What is friendship?

[spyrojyros_tail]

Heh, its kinda funny all my friends that i have now were bullies and abusers. I mean when I first met my two friends in primary school they lead me on for ages and were laughing behind my back, i thought i could really trust one of them but he was in cahoots with the other! Later on when that was over and we hit secondary school we bullied another one of my friends for ages. And until this day we still pick on one of our friends (although its all ment in good humor). I dunno what to say, but it seemed to work out in the end and we would all be very close now.

Although I can say for definite that chicks suck ass when it comes to friendship, they either screw you over totally or are your best friend.

She was playing me because she wanted my help for an exam she has this week, stupid cow.

Jari is right, its much easier to be the abuser than the loser.

Lol, that happened me too. But you learn from it and if your smart then it shouldnt happen again, when I look back at how one girl strung me along I was really really stupid and I should have seen the signs and put a stop to it myself. I think that fellas especially should not be too nice (around 30 - 40% asshole) try and find a happy medium between being a loser and abuser, take some abuse, but give some too.

I would agree that somer people use friendship as a way of getting what they want, but never confuse that with actual friendship, otherwise you will think everyone is like that. Man if i never did stuff cuz it hurt me the first time, i would never drink again im my life! 

[Sad Jari]

Your conscience has to kick in at a certain point, right?

I think that you answered your own question; many - if not all - abusers don't seem to have conscience. Either this notion of conscience kicking in is mistaken because of our point of view - we have never tried the other side, or there is more evolved group of people who have disposed of this thing called conscience. I believe that these people have name too... ...ok, no political joke this time.

Be that as it may, they win.

I would agree that somer people use friendship as a way of getting what they want, but never confuse that with actual friendship, otherwise you will think everyone is like that.

They are not?

[Relf]

Easier for me to be the loser. I actually loose sleep at night over things that I do, however, I don't loose sleep over people who are cruel to me.

[Covarr]

http://bitsandpieces1.blogspot.com/2006/05/true-friendship.html

[Sad Jari]

[M0T]

Another interesting question, can you be friends with someone you are attracted to or will sex always get in the way?

[Sad Jari]

If the other person is not attracted to you, sex shouldn't be a problem, right?

*gets serious*

I think that you can, attraction in itself shouldn't be a problem (unless you are like totally head over heels, or something), but with mutual attraction and sex there's potential for disaster. I would think twice, or three times, before having sex with a really good friend.

That being said, there are divorced couples who remain really close friends. So, there's nothing that will ruin a friendship with absolute certainty.

[M0T]

Well I am head over heels for the girl and she is attracted to me, but just wants to be friends. I don't really know what to do, everytime I feel fine about it all I see her and just go crazy again. The weird thing is I don't get whats stopping her, she has no boyfriend, she really likes me as a person and I know she is attracted to me. It's like all the ingredients are there, the recipe book is open but the chef is scared of making the dish.

Why couldn't it have been a simple situation? Why do girls seem to try and complicate everything, all my male gay friends I know will just go up to each other and say they like each other. All my female friends play games to achieve the same result, and what do they gain from that?

[zero88]

Women are complicated, life is complicated, everything's complicated. End of story [and life, pretty much].

 

[Sad Jari]

All my female friends play games to achieve the same result, and what do they gain from that?

Pleasure of manipulating males and displaying the power they hold over us?

There's no answer to your question, except that girls do what girls do. You'll just have a brain aneurysm from all the useless thinking if you try to figure out why.

She could have number of reasons; she might be afraid that she'll lose a friend if it goes wrong, she might be secretly lusting after some other dude, she could be just playing hard to get. Or - if you believe the ladder theory - you might be on the friend-ladder and in that case you have no chance in hell, sorry.

Just one advice; don't force the issue, or you might lose a friend.

Standard disclaimer; I am the last person who should answer questions like this, so it's probably best to do the exact opposite of what I said.

[Emerald Weapon]

Well I am head over heels for the girl and she is attracted to me, but just wants to be friends. I don't really know what to do, everytime I feel fine about it all I see her and just go crazy again. The weird thing is I don't get whats stopping her, she has no boyfriend, she really likes me as a person and I know she is attracted to me. It's like all the ingredients are there, the recipe book is open but the chef is scared of making the dish.

Why couldn't it have been a simple situation? Why do girls seem to try and complicate everything, all my male gay friends I know will just go up to each other and say they like each other. All my female friends play games to achieve the same result, and what do they gain from that?

