have (again, only you know the truth). You're certainly entitled to your opinion (although opinions pretty much==emotions...), and this is just my own opinion; but I *seriously* doubt that anyone human is without emotions. It's just an essential part of how we are made up.
end RANT.

Anyway, the terrorism affected me as well. I don't exactly feel much sympathy for the victims, mostly because of 2 things:
1. I have not seen any of the news footage
and
2. It just all seems rather distant and unreal to me. Maybe if I actually knew some of the people who died or if I'd ever been to New York it would be different. That's what it was like for things like the Columbine Massacre. That just hit a lot closer to home for me. Of course, it should have. Heck, I was at the same concert as the 2 killers a night or so before they went on their rampage. But somehow this just doesn't seem the same.
Anyway, things are still in a tizzy here. My state has a number of potential terrorist targets (IIRC, we house the "secret" backup US military/government HQ in addition to a trade center), and the President briefly came out to an adjacent state because they learned that the White House and Air Force 1 were targets.
All mail is frozen. The only plane is a military plane that's carrying aid supplies/workers or mail or something back and forth between here and somewhere else at all hours of the day. I couldn't connect to the 'net for a whole day, and the only news anywhere and everywhere was terrorism, terrorism, terrorism. I think people are getting tired of it.
Sooner or later, people's thoughts will probably switch from grief and shock to violence and revenge. If the government doesn't do anything, the people will (mobs/riots/witchhunts). Unless whoever did this knows something we don't, mobilizing America against them was *not* a smart idea.

[Trilinear]

To whoever posted the "Nostradamus" quote:
 http://www.nostradamus-repository.org/cityofgod.html" TARGET=_blank>http://www.nostradamus-repository.org/cityofgod.html

Appearently that 'quote' is a hoax...

[Caddberry]

Thats some shit the us coming apart and the fucking board closing.. What a fucking couple of days.. Schools were dismissed early they sent workers home here and a whole bunch of shit... Fuck those palastinians (recent news in the US is that they have linked the attacks to Ben Ladin) <<<~~~~~ Fuck him!  if i could i would kill them all... Fuck the whole fucking middle east.. Kill them all then take over the oil supply.. Gas over here is about $2 a gallon. in Springfield(capital of illinois) its $3.00.. I hope Bush Nukes the assholes.. and i atleast think he will bomb the hell out of them.. I am still in shock.. i think that is because i havent physically seen it .. i have on tv but not in person.. If they fight i hope they give me a gun...

[Lyra]

quote:"...how the FUCK can they celebrate the deaths of thousands of innocents?! I don't care if they think the US equals Satan himself, how can anyone harbor so little respect for human life? "

Don't take this the wrong way, because I was appalled at these events as many of you were I'm sure, but really, don't condemn so quickly.  Remember when the US bombed Iraq (was it Iraq? I don't remember) and interfered in all those things?  Those people that celebrated probably see the US as the one that 'harbors so little respect for human life' because of all those actions.  I am not trying to justify the people, or even endear you to them, but really, it isn't entirely their fault.  Again, don't take this the wrong way, even though I know some of you will, I was very displeased with the whole bit as you all are, but don't condemn the people so quickly until you have walked in their shoes (I know that sounds cliched) and I mean really, are we all that different?  And this is just about the people that rejoiced and such, not the actual terrorists and such, nor in any way downplaying the deaths of all those people, this post of mine is just about the people rejoicing, nothing else.

[This message has been edited by Lyra (edited September 13, 2001).]

[Sephiroth 3D]

I want to share this before I go into a rant. My dad got this email today. I know this is a multi-nationality msgboard, so this might strike a chord with some of you. I apologize in advance.

TRIBUTE TO THE UNITED STATES

America: The Good Neighbor. Widespread but only partial news coverage was given to a remarkable editorial broadcast from Toronto by Gordon Sinclair, a Canadian television commentator. What follows is the full text of his trenchant remarks as printed in the Congressional Record:

"This Canadian thinks it is time to speak up for the Americans as the most generous and possibly the least appreciated people on all the earth.

Germany, Japan and, to a lesser extent, Britain and Italy were lifted out of the debris of war by the Americans who poured in billions of dollars and forgave other billions in debts. None of these countries is today paying even the interest on its remaining debts to the United States.

When France was in danger of collapsing in 1956, it was the Americans who propped it up, and their reward was to be insulted and swindled on the streets of Paris. I was there. I saw it.

When earthquakes hit distant cities, it is the United States that hurries in to help. This spring, 59 American communities were flattened by tornadoes. Nobody helped.

