[FF7PC-98] Shalua Rui: A rebalance (0.3)

[titeguy3]

Yes, but he, through thinking he's Zack, essentially DID make solider 1st class. And even if he didn't, we was part of Shinra army, so he had to have SOME experience. Also, I DID finish both Crisis Core and FFVII.

What do you mean he essentially made 1st class soldier? He didn't even make 3rd class.
Actually it makes sense that he be weak.
He was a grunt whose minimal experience was limited to a gun. The reactor mission would be the first time he even uses the buster sword.
Not to mention the obvious mental and physical toll that the experiments had on him.

It's not actually Cloud in the flashback. It's really Zack, and Cloud's just telling the story as if it were him. Zack *is* a 1st class soldier.

[Immortal Damyn]

Well, he quite obviously takes on a lot of Zack's traits that he probably wouldn't have without the events that occurred. And his memories mix with clouds own, if not overpower. So as far as cloud is concerned he IS soldier 1st class, and has the knowledge to back it up because he takes on Zack's memories somehow. He knows the ways to use the sword through this, and he knows a lot of things he wouldn't for being a shinra grunt. Thus he is experienced in combat because he thinks he's Zack through most of the beginning of the game.

[Kudistos Megistos]

Well, he quite obviously takes on a lot of Zack's traits that he probably wouldn't have without the events that occurred. And his memories mix with clouds own, if not overpower. So as far as cloud is concerned he IS soldier 1st class, and has the knowledge to back it up because he takes on Zack's memories somehow. He knows the ways to use the sword through this, and he knows a lot of things he wouldn't for being a shinra grunt. Thus he is experienced in combat because he thinks he's Zack through most of the beginning of the game.

I think it might be fair to say that the knowledge he gained from mixing his memories with those of Zack and the strength he gained from the Jenova cells would have been cancelled out at the beginning of the game by the damage done to him from the Mako poisoning. As a result, he comes out with average strength overall.

It would make sense if his strength grew at a faster rate than that of anyone else in the party as he starts to heal and becomes able to realise his potential, but maybe the developers thought that having Cloud significantly stronger than everyone else would make the game unbalanced.

[titeguy3]

It would make sense if his strength grew at a faster rate than that of anyone else in the party as he starts to heal and becomes able to realise his potential, but maybe the developers thought that having Cloud significantly stronger than everyone else would make the game unbalanced.

I don't see why that would be the case...you can never take Cloud out of your party unless the story demands it. Speaking of which, I wonder if there's a way to undo the inability to swap Cloud out using [PHS]....

Moreover, I wonder what kinds of repercussions this would have on the gameplay...I can't think of any major problems except when Cloud has dialogue in the middle of a battle, which he doesn't except in the Guard Scorpion battle, at which point you don't even have the [PHS]...

[Immortal Damyn]

Well, he quite obviously takes on a lot of Zack's traits that he probably wouldn't have without the events that occurred. And his memories mix with clouds own, if not overpower. So as far as cloud is concerned he IS soldier 1st class, and has the knowledge to back it up because he takes on Zack's memories somehow. He knows the ways to use the sword through this, and he knows a lot of things he wouldn't for being a shinra grunt. Thus he is experienced in combat because he thinks he's Zack through most of the beginning of the game.

I think it might be fair to say that the knowledge he gained from mixing his memories with those of Zack and the strength he gained from the Jenova cells would have been cancelled out at the beginning of the game by the damage done to him from the Mako poisoning. As a result, he comes out with average strength overall.

It would make sense if his strength grew at a faster rate than that of anyone else in the party as he starts to heal and becomes able to realise his potential, but maybe the developers thought that having Cloud significantly stronger than everyone else would make the game unbalanced.

I was mainly more taking this anyway as a why would he be level 1 at the beginning of the game if he has had the combat experiences and what not (or at least thinks he has) not saying he has to be level 50 from the get go. However, were it not for the Mako poisoning and whatnot, I think he really should have been stronger than one "alive" on the planet.... besides maybe Vincent, you know, being that he carries Chaos and all.

[titeguy3]

Vincent could hold his own even before being injected with Chaos, he *was* a turk, after all...
But I digress...flashback cloud aka zack should at least be able to have a fair fight with sephy, rather than be a lv1, but really, it wouldn't make sense for cloud to be stronger in the past than he is in the present, and that'd probably give away more of the plot than the original developers intended at that point in the game...