I was in love with a good friend of mine 3 years ago or so, and then it turned out she was attracted to women...ever thought of that as a possibility? We are very good friends now, she one of my best female friends, maybe even because of that.
Reasons can be many. Many more than all members of this forum could possibly come up with. They might be major reasons like not wanting a relationship a this moment in time or not feeling up to it, or completely idiotic ones in your eyes, such as the way you eat your breakfast. Anyway, the point I'm trying to make is the same as everyone else. You probably will not know for sure unless you confront here directly. However, that may not be the wisest course of action.
I do not know if you know if she knows that you know that you are crazy about her and if she knows, that knowingly changes the situation. (Allright, I'll admit that last one was on purpose  )
Girls are most of the time dangerously good at detecting things like this, so let's assume she knows. That might then just be the reason she's acting "weird". She might not want to hurt your feelings and therefore keep her distance, or she might actually like you too and just not know how to act. But, here we go again, more speculation. If she does not know, and you have been good at conceiling it, then it's probably best to keep it that way.
You said you know she's at least attracted to you, that complicates the situation even more. She might be pondering day and night whether or not she'll give in to her feelings or not. And we could continue speculating untill the end of the universe.

The things that you have to consider are:

- How crazy in love am I?
- Am I willing to risk my friendship with her? (and perhaps her friends, which might be yours)
- If both are a wholeheartedly YES!, how am I going to tell her?

And Jari said the most important thing: [Dr.Philmode]DO NOT EVER FORCE SOMETHING LIKE THIS![/Dr.Philmode]

Do this and succes is guaranteed! That'll be 200 dollar then. I'll PM my bankaccountnumber.

To visualize the situation:





Good luck with it!

[M0T]

I was in love with a good friend of mine 3 years ago or so, and then it turned out she was attracted to women...ever thought of that as a possibility? We are very good friends now, she one of my best female friends, maybe even because of that.

When I first met her she catagorically denied she was a lesbian.

Reasons can be many. Many more than all members of this forum could possibly come up with. They might be major reasons like not wanting a relationship a this moment in time or not feeling up to it, or completely idiotic ones in your eyes, such as the way you eat your breakfast. Anyway, the point I'm trying to make is the same as everyone else. You probably will not know for sure unless you confront here directly. However, that may not be the wisest course of action.

She has told admitted to me that she does not want to be tied to anyone because she is fiercely independant, I don't know if its because I am not the right person to change that or if its something else.

I do not know if you know if she knows that you know that you are crazy about her and if she knows, that knowingly changes the situation. (Allright, I'll admit that last one was on purpose  )
Girls are most of the time dangerously good at detecting things like this, so let's assume she knows. That might then just be the reason she's acting "weird". She might not want to hurt your feelings and therefore keep her distance, or she might actually like you too and just not know how to act. But, here we go again, more speculation. If she does not know, and you have been good at conceiling it, then it's probably best to keep it that way.

She thought I didn't like her because apparently I was very distant with her. But about a month ago she accused me of wanting to sleep with her and told me she just wanted to be friends, but thats not the way she is acting any more. At the time it seemed a bit of a knee jerk reaction to try and push me away. If anything her saying that was completely out of character considering what she had been saying up to and past that point, e.g. she told me she would dress up in a playboy bunny suit for me, beggining of the week I made a joke about the milk tray man delivering chocolates and sex, she said that I was in fact the milk tray man and said she wanted a visit before she woke up for a non chocolate delivery. She will say a load of things like that, then suddenly go all cold.

You said you know she's at least attracted to you, that complicates the situation even more. She might be pondering day and night whether or not she'll give in to her feelings or not. And we could continue speculating untill the end of the universe.

Yeah when I met her she came up to me in a bar and started chatting me up. What then happened is we found out that we had a lot in common and it became a bit obvious that if anything were to happen it would be serious. Then she stopped talking to me. Thats when I apparently became distant. Personal opinion was that she liked me, got scared and decided to get over me by pushing me away, and is now falling for me again

The things that you have to consider are:

- How crazy in love am I?
- Am I willing to risk my friendship with her? (and perhaps her friends, which might be yours)
- If both are a wholeheartedly YES!, how am I going to tell her?

Very Crazy in love, when I don't talk to her I feel like ass.
I don't know if I can be friends with her whilst having feelings this strong for her.