The Marshall Plan and the Truman Policy pumped billions of dollars into discouraged countries. Now newspapers in those countries are writing about the decadent, warmongering Americans.

I'd like to see just one of those countries that is gloating over the erosion of the United States dollar build its own airplane. Does any other country in the world have a plane to equal the Boeing Jumbo Jet, the Lockheed Tri-Star, or the Douglas DC10? If so, why don't they fly them? Why do all the International lines except Russia fly American Planes?

Why does no other land on earth even consider putting a man or woman on the moon?

You talk about Japanese technocracy, and you get radios. You talk about German technocracy, and you get automobiles. You talk about American technocracy, and you find men on the moon- not once, but several times-and safely home again. You talk about scandals, and the Americans put theirs right in the store window for everybody to look at.

Even their draft-dodgers are not pursued and hounded. They are here on our streets, and most of them, unless they are breaking Canadian laws, are getting American dollars from Ma and Pa at home to spend here.

When the railways of France, Germany and India were breaking down through age, it was the Americans who rebuilt them. When the Pennsylvania Railroad and the New York Central went broke, nobody loaned them an old caboose. Both are still broke.

I can name you 5,000 times when the Americans raced to the help of other people in trouble. Can you name me even one time when someone else raced to the Americans in trouble? I don't think there was outside help even during the San Francisco earthquake.

Our neighbors have faced it alone, and I'm one Canadian who is damned tired of hearing them get kicked around.

They will come out of this thing with their flag high. And when they do, they are entitled to thumb their nose at the lands that are gloating over their present troubles. I hope Canada is not one of those."

I think it's something you should all have read.

Being an West Coast American with no particular love of the military or fighting in general, I find it rather coarse of some of you who just want to fuck the people who did this. I agree, they should pay, and I agree that it would be difficult to impossible to do considering what kind of enemy we are facing.

"This is an act of War."
"We will make no distinction between these terrorists, and the ones who are harboring them."
- President G.W. Bush, September 11th, 2001

War has been declaired. Those who are activly and willingly helping the people responsible, be it 5 people out of their trailer in Africa, Saddam Hussien, or an entire counrty in the Middle East, will feel the full brute force of America's Justice come upon them. And not even the combined power of the entire Middle East can stop an enraged America.

This declarition of war from the people responible will not only effect the US, but the whole world. Those who are pledging their support in America's quest for Justice (Probably interchangeable with "Vengance") are getting ready to help the US strike at the very heart of terroism itself.

Israil (I think) make an unoffical declaration, saying that the line in the sand has been drawn. Now it is time to see where each country stands on the subject of terrorism. For or against.

World War 3 may not happen. However, it may also be much more likely than most people think.

The slowly sloping recession is going to make a nose dive when the US stock market opens tomorrow. What's worse is that because so many banks were detstroyed with the twin towers, there is a possibility of a depression not un-like the one that visited us in the 1930's.

Such a depression was not lifted until America joined the 2nd World War after the bombing of Pearl Harbor. By starting a major war, America may be able to stop this depression before it begins.

However, starting a war where so many lives would be lost, simply for the cause of stopping the economic colapse is not only unlikly, it's also unheard of, and won't be supported by the American people.

Once our Justice has be extracted and the world see's the truely unrivaled power of the US, Our lives may either return to "normal" or be shifted forever by events yet unknown to us.

Either way you look at it, more people will suffer an die before this is all over.

Sephiroth 3D

"One who seeks knowledge from another person, doesn't learn half as much as the one who seeks knowledge for himself." - Vincent Valentine, The Sephiroth Chronicals, Book 1: Resurrection

[email protected]  
Sephiroth 3D's Final Fantasy (Currently Offline)
 http://members.tripod.com/~Sephiroth3D/index.html" TARGET=_blank>Sephiroth 3D's Promised Land

PS: Damn! This is my longest message to date!

[chowderhead]

Sepiroth 3d:  Well said.  We're entering new territory here, and none of know where to go with it.  Again, the fact that we have yet to retaliate shows our collective restraint-and though we may clamor for justice (or vengence) out of frustration, I think our leaders are smart enough not just to lash out at the first thing that comes along.  The 'talking heads' on TV are saying we'll probobly go into a war-time economy, and that may bring us out of a recession-too bad it happens for all the wrong reasons.  War is not something we should want, or hope for, or ever have to experience.  But if necessary-if we wish to continue in our free and open society, we must rise to the occasion and defend it. (christ, I sound like a politician)

and finally, a qoute:

"It is well that war is so terrible, lest we grow too fond of it." - Robert E. Lee

[ficedula]

 

help the US strike at the very heart of terroism itself.

And where exactly is that?