BTW, with an unmodded kernel.bin, cloud is lv6 from the start of the game. (7 if you count the inevitable level up after the first battle)

[Kudistos Megistos]

It would make sense if his strength grew at a faster rate than that of anyone else in the party as he starts to heal and becomes able to realise his potential, but maybe the developers thought that having Cloud significantly stronger than everyone else would make the game unbalanced.

I don't see why that would be the case...you can never take Cloud out of your party unless the story demands it.

Perhaps I worded it badly. Having Cloud significantly stronger than everyone else would make the rest of the party seem useless by comparison; it would feel as if Cloud were "carrying" the party. Actually, it might have actual repercussions on gameplay, since having one party member stronger than the others would call for a different strategy, and enemy attacks would have to be almost lethal to other party members in order to bother Cloud or have to be so weak as to hardly bother Cloud if they are to do reasonable damage to everyone else. I suppose that this might not break the game, but it probably wouldn't be what the developers wanted.

Speaking of which, I wonder if there's a way to undo the inability to swap Cloud out using [PHS]....

Moreover, I wonder what kinds of repercussions this would have on the gameplay...I can't think of any major problems except when Cloud has dialogue in the middle of a battle, which he doesn't except in the Guard Scorpion battle, at which point you don't even have the [PHS]...

I can see it causing more problems on the field screen than in battle; a lot of events depend on having Cloud in the party.

I was mainly more taking this anyway as a why would he be level 1 at the beginning of the game if he has had the combat experiences and what not (or at least thinks he has) not saying he has to be level 50 from the get go. However, were it not for the Mako poisoning and whatnot, I think he really should have been stronger than one "alive" on the planet....

Yeah, but he does have Mako poisoning, so isn't stronger than anyone else

Also, my reasons as to why it would be bad for one party member to be stronger than everyone else apply even more for the start of the game. If Cloud were, say, five levels higher than Barret and Tifa, they'd feel really useless when they joined the party. One of the interesting things about the start of the game is that the way you fight your battles really changes depending on how many people are in your party. If Cloud were much stronger, adding Barret to the party wouldn't make much of a difference to how you fight. Furthermore, since the enemies would be targeting Barret, Tifa and Aeris as much as Cloud, then either they'd be dying all the time or Cloud would barely get touched because, as I said, enemy attacks would have a much bigger effect on the weaker party members than on Cloud.

[Immortal Damyn]

I'm actually kinda saying that everyone shouldn't start at level 1, and everyone should probably be more around 3~5 because they pretty much all have some fighting experience. Tifa's a martial artist, Berret leads AVALANCE.... Aerith is the only one i can really see as being level 1 because I've never really seen anything saying she's ever fought for any reason, except she lives in the slums... and there are monsters down there.

[Kudistos Megistos]

I'm actually kinda saying that everyone shouldn't start at level 1, and everyone should probably be more around 3~5 because they pretty much all have some fighting experience. Tifa's a martial artist, Berret leads AVALANCE.... Aerith is the only one i can really see as being level 1 because I've never really seen anything saying she's ever fought for any reason, except she lives in the slums... and there are monsters down there.

That's reasonable, and the game originally has them all starting at at least level five anyway. Aeris is probably a bit stronger because of the aforementioned gameplay problems that could come from having Cloud at level eight fighting alongside Aeris at level one. Gameplay always takes precedence over realism. And Aeris might get a bit of a boost from being an Ancient.

I suppose everyone in FF7 has a reason for starting at the level they start at; Red XIII is some kind of wolf/lion thing, so it would make sense if he were strong; Yuffie is a ninja; Cait Sith is a robot (and we can assume that robots are strong) and Vincent is a former Turk. The only exception is Cid; I can't recall there being any reason why he would be good at fighting or have experience. Meh, maybe we can assume he started off as a military pilot and used to be in the armed forces.

[Senti]

Points about Cloud's history:
Cloud was level 1 in the flashback because cloud himself was weak, however Zack wasn't weak at all during the trip. Zack and Cloud's memories never did merge together, only those that Cloud was with Zack did (otherwise he would have recognized Aeris).