And Jari said the most important thing: [Dr.Philmode]DO NOT EVER FORCE SOMETHING LIKE THIS![/Dr.Philmode]

Do this and succes is guaranteed! That'll be 200 dollar then. I'll PM my bankaccountnumber.

At the moment I am just sitting back and seeing what she does. I am hoping that it may be a fear of being in a relationship that is holding her back, which she has admitted to and since then she has been a bit different with me. If you had been in the position I have then you can see a huge mountain of evidence for her only wanting to be friends but also wanting more. But if she only wants to be friends then she is playing me like a guitar.

Edit: If I am honest with you I have to admit to this. After I first met her and we were getting closer I told her about an ex I had broken up with a few weeks before I met her because I wanted to explain why I was off the rails a bit when we first met. She understood and we were in contact every day. I said I'd put some music up on my website for her to download, and sent her the link. I didnt hear from her for a week and this was after 2 emails a day. I had a look at my website log to see if anyone had been on and she had, she had also looked through all of my photos from the summer. In all of the photos I was in was my ex who happens to look a lot like her, and at the time I kicked myself because it was obvious she had seen them and was probably the reason she stopped speaking to me. If we work on the ladder theory then I imagine I got booted to the bottom of her friends she likes ladder and have slowly been working my way back up again. Since I am fairly certain I have been on the attractive ladder I'm pretty sure I can go back there.

[Emerald Weapon]

When I first met her she catagorically denied she was a lesbian.

Well, that's one reason down. 225748239 more to go.

She has told admitted to me that she does not want to be tied to anyone because she is fiercely independant, I don't know if its because I am not the right person to change that or if its something else.

Sounds like a bit of a non-reason to me. Unless she's actually got a grounded fear to bond, it's probably a way of saying either one of two things: a) I do not want a relationship with you and am using this as a cover-up b) I do want a relationship, but am just really scared it will bind me and "cut my wings". In the case of the latter  it's up to you to make her feel at ease and assure her that's not going to happen. In the former, there's nothing you can do.

She thought I didn't like her because apparently I was very distant with her. But about a month ago she accused me of wanting to sleep with her and told me she just wanted to be friends, but thats not the way she is acting any more. At the time it seemed a bit of a knee jerk reaction to try and push me away. If anything her saying that was completely out of character considering what she had been saying up to and past that point, e.g. she told me she would dress up in a playboy bunny suit for me, beggining of the week I made a joke about the milk tray man delivering chocolates and sex, she said that I was in fact the milk tray man and said she wanted a visit before she woke up for a non chocolate delivery. She will say a load of things like that, then suddenly go all cold.

Flirting. Seems like ordinary flirting to me. Unless you make jokes like these with her all the time (I do with some of my female friends, they are just jokes, nothing more), she wants something allright. She's at least interested.

Yeah when I met her she came up to me in a bar and started chatting me up. What then happened is we found out that we had a lot in common and it became a bit obvious that if anything were to happen it would be serious. Then she stopped talking to me. Thats when I apparently became distant. Personal opinion was that she liked me, got scared and decided to get over me by pushing me away, and is now falling for me again

She obviously doesn't know what she wants. Again, the reasons for this can be anything. Well then, let me hand out some risky advice. Here's what I'd do:

Confront her. Perhaps tell her your feelings. "Demand" clarity. Tell her you're not happy with the situation as it is right now, and you want to know where you go from here. All of this in a relaxed and friendly way! (Again, this is risky.)

Very Crazy in love, when I don't talk to her I feel like ass.
I don't know if I can be friends with her whilst having feelings this strong for her.

Yes, you probably can. You'll get over it if it turns out it doesn't work the relationship-way. It will suck, and you'll feel down. But in the end you still have an important friendship. If you really cannot, then there's only thing you can do. End it. Before it's too late! (Now I'm overreacting )
You get my point.

At the moment I am just sitting back and seeing what she does. I am hoping that it may be a fear of being in a relationship that is holding her back, which she has admitted to and since then she has been a bit different with me. If you had been in the position I have then you can see a huge mountain of evidence for her only wanting to be friends but also wanting more. But if she only wants to be friends then she is playing me like a guitar.

That's why I gave the risky advice. This situation will probably lead to nothing but an endless impasse, within with both parties are not happy.

And if it all fails, there's always Empor.....I did NOT say that. 