If it DOES turn out to be Palestinian terrorists - well, I think their government has already condemned the attack and probably isn't going to refuse the US permission to send people into Palestine if they think someone involved in the attack is there. So what then? Where's your grand and noble war? You've got no target except a few dozen terrorists who are probably lying low at the moment - even if you track them down, that's still not going to need aerial bombardments from the US air force.

Everybody's assuming there's some big country that will stand up and say "Yes! I will help the terrorists escape justice! Please bomb us, USA!" In reality, it's perfectly possible that most countries are likely to offer cooperation to the US - on the surface at least. What then? Bomb Afghan because their police aren't putting in enough overtime to help you track down the culprits?

I agree that justice needs to be done - but far too many people (not everybody in this forum, it has to be said, but a large part of the US public) seem to think that automatically equates to a 'just war' against a whole country. That's isn't necessarily the case ... I can understand WHY they 'want' (support would be a better word) a war, after all, they want someone to pay for what's happened ... but you have to understand there may not be a guilty country behind this. It may just be a small group of terrorists. We simply don't know yet.

[This message has been edited by ficedula (edited September 13, 2001).]

[dagsverre]

Sephiroth: About "TRIBUTE TO THE UNITED STATES"...

Yes, US has done a lot of great things. However, it has also done a lot of bad things. These people had a reason for their terrorism. I'm not saying what they did was right, because it was very wrong, but still they had their sick reasons for it. It's not something that suddenly came into their head, they had *some* motivation for this. From that, you can conclude that for some people in the world US has done bad things. They have done a lot of great things but also a lot of bad things. Why is it that all americans take the honor for all the good things the country does but when it does something bad it's either the government's fault or they don't even know about it...

For instance, US is materially supporting some of the undemocratic/totalist regimes in the sector because it ensures a steady flow of cheap oil to US. Also the conflict between USA and USSR fucked up the region some years ago.

I'm not saying you are wrong. I'm saying that everything has more than one side. In this matter the whole western world has sympathy with US no matter what anyway. I just hope it won't escalate into a war as then we would either have to a) kill everyone in the middle-east and everyone who has ever sympatized with them, or b) watch the new WTC disaster in twenty years when the kids suffering from the war we are about to create now are old enough to think about terrorism. Taking out only the terrorists would be a good solution....if they can be found, which I doubt.

Oh, and true democracies in the region wouldn't be bad either and perhaps a war-like thing could do that...though I guess that wouldn't be good for the economy as the oil prices would probably rise from that.

Again, just trying to say that everything has more than one side. I could go on with 'nam and stuff but I guess I've made myself unpopular enough as it is.

(NB NB! I'm of course not supporting these actions in any way, I'm as shocked as the rest of you actually...it hasn't sunk quite in yet, the realization is coming slowly...it's like...unreal...)

BTW, the article you mention is discussed on slashdot:  http://slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=21572&cid=2286667" TARGET=_blank>http://slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=21572&cid=2286667

[This message has been edited by dagsverre (edited September 13, 2001).]

[eerrrr]

Man, I just spent over an hour reading through this. You guys have loads of really interesting points.
SaiNt: I think this thread should be archived...whatever that means.

[vvalentine]

Man, I could still remember a week last week on tuesday, I turned in my Mid-term essay.  My essay was about hunger in the U.S.  I made some commentaries about the U.S. government not giving enough money to programs that help families feed their children.  I was saying that the government spends more money on the military, trying to protect this country from some threat that I believed no longer existed.  On tuesday, September 11, at 7:30 am, I woke up to say happy  birthday to my father.  Ten minutes after hanging up the phone my mom calls me back telling me about what happened.  I quickly went to see the TV.  As I turned it on, I saw the City of New York covered in smoke.  I could not believe what had happened.  When I found out what was going on, I remembered the Mid-term essay that I had turned in.  I didn't feel so secure in this country as I did when I wroted that paper.  Having something like this happen definately opened my eyes and see that this country is not protected with an Iron Wall, and that this country is as vulnerable as the people who have died.

-vvalentine

[Joey]

This was expected. Remember how the US made economical blocks on those islam countries?

economical blocks = eternal porverty for children, grandchildren and the generation beyound.

which is why those brainless terrorist did this! Those guys are damm selfish not to think about those famililies of the innocent.

I mean, if the *empty* pentagon was destroyed, it would be sufficient for revenge but no, those fucks had to bomb em.

As for Afganistan, I would like to see the country crumble down like the buddha statue that they blasted.