Cloud is weakened by Mako poisoning after waking up in Midgar, why do you think he starts at level 7 instead of level 15 or so to represent the strength he did have as a grunt? The reason for him subsuming Zack's identity is because of his subconscious desire to make Tifa notice him coupled with the Mako poisoning to begin with and his adventures with Zack while he was in the Shinra Army (see CC: FFVII for more details).

The representation between Sepheroth at level 50 in his flashback and him being level 1 was very close in proximity to how strong Sepheroth was compared to him during that trip. And everyone knows how to use a sword, you swing it with the sharp edge toward your enemy, not much to it if your enemy has never fought with/against a blade before.

As for the rest of the menagerie of characters:
Vincent is a former Turk who has been infused with Chaos.
Yuffie is a Ninja trained in Wutai.
Cait Sith is a robot controlled by the head of Shinra's Urban Development.
Barret and Tifa are rebel fighters against Shinra.
Aeris is the last of the ancients born with the powers of the planet.
Cid is a former pilot for Shinra (most likely the military).
Red XIII is the descendant of a race of intelligent big cats that have obvious physical prowess.

Of those, Vincent, Cait Sith, Red XIII and Cid, in addition to Cloud, have been trained and/or experimented on by Shinra to make them stronger.

[Timber]

Well, he quite obviously takes on a lot of Zack's traits that he probably wouldn't have without the events that occurred. And his memories mix with clouds own, if not overpower. So as far as cloud is concerned he IS soldier 1st class, and has the knowledge to back it up because he takes on Zack's memories somehow. He knows the ways to use the sword through this, and he knows a lot of things he wouldn't for being a shinra grunt. Thus he is experienced in combat because he thinks he's Zack through most of the beginning of the game.

Where did this Zack and Clouds memory mixing come from?
Cloud is just messed up in the head from traumatic experience, jenova/mako experiments, and his own self esteem issues.
No 'magical memory transference' took place...

Damyn, Cloud being weak at the start of the game makes sense from both a story and gameplay persepctive.
Deal with it.

[obesebear]

Jenova has the power to change one's looks, thoughts, and personality.  The jenova cells cloud had took his memories of zack and incorporated them to cloud.
Also, SOLDIERs are infused with mako to make them stronger.  Cloud was infused with Mako. Cloud is stronger. 

Cloud has a bit of Jenova in him.  Cloud can now reach a potential much higher than regular SOLDIERs.

Cloud never received proper SOLDIER training, so in the beginning of the game he is quite strong, but not as strong as someone like Zack or any of the other "official" first class SOLDIERs

[Soul]

Because Cloud is Zack's living legacy. So.. Cloud must live the way Zack lives. Cloud wants to show everyone that is also as strong as Zack. In short,
Cloud wants to be Zack because its Zack's dying wish to Cloud, to continue what Zack started.. 

[Auraplatonic]

Also, my reasons as to why it would be bad for one party member to be stronger than everyone else apply even more for the start of the game. If Cloud were, say, five levels higher than Barret and Tifa, they'd feel really useless when they joined the party. One of the interesting things about the start of the game is that the way you fight your battles really changes depending on how many people are in your party. If Cloud were much stronger, adding Barret to the party wouldn't make much of a difference to how you fight. Furthermore, since the enemies would be targeting Barret, Tifa and Aeris as much as Cloud, then either they'd be dying all the time or Cloud would barely get touched because, as I said, enemy attacks would have a much bigger effect on the weaker party members than on Cloud.

My main goal is make it difficult and interesting.  I don't want there to be any extremes as far too easy or too hard.  In my experience so far it hasn't been too bad with having them start at 1.  I am not really focused on the "realism" of Clouds level based on his experience because in my opinion he should start at level 1 from an rpg perspective.  You are starting the game, you haven't fought with him yet.  He should be at the lowest level with no experience, imo.

I do understand that it may seem daunting that Cid for example would start at level 1.  I guess my thinking there was that it was just an interesting twist to explore.  I have balanced out that aspect with Red by making him really important to the first battle you fight with him, even at a low level.  As the mod develops this may change but its just something that in everyone's testing we will have to see.