[M0T]

Sounds like a bit of a non-reason to me. Unless she's actually got a grounded fear to bond, it's probably a way of saying either one of two things: a) I do not want a relationship with you and am using this as a cover-up b) I do want a relationship, but am just really scared it will bind me and "cut my wings". In the case of the latter  it's up to you to make her feel at ease and assure her that's not going to happen. In the former, there's nothing you can do.

I told her the sort of girl I was attracted to and she said 'that sounds exactly like me. hehe' and I replied 'I have always been attracted to independant women and I can't stand clingy girls' she responded 'cool'. More recently the conversation went like this:

Me - I think that you push guys away and keep them as friends because you are scared of becoming dependant on anyone and not being free any more
Her - Wow. woah. how can you know me that well? How did you know that?
Me - Because I feel the same way. I don't want to be with someone that won't let me be myself and constantly wants to know every detail of my life.
Her - He He
Her - Do you have a girlfriend right now?
Me - I often wonder how anyone can be attracted to someone so clingy.
Her - Are you seeing anyone? A girlfriend???
Me - Oh no, not at the moment
Her - Cool
Her - Do you want to come and see Brick with me next week once our exams are over?
Me - You got a boyfriend?
Her - No, hehe
Me - Yeah when do you want to go?

Now I might be wrong, but it seemed a bit like she was trying to get me to go out with her on a date. Initially I thought some of her friends might be going but earlier she asked me to find out if the film was on in our local cinema so we could go and see it tonight, and I know that would have been on her own.

She started being more friendly and eager to see me after that conversation as well.

Also its worth noting with regard to my edit on the last post she is absolutely fixated with my ex. She brings her up all the time and the other day demanded to know if I had slept with her, its a bit odd.

Flirting. Seems like ordinary flirting to me. Unless you make jokes like these with her all the time (I do with some of my female friends, they are just jokes, nothing more), she wants something allright. She's at least interested.

I never make these jokes with her, most of our conversations are about current affairs and comedy as well as our political views etc. Then every once in a while she'll throw stuff like that in and its odd having seen some of her friends crack jokes like that to her, she gets uncomfortable about it because shes a pretty heavy feminist and thinks it means men are treating her like an object.

She obviously doesn't know what she wants. Again, the reasons for this can be anything. Well then, let me hand out some risky advice. Here's what I'd do:

Confront her. Perhaps tell her your feelings. "Demand" clarity. Tell her you're not happy with the situation as it is right now, and you want to know where you go from here. All of this in a relaxed and friendly way! (Again, this is risky.)

Yes, you probably can. You'll get over it if it turns out it doesn't work the relationship-way. It will suck, and you'll feel down. But in the end you still have an important friendship. If you really cannot, then there's only thing you can do. End it. Before it's too late! (Now I'm overreacting )
You get my point.

I'll rephrase, I cannot be friends with her whilst she continues to act the way she does with me.

[Emerald Weapon]

I told her the sort of girl I was attracted to and she said 'that sounds exactly like me. hehe' and I replied 'I have always been attracted to independant women and I can't stand clingy girls' she responded 'cool'. More recently the conversation went like this:

[CONVERSATION]

Now I might be wrong, but it seemed a bit like she was trying to get me to go out with her on a date. Initially I thought some of her friends might be going but earlier she asked me to find out if the film was on in our local cinema so we could go and see it tonight, and I know that would have been on her own.

A Bit?? She's almost screaming it! You've got yourself a date. Don't be so insecure, just gor for it, go see a movie and see where the evening ends. She asked you to find out if it was in your local theatre, because she wants to go with you alone. Don't even bother thinking about her friends.

She started being more friendly and eager to see me after that conversation as well.

Did she know you weren't seeing anyone? If not, there's your reason.

Also its worth noting with regard to my edit on the last post she is absolutely fixated with my ex. She brings her up all the time and the other day demanded to know if I had slept with her, its a bit odd.

Typical behaviour for someone like her (as you described her). She wants to know for sure that your ex is your ex and no longer someone whom see might come to face as a rival someday.

I never make these jokes with her, most of our conversations are about current affairs and comedy as well as our political views etc. Then every once in a while she'll throw stuff like that in and its odd having seen some of her friends crack jokes like that to her, she gets uncomfortable about it because shes a pretty heavy feminist and thinks it means men are treating her like an object.

Hmm, she probably respects you. She doesn't like those kinds of jokes being made by friends, but will tolerate them when you make them or she makes them towards you. Be "careful" with the feminism though, you don't want to end up following her around like a dog. Be yourself. Be confident.

