Cloud, Zack and Sephiroth (major spoilers)

[Threesixty]

I just like having fun taking both sides....

Starts 7th post down.....
http://boards.ign.com/Final_Fantasy/b5026/64821539/p8

My handle is Countrywide....there. My posts are kinda spread apart.... Anyway, I pretty much came up with Sukaeto's theory, too. When making Jenova a seperate living being...and not just a virus.

Jimconcrete is the other poster to pay attention to....the others you can pretty much ignore....they never got into it. How boring.


----------
I owe "Countrywide" Finance 50,000 dollars, so I figured I had the right to use it as my handle, besides...Threesixty was already taken by someone...although I have never seen a post there by a Threesixty.

[Sukaeto]

I'm with Aaron.  I don't think Cloud KNEW that it was Jenova.  I kind of think, but have no proof, that the dialog in the Northern Crator between Cloud and Tifa after defeating Jenova death was Cloud DISCOVERING that it WAS Jenova that they were chasing after all along.  

Cloud: Jenova's cells... ...hmm. So that's what this is all about. The Jenova
Reunion...

Tifa: Not Sephiroth!? You mean all this time it wasn't Sephiroth we've been
after?

Doesn't make too much sense, I think it's a translation error.


btw:  That's great, how you picked that handle (Countrywide), Threesixty.

---Edit---

Alright, I started reading the topic on the IGN board, but I quickly got sick of it.  Jimconcrete isn't proving anything, IMO half of the stuff he's saying doesn't make much sense.  It'd be different if he actually had some interesting ideas to bring to the board, but he seems more bent on being snide and attempting to belittle you than proving anything.

[Ged]

I also visited IGN boards...

What Jimconcrete is showing is pointless. He's keeping his side no matter what you say, and will turn down your arguments even if they are true. This was the part when I gave up even reading his posts

"
Quote: Keep that in mind when reading the script. Don't take the script as word per word....take into account the personality of each character and the emotional stress that each is under.

Jimconcrete : your not going to prove anything here
"

Allthough I liked another posters :

"
wonder if anyone connected to Squaresoft ever comes to places like this just to see what crackpot theorys are flying around, thinking "Man, if only they knew it was something completly different to that, and so so simple"....

I think some people read WAAAAAAAY too much into things...
"

And I can't understand why some people think that Sephiroth had control over Jenova. It's not possible. Jenova was and is a demi-god, Sephiroth is just a mere puppet for her, though very useful. How can a joining of Jenova Cells, Mako Energy, and human lifeform be more powerful then a being who killed almost all of the Cetra? It just doesn't make sense.

(Ed: I read on... and now I'm quite sure that ceasing this feasable discussion with Jim is the right thing to do. He's talking nonsense..)

[Contra]

I should put my two cents in. Foremostly, I will say that everything I say is my own interperetation after playing the hell out of this game for years straight. The Sephiroths we see throughout the game? I always thought of them as projections of Sephiroth's self. This explains the random flying, going through walls, etc. The way I see it, Sephiroth is trying to Reunite all the scattered cells of Jenova, once Cloud was on the move (He was the third largest concentration of Jenova Cells on the Planet, so it was imperative that he join the Reunion) Sephiroth set into motion, he sent out his projection, and absorbed the mass of his Mummy dearest, (Perhaps took control of the remains of her body, I had never thought of it that way but it makes an ammount of sense.) tore a swath of destruction through the shinra building (Sephiroth carrying/hosting Jenova's body) killed the prez, and left. Yes, he was using this as a chance to revive and his mother (Who I believe was the true orchestrator of it all, Sephiroth was Jenova's puppet, nothing more.), but he could do that at any time he pleased, the reason things happened like they did, was that Sephiroth and Jenova knew it would set the party, especially Cloud, on the path that they wanted them to take.

As it stands, this is how I see the "Chain of Manipulation" going.

Jenova - Sephiroth - Jenova's body - Everyone.