This is the Islamic countries's situation: imagine that you are a puny guy whose everything is being taken away by a bully who is x3 your size. One day, you can't stand it anymore and instead of telling an adult, you decide to kill him by pushing him to the middle of the road with lots of moving cars. He gets killed, and everyone who was bullied(only a small number of people) cheers. Next, you are arrested and punished for killing someone.

America's situation: Plant troublemakers everywhere(Anwar, Suk yi, Falungong); bully weak countries; try to suppress or wipe out a weak country. This is their retrubition but those poor guys are innocent!

BTW, does anyone have the FFX demo? Can you give me?

[Sephiroth 3D]

Joey: That demo question is rather insensative in a thread like this.

I think what most of you are probably forgetting is that most Islamic countries see their own problems, sees America flourishing, and then decides that America is the cause of their problems.

I'm not saying that America is innocent. Yes, we've made economical blocks, and we've bartered with hostile countries for oil, but we have never taken any unprovoked actions against another country.

Long ago, those Islamic countries that are celebrating the attacks on the US, began brainwashing their chilren into beliving that the US is the evil head of the snake that is squeezing the life out of their country. We can't blame the children for thinking what they've been taught since they where in kindergarden.

But that does not excuse them from killing hundreds or thousands of people, military or civilian alike.

A single life, even one bent on self-sacrifice, is too high a price to pay for any cause. It's easy to hear that 800 people have been killed.

But if you think of your life, how much you've done... How much change you've made... What kind of amasing things you've done... What kinds of people you've met and helped...

Now take that wonderous life you're looking at, and multiply it by two. Then two again. Now try 200.

800 of those individual, amasimg, interconnected lives... gone. In the blink of an eye.

Never to see another sunrise. Never to hear the voices of the ones they loved. Never to talk, feel, or love ever again.

Just gone.

Can anyone who understands that really think about ending one of those marvelous lives?

I know I can't.

Sephiroth 3D

"One who seeks knowledge from another person, doesn't learn half as much as the one who seeks knowledge for himself." - Vincent Valentine, The Sephiroth Chronicals, Book 1: Resurrection

[email protected]  
Sephiroth 3D's Final Fantasy (Currently Offline)
 http://members.tripod.com/~Sephiroth3D/index.html" TARGET=_blank>Sephiroth 3D's Promised Land

[chowderhead]

Just to add on to what Seph said:  Yeah, America has screwed up in a lot of instances.  We followed the European model of colonialism and stuck our noses in a lot of people's business-Central America, Asia, the Phillipines, South America, Europe, Africa, and the Middle East-and in a lot of cases, we got burned.  This was coming, a long time coming, and we should have known our actions would bring this.  How does the saying go?  You've made your bed, now you have to lay in it.  But America *has* done a world of good as well, and at a time when no one over here feels very good about anything, that little circular that Seph posted helped to pick up the spirits a bit-It even made it to the national news last night.  We're all too aware of our shortcomings at this point in time.  

Fice:  It's going to be difficult.  More difficult than anything we've ever undertaken.  An invisible, un-named enemy, one that uses human shields and cryptic threats.  But think about this-was the task any more formidable in WW2?  America wasn't the "Superpower" that she is now-what did those people feel?  To fight an entrenched, veteran German and Japanese army with untested green troops-hell, it took years just to build up the materials necessary to fight.  I'm sure there were a lot of nay-sayers then as well.  It took the whole country to come together-food was rationed, as well as certain metals and rubber-all to help the war effort.  Everyone-little kids even-hunted for scrap to recycle.  I think (hope?)  we're all aware of what we are up against.  There's a lot of chest-thumping going on, bluster and bravado, and some of it's a natural reaction from people.  I don't know-I guess what I'm saying is just because it's hard-hell, almost impossible, that doesn't mean you shouldn't try.  And even if you fail, I think that there's something good and noble in that.

[Ant]

I just read an article in the Mail and it had this bloke from england who said he would do anything to become a suicide bomber, carazy, so its not just those kids in those crazy camps who are brainwashed but also people in England who are not under those influences.

[ficedula]

Every country has its share of fanatics ... some just have more than others.

[Joey]

 

The death of 84,000 lives has come......when the pillar of the world is destroyed

that quote if from my magic book. 84 means infinite. The pillar of the world? Religion? Peace? Understanding?

[Edea]

Hey guys. I know I haven't been here in a while and I'm a little late posting in this thread but I really like what Sephorith3D said back there. I agree...I couldn't imagine taking someone else's life. And also I can't imagine what the people of NY are going through right now.So my heart goes out to everyone involved and I pray for the families of victims that they can get through this.

[Ant]

I really wish people would not just remember the people in NY but also in Washington and Pittsburgh, sure more people were killed in new york but people should still remember the other places as well.