I'll rephrase, I cannot be friends with her whilst she continues to act the way she does with me.

You probably won't have to be "just friends" anymore, now that I've read all of this.

Go and go on a date. Have fun. Be you. See where it ends. It might be someplace nice, you won't know unless you do.

Good Luck!

EDIT: Just to be clear, no intention to mock you, anywhere.

[M0T]

I read no mocking, thanks for the advice.

I am just a bit wary of her, because the ex was similar:

She spent a lot of time telling me she loved me and fancied me, then going cold and telling me she we were just friends. In the end I didn't know what to think and the way she behaved ruined our relationship. I'm worried that a similar things might happen here.

[Emerald Weapon]

I am just a bit wary of her, because the ex was similar:

She spent a lot of time telling me she loved me and fancied me, then going cold and telling me she we were just friends. In the end I didn't know what to think and the way she behaved ruined our relationship.

Good thing to hold back a little in the beginning. Better to prevent getting hurt, then actually experiencing it. Don't let it constrain you too much though. If you do that, she might see it as you rejecting her by not responding to her. Just take it easy, get to know eachother better, before deciding to "make it official".

I'm worried that a similar things might happen here.

Thing is, stuff like that can happen anytime, and always. And it doesn't even have to be your fault. Don't worry too much, there's enough to worry about already. (Like, how's my hair? Do these clothes match? Do I smell good ) Fun thing for me te say, considering the way I usually dress.

[M0T]

A Bit?? She's almost screaming it! You've got yourself a date. Don't be so insecure, just gor for it, go see a movie and see where the evening ends. She asked you to find out if it was in your local theatre, because she wants to go with you alone. Don't even bother thinking about her friends.

It has now turned in to a how many people can she invite along thing. To say I am dissapointed is an understatement.

[Sad Jari]

It's beertime for you, again:

[M0T]

I am in fact drunk, so beertime has been arrived at.

I'm not going to go, I don't think it is particularly fair to do what she has done. Plus she now expects me to wait on msn all day tomorrow until she comes on to sort it out, I have better things to do.

[Emerald Weapon]

It has now turned in to a how many people can she invite along thing. To say I am dissapointed is an understatement.

WTF? Really?

Okay, I officially don't get this girl. All the signs point in one direction, and then she does something like this. It could just be insecurity and backing out at the very last moment, but I doubt it. 

I fear you might just be right, she may very well be playing with you. If you don't want to be "tormented" any longer, confront her. Otherwise it will continue.

If it turns out she was plating with you all along, dump her. Both a a friend and a lover. She's not worth it.

I wouldn't know what else to say. I'm quite through all the advice I've ever given. You've, or rather she's, got me puzzled.

EDIT:

I'm not going to go, I don't think it is particularly fair to do what she has done. Plus she now expects me to wait on msn all day tomorrow until she comes on to sort it out, I have better things to do.

Right you are. She can go and get lost in the woods of Eternal I-don't-give-a-crap.

[M0T]

Now it turns out it is just us again...

WTF??

[Emerald Weapon]

Now it turns out it is just us again...

WTF??

*Stares amazed at screen*

I really, really DO NOT get this anymore! Well, then have fun together, but be careful with whatever you do and say. No one can be sure what she wants now.

*Wonders who invented the female brain....*

[M0T]

 

I spoke to her again last night. We are going to a theatre in the city because she's working up there that day. I asked her what time we should meet and she says around 5:30, then she asks if I want to come up earlier so we can go to dinner as well. I say yes, obviously. Then I get this:

'Would you like to go to a pub after, we have a friend djing there so it will be cool'

Now I don't have a friend that djs in any pubs, so I wonder who she is referring to with the we bit. So I say:

'Have you asked someone else along too?'

She didn't reply and talked about something else. So slightly later on I then said:

'Who is coming with us to the cinema?'

Again she didn't reply and just started talking about something else. So I sent her a text messages asking her who else she had invited and she hasn't responded. I am not going now since it looks to me like she has invited someone along. Added to the fact that most of her friends do not like me and make it well known that they don't like me, even if she hadn't made it out to be some kind of date I wouldn't want to go out with any of them.

Anyway I am going to be out all day today, and she will be working most of tomorrow so I won't be able to talk to her to confirm anything anyway so I may be able to get out of this by just ignoring it.

[Sad Jari]

Well... could it be that she's actually bit scared and wants her friends there as chaperons, in case things don't go as she had hoped?