Basically, Jenova sits at the top, she's the Queen Bitch running the whole show, and loves it. I believe her conciousness resides within Sephiroth's body in the northern crater. From here she controls just about everything that Sephiroth does and thinks. And Sephiroth thinks he's doing everything he does of his own free will. So once things begin to move, he either projects himself outwords, or takes control of Jenova's body, (I am liking this idea more and more, so I think I will just tell my rationale from that perspective.) and breaks Jenova loose. Sephiroth's conciousness, Jenova's Will and Body, these are what you actually chase around the game. And united, this Unholy Dichotomy is the force that warps the minds of so many.

Wow, if you think about it, there is a disturbing parallel to Christianity here. The Mother, The Son, and the Jenova Cells. Jenova being a parallel to god, Sephiroth to Jesus, and the Jenova Cells representing the Holy Spirit, the part of this twisted version of God that is in the everyman - Cloud. Heh, perhaps Jenova's assult on the ancients is representive of Christianity's influence on Japan in the time of the Jesuits, but this is a topic for a different discussion entirely.

As for the clones, the reason Sephiroth, or projected sephiroth, was killing them off was to absorb the Jenova in them, and add it to the whole of his Mother that he carried. Reuniting Jenova to her whole self in the long run.

Anywho, that's my two cents, If I think of anything I missed, I'll keep you posted.

[Regan]

I wonder, why were Jenova ever placed in the reactor?
And what happened when she got away from there?
Did the reactor cease functioning?

The head, who cut it off?

If Jenova escaped by herself from the cell in the Shinra Tower, where did she get Sephiroth's sword from?
Can she prouduce weapons out of her body too?

[sfx1999]

OK first off, the head was on Jenova in the Nibleheim reactor. Sephiroth cut it off when he took it.

As for why she was in there in the first place, I am pretty sure it was there to provide energy for the monsters.

[Messiah99]

As for why she was in there in the first place, I am pretty sure it was there to provide energy for the monsters.

More like to provide cells for the monsters I'd think...

Just for the sake of adding another spin to this conversation, how about this?.....

Sephiroth, in and of himself, is only human. Before anyone attacks that statement, he was infused with Jenova cells in utero by "daddy dearest" Hojo. Jenova was responsible for his unbeatability in battle, his super-human ability to weild the Masamune.

Sephiroth was thrown into the Lifestream 5 years ago. We all know this is the last that's seen of him until the Northern Crater. Sephiroth takes the head of Jenova, and by the end of it all, is thrown into the Lifestream by Cloud, still in posestion of the head of Jenova.

Jenova can't be destroyed so easily, hence the Reunion, the cells will find their way back together.

Now, what if, because of the high concentration of Jenova, Sephiroth's body merged with Jenova's head, thus beginning the Reunion. At this point, Sephiroth is dead, mentally at least. His body becomes nothing more than a primary host for Jenova, a point to which all other's will be drawn for the Reunion.

Cloud: Jenova's cells... ...hmm. So that's what this is all about. The Jenova
Reunion...

Tifa: Not Sephiroth!? You mean all this time it wasn't Sephiroth we've been
after?

At this point Cloud realizes that it was the body of Jenova, not Sephiroth, that they'd been chasing around the world. This is what trigger's Cloud's breakdown, if it wasn't Sephiroth that they were chasing, then what happened to him after the Nibelheim incident 5 yrs ago, the last time he was seen?

Why does Jenova take Sephiroth's form and not another?

Cloud: He's here. The real Sephiroth is just beyond here. It's both incredibly wicked and cruel... But it's releasing a powerfully strong will from deep within this planet's wound.

Sephiroth, or at least his body, acting as the host of Jenova's central being (the head), told the body what form to take, and what to do along the way. There are 3 possible reasons why Sephiroth's form was used:

One is simply the intimidation factor, e.g. noone will try to obstruct a black-caped man with a very mean-looking sword while he's passing through town.

Two is that Sephiroth has been dead for 5 years, so the odds of him being recognized by the average person are slim, while others will know him right away and be afraid, i.e. Cloud, President Shinra, and anyone else involved in the grand scheme.

And three is that it will entice Cloud to follow, as Cloud would make a valuable asset to the Reunion. Remember, Cloud was the only "successful" subject as a Sephiroth "clone" which is shown by the fact that he pursued what he thought to be Sephiroth all the way to the Northern Crater.

In the end, Jenova was the grand manipulator of it all, Sephiroth the host of a grander being, and Cloud the sometimes-unknowing, sometimes-unwilling puppet, and Tifa the key to unlock Cloud's ability to overcome what would have otherwise overtaken him entirely.

[Sometimes]

Sephiroth, in and of himself, is only human. Before anyone attacks that statement, he was infused with Jenova cells in utero by "daddy dearest" Hojo. Jenova was responsible for his unbeatability in battle, his super-human ability to weild the Masamune.

just wanted to correct that... <atleast i think> but it wasnt hojo that infused sephiroth with jenova cells but professor gast if i'm not mistaken.. and i also would like to know... where did sephiroths memory problem come from? cause in the flashback seen as he was losing it he didnt remember being "created" by professor gast... is that just a part of the mako treatment? or as theorised before as to clouds memory being created from zacks war stories and imprints of tifa's memory by the jenova cells trying to reconstruct clouds mind after the first mako poisoning... well what happened to sephiroth for him to have false memories or no memories possibly... also i think also where were all the sephiroth clones throughout the beginning of the story? why did they just suddenly appear? and unless i'm mistaken <yea ok its my first time playing again in years> but zack was aeris' boyfriend she mentioned breifly right? well what role did that have anywhere? was there something i missed? and tifa... yea she knew a lot more than she let on throughout the story but i don't remember it being explained why she withheld everything from cloud... i'd give my own oppinions on these questions i have here but its 430 am and i think i'm gonna finish the game first before i go into that but just thought i'd see what everyone else had to say on this

[Messiah99]

where did sephiroths memory problem come from? cause in the flashback seen as he was losing it he didnt remember being "created" by professor gast... is that just a part of the mako treatment? or as theorised before as to clouds memory being created from zacks war stories and imprints of tifa's memory by the jenova cells trying to reconstruct clouds mind after the first mako poisoning... well what happened to sephiroth for him to have false memories or no memories possibly...

Sephiroth had no memory problems. He was told that his mother was a woman named Jenova and that she died after she gave birth to him.

Think of it this way, do you know who your mother is, the date of your birth, and where you were born? You weren't there though, how could you possibly know for sure? The answer is simple, you are told those things. Same with Sephiroth, the reason that he didn't know was because he was never told. Essentially the same as a child of an extra-marital affair who is told that his father is his mother's husband. How could the child know any different? Not much of a point for analysis really....

[Sometimes]

like i said i'm gonna play some more an get back to this... just to be sure on what i wanna say

[Threesixty]

...Cloud was not a succesful clone...he was a failer. In order for the story ever to take place, he would have to be a failer.

I have a theory about the creation of a clone of Jenova. To create a Clone the game said it needed Jenova's cells and Mako Energy. Ask yourself,  "What is Mako Energy?" It's lifestream, right? A place where memories of the dead go.  I havent' "made-up" a complete theory here...but just keep your mind open on this.

Maybe Cloud died that day. Maybe the Jenova's cells during this cloning process, gather memories from the Mako Energy. And for whatever reason....it couldn't find any for Cloud. And thus he was had no self-being....he was a retard. A body with no memories or being, but just full of Jenova. A newborn. And like newborns, need to learn stuff the hard way. He started with Zack's ambitions....then ended up with Tifa's memores of a little boy in her childhood.

As for Zack, he was already a soldier...he already went thru some type of process. Maybe that's why the Jenova cell part of the cloning process didn't work. And since there was no new Jenova cells in him...there was no Mako Energy influence, either. His immunity allowed him to stay himself.

[sfx1999]

I thought Hojo assumed Cloud was a failure, but was wrong.

[Messiah99]

I thought Hojo assumed Cloud was a failure, but was wrong.

To me, that seemed like an area of grey, as a clone he was a partial-success I would say. He was drawn by the Reunion, but only on a subconscious level. He was also subject to Jenova's control, just like the other clones were. But at the same time, he had a soul of his own, Jenova's power over him was not total, which is seen when his friends are able to stop him from killing Aeris. He was not a total success, but not a total failure either, and that, to me, has always seemed like a central point in things.

[Sukaeto]

Messiah:  Your theory on Jenova/Sephiroth is pretty much EXACTLY what I believe, except for the part about Sephiroth having died in the lifestream.  I had never thought of that before, but I think I like it.  It would make sense.

Threesixty:  I guess Cloud dying is a possiblility . . . though I wouldn't like to think of it that way.  Mako poisoning is a very traumatic experience . . . people are known to lose their memory when they experience something that catastrophic.  (I'd just hate to think that it wasn't really Cloud that you were playing as the whole way through the game.)


---edit---

In fact, I liked your theory on Sephiroth being dead by the time he reached the Northern Crater, I went and made a post on the IGN board and used that in my theory.

[NeoS]

Ok, i have a theory of my own.
Sephiroth died when he fell into the lifestream, but his strong will/consciousness somehow survived and merged with the "memories" in the lifestream itself. And as you know, Mako is refined from lifestream.

Hojo used Jenova cells to create clones of Sephiroth. Cloud however had suffered Mako poisoning due to the experiments Hojo performed on him and Zack, so he lost his own memories and was forced to the will of sephiroth (due to the mako) to follow him to the crater where Sephiroth most likely wanted his revenge on what Cloud did to him in the Nibelheim reactor. (whew)
Sephiroth just had to let him have some memories of Zack (which Sephiroth had access to, since Zack died and went to the planet) and mixed it with some of his own memories. So he let Cloud drag himself to the sector 7 slums. That's when Tifa found him at the station in sector 7, and Cloud regained his consciousness.

Hope you understand my bad English...
N.

[Threesixty]

^^^

Except the game said Cloud wasn't effected with Mako...just Jenova.

[NeoS]

He had mako poisoning when Tifa found him, didn't he?

[Threesixty]

...Hojo's report said that one was effect by neither, and one was effected by Jenova cells and no mention of Mako Energy.

"Escape report no.1
X month X day
The two escapee's located near Midgar"

"Escape report no. 2
Description at the time of capture.
A - Former member of SOLDIER/Number ( )
No effect could be detected from either Mako Radiation Therapy or Jenova on him
B - Regular/Number ( )
Reaction to Jenova detected."

"Escapee report no.3
Concerning their disposal.
A - Shot for resisting.
B - Escaped during A's resistance."

"Escapee report no.4
Other.
B's whereabouts is currently unknown.  But, we submit there is no need to
pursue him, due to his diminishing consciousness.  Awaiting further
instructions."

http://www.kuponut.com/index.html?ilogo.html&ilinks.html&http://www.kuponut.com/games/ff7/

under secret scenes

[NeoS]

First post.

Take notice - Mideel Cloud's Mako poisoning is not his first case. After the Nibelheim reactor scene when Cloud throws off Sephiroth, Shin-ra decides to mask everything up - Nibelheim lives again, and both Cloud and Zack are taken into experiment. Zack being exposed to Mako, and being an ex-SOLDIER withstands it, and becomes quite powerful.. Cloud however reacts with Jenova Cell's, and togheter with Mako poisoning and what happened at Nibelheim, he is completely devastated both physically and mentally.

Could be i'm wrong, but i really thought Cloud had mako poisoning, that's why he's so sick in the truck when they escape Shinra mansion.

[Ged]

Could be i'm wrong, but i really thought Cloud had mako poisoning, that's why he's so sick in the truck when they escape Shinra mansion.

Well yes, I didn't say otherwise..

[Threesixty]

Why don't you ask yourself this:
Why does a clone of Sephiroth need Mako Energy and Jenova cells?

Lets forget the idea of not having Sephiroth's DNA....which I find real hard do believe....but we might as well forget it.

Mako Energy is the Soul of everyone. Memories....life....all things dead and unborn are the lifestream. Jenova's cells are her own DNA. So it's kinda obvious why the cells would be used. It's her seed.... maybe even her.

So, why is Mako needed to make a clone?
Memories maybe?

Perhaps since Cloud had no reaction to the mako, he had no memories in his mind.....he was a brainwashed blank, slate. Made into a mindless lump of flesh with no memories to be taken from the Mako Energy......no soul....no being.

^^^
Only problem with that theory is that it doesn't explain the scratched messages on the test tubes. I really think that the writers of FF7 didn't think that deep into their own story, and ran into contridictions. The details of FF7 really don't make any sense. I could say that Jenova made the reply on the testube...but that is just stretching it. I'm making it up, with no support from the dialog of the story.

Maybe not having a reaction to Mako Energy means that....he's been poisoned by Mako Energy. You can pretty much twist things into any form you want with the dialog of FF7. But then that doesn't make any sense with Zack's report.... Unless you stretch that by saying that you must have a reaction with Jenova, before the Mako therapy part of the cloning process becomes a factor. And since Zack had no reaction to the first part "Jenova", he would have no effect of the second part, "Mako".

Either way, your just making stuff up....filling in the holes left by Squaresoft.

There is no right answer....I guess that is what I was getting at, with my first response, on this mako poisoning thing..

[NeoS]

Well, that's what this topic's all about...

[EmperorSteele]

Mako, i figgure, is to counterbalance the J-cells derogitory effects on the mind and body.  So someone can HAVE them, but they'd probably get very sick.

Zack wasn't affected by the J-cells and Mako, because, as a SOLDIER, he already HAD them.  Of course he wouldn't show any future reaction.  He was probably being used as a control to compare Cloud to *shrugs*

And Cloud OBVIOUSLY has mako: He's got the eyes.  Cloud and Aeris ahve a little conversation about it:

Aeris
"Hey.... Cloud. Were you ever in SOLDIER?"

Cloud
"..."
"...I used to be. How did you guess?"

Aeris
"...Your eyes. They have a strange glow..."

Cloud
"That's the sign of those who have been infused with Mako..."
"A mark of SOLDIER."
"But, how did you know about that?"

Aeris
"...Oh, nothing."

Now, we all KNOW that Cloud never MADE IT into SOLDIER, so he had to've gotten that glow from somewhere, ie, Hojos tinkering.

[Threesixty]

^^^^
or Jenova's cells.

[HBK187]

First off this post's info was put together by me an my bro (HBK188) whom i couldn't have done this without.
Sephiroth Zack and Cloud how things really are...
OK Lets start this off with professor Gast. Being the man who did the original research on the Jenova project... But research was all he really did. He got the information from Ilfana about Jenova. That Jenova exists and will not die and the planet is keeping a close eye on it. Hojo got wind of everything because Gast was reporting what he found out to shinra and Hojo kept some of those reports to himself. Now let's cut to Lucrecia and the birth of  Sephiroth. Sephiroth was the son of Lucrecia and Hojo. Hojo convinced her to give there unborn child to the Jenova project. Before Sephiroth was born he injected him with Jenova cells. And thats how sephiroth came about. Now cut to icicle inn. Hojo came to icicle inn and took Ilfana and Aeris and killed Gast and stole his research from there. Well as we all know Ilfana escaped with Aeris During or just slightly after the war in Wutai. Which happened atleast 17 years previous to the game. As yuffie wasn't born until after the war and she is 16. Well sephiroth became a great war hero during that time We don't know his exact age but i'm gonna guess he was around 14-16. And Aeris would have been about 5. Cloud woulda been 4 then. So Hojo had Ilfana and Aeris for between 4-5 years but they did escape and Ilfana was in bad shape from the escape she left Aeris with her new mom (the name escapes me at the moment) and passed away. Leaving Aeris the sole surviving ancient. Or does it? Sephiroth stated several times through out the game he was an ancient. And if you hunt around you'll find a document that states X day X month Jenova confirmed to be an ancient.... That part of the story get's kinda pushed aside by most people. But it's there. So Aeris and Sephiroth are the sole survivors of the Cetra race. Now before i get to Cloud let me make something clear. The ability to meld memories and create illusions is the power of Jenova ok now that thats said lets goet this going. Lets get to Cloud and some more important parts of the story. Cloud 7 years ago at the well with Tifa. Tifa wearing the green dress and the stars and the promise they made. Remember that? Those are really Cloud's memories. Theres a big mix of memories in clouds head. Between his and Zacks. I'll specify who's are who's throughout this. Cloud leaves then to join soldier at age 13 (7 years prior to the beginning of the game) 2 years pass and Cloud doesnt make it into soldier but he's still in shinra.  Although Cloud does not make it into soldier he is despatched to Nibelheim with Sephiroth and Zack. Now the flashback he has in Kalm shows Him as a member of soldier 1st class. We all know that was Zack not Cloud. The real Cloud was the shinra guard in the truck with mostion sickness. Also the one who was standing guard first we know it was Cloud on guard duty first because Zack offered to come keep him company. Remember "Cloud" said he would come back an talk to the guard? Yea that was Zacks memory Cloud displayed there. And the reason Zack said he would was because him and cloud were friends (the reason there were only 3 beds is because 1 person was gonna be on guard all night they didnt need more than 3 beds) Anyways what follows is really unimportant until we get to the reactor the second time after the fire. (which is real proven by zaghanan, tifas teacher, in the letter he wrote to her) Tifa is severely wounded by Sephiroth and Zack also. Cloud follows and is outraged takes Zacks sword and cuts Sephiroth but does not kill him.  Sephiroth limps inside the reactor a little more until he reaches Jenova and Cloud stops him. Sephiroth cuts him but cloud tosses him over the bridge with Sephiroths sword. The problem with the memory at Kalm is that Cloud could not have known what happened inside the reactor unless he'd taken Zack's place. So that too shows that Clouds flashback was of Zack's memory. Now the peice we saw at the # 5 reactor is true Tifa takes the sword and goes after Sephiroth this was how she was wounded at the reactor. This goes to prove Jenova's mind melding abilities because Cloud would not have Zacks memories of what happened before Cloud arrived and Zack would not have the concious memories of what happened after he was Cut. After everything here Hojo arrives with shinra and collects the bodies. (Tifa is not there Zanhagan saved her it said in her letter) It's at this point Hojo decides to test tube Cloud and Zack They didn't get # tattoos because they weren't full Sephiroth clones.but if they had they would have been 2 and 3 Sephiroth being 1... also Nanaki would have been 15 instead of 13 but anyways. Nanaki got a number but wasnt a full clone neither infact he hadn't had much done to him his main purpose was to extend the life span of the ancient which is why Hojo was gonna breed him and Aeris. But anyways Zack already has a tolerance for mako and the like so it doesnt affect him as much as it did Cloud (hence why he is still concious) But after all that and 5 years of it Cloud is pretty far gone. Zack breaks them out. Now the Jenova cells in cloud are very active due to the high concentration of mako and it's coming up here where Cloud absorbs Zacks memories. They take off twoards midgar and are being given a ride by a man in a truck where Zack decides he would become a mercenary an says Cloud can with him. He gives Cloud some clothes to wear. Well the driver drops them off on the cliffs outside midgar. It's here where the shinra guards catch them and kill Zack. Because Cloud was so messed up already they just left him for dead there. (Although in the report they made later they said he escaped...) But Cloud comes too and see's his friend lying there dead takes his sword and makes his way to midgar. He's sitting at the train station all dulled up on mako when he runs into Tifa. Now i beleive he absorbed some of Tifa's memories here but i really don't have much for proof to support this. But notice when Tifa starts talking to him she says his name and he questions it we get a flash (this is wear i think he absorbed some of her memories) and he knows whats going on and is semi back to normal for the most part. After this he relays "his" memories to Tifa and the game begins. Now Sephiroth is being chased around the entire game. I hate to disapoint ya all but that isn't the real Sephiroth. The real Sephiroth Throughout the game is in north crater. Thats where he came out of the lifestream. He is encased in materia as you here in the scene where you first see weapon an cloud gives the black materia to Sephiroth. Sephiroth has been here through out the entire game. The Sephiroth you chase around are Sephiroth clones. You remember the part on the way to the reunion where sephiroth says this is the end of this bodies usefulness? Yup just a clone. Sephiroth has the ability to manipulate his clones because of the Jenova cells. Since Cloud wasnt a true clone he couldnt completely control him but still had affect from time to time. You see his influance when Cloud gives the black materia to Sephiroth but you see he doesnt have total control when Clouds friends are able to stop him from killing Aeris. So yea that's the deal with Sephiroth Cloud and Zack. I think i covered just about everything here. Everything important anyways. But that's the whole deal i got the proof to back up most everything i've said an if ya all don't beleive something lemme know and i'll tell ya where to find the proof in the game.