Another part of the game I did not like was the imbalance of stats.  Cloud is overpowered throughout the game especially in the beginning(Yea i know the Jevova and all that) and I never liked how the other characters could not compare damage wise.  To combat this I basically evened out everyone's stats on 6 distinct curves but they differ based on what the characters strong stats would be.  The thing with the original game is that there is a sort of distinction in stats but noone really stands out except for Cloud because he is better than everyone else.  I know his situation but that isn't much balance imo.

[Auraplatonic]

So anyone have anymore opinions yet?  Im working on getting to the end of the first disk because I am personally pretty happy with the progress thus far. 

[Bosola]

I was thinking of a name for a while, and I found one!  Shalua Rui is mostly me trying out to see if I can make a balanced, yet difficult modification that will be well accepted.  Its not going to be hardcore but there will be a good amount of difficulty in parts.  Anyway I am working on this day by day and I will have a soft test release soon.  What I will soon release will be the game up until you leave Midgar.  I want to work on it in parts to see what the community reaction is instead of making a whole game patch that could potentially suck, leaving me a lot more to edit.  Anyone who tries it will be greatly appreciated and their input will drive where the mod will go.


Alright!  I have up to Midgar completed.  The only thing I am missing is the shop part of the patch, which I should be adding soon.



http://www.mediafire.com/?hkmy2z4levz



Its listed in the installer, but changes include:


EVERYONE except for Yuffie starts at level one.(Unless you are insane enough to level Cloud past 65 before you get them lol)

Stats are overhauled; basically it works on 6 set curves for every character that are ranked differently to provide variety and balance.  HP and MP curves are lower as well, something more similar to FF6

To improve the effectiveness of physical attacks especially early in the game some enemies are weak to the physical "elements"(punch, shoot, hit, cut).  This helps the characters with low magic have a strength at their disposal, something that FF7 lacked.

EXP and gold gained are decreased, but not crazy low.  

AP is increased, and AP needed for materia is increased, but at a lower curve.

Minor Equipment  changes

Enemy drop/steal values and items are changed.  Any interesting drops you get could be very useful especially on bosses.   Also, bosses rarely drop sources, and you can steal from them!  Its a rare steal but worth it if you can score the item.


Enemies deal more damage and have more HP.  Enemies use status ailments to put a twist on battle.  Look out for alot of attacks to target the whole party.

Videos!
-------

Guard Scorpion: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HlqiDxJivx0

Airbuster: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TdzkYTgEsY8

I am already producing a Rebalance that does this, and more - adding new spells, instituting an elemental and status class system, changing mechanics and limit breaks - which I started in Q3 last year. React as you will.

[Auraplatonic]

Sounds interesting.  My main goal is not to add alot of new spells to the game, its mostly to take the original game and balance its difficulty.  I think it would be cool to see new spells but I don't think its a rebalance to add a lot of new stuff, that would be more along the lines of a remake. I would also say that what you are doing won't necessarily do what mine does because it seems we have different goals as far as what we consider to be rebalanced. Im interested to see the results though and would definitely play it.  This project is mostly for my enjoyment but I figure I would share it with the community and hope someone else could enjoy it too.  I'm not a really good programmer or anything so I am thankful for all of the great work others have done to help me with what I am doing.

[Bosola]

Likewise, I'd be interested to play your mod too. Will it be PSX compatible?

[Auraplatonic]

I haven't really thought about that aspect yet.  I want to get a finished one first   Work is slow as life is busy.

[Cloud1000]

I think this mod looks very very promising. You and bosola should form an alliance and work together merge ya mods and make the best HARDCORE MOD EVAH!     

 

[titeguy3]

I think this mod looks very very promising. You and bosola should form an alliance and work together merge ya mods and make the best HARDCORE MOD EVAH!     

 

See: Gjoerulv

I don't think anybody will ever make a harder mod (that's still fun).

[Cloud1000]

I think this mod looks very very promising. You and bosola should form an alliance and work together merge ya mods and make the best HARDCORE MOD EVAH!     

 

See: Gjoerulv

I don't think anybody will ever make a harder mod (that's still fun).

Gjoerulv's mod is great I love it too especially the new monsters. however its a bit to much health on monsters. Makes gameplay alot "longer" Otherwise its a really awesome hardcore mod

[pyrozen]

all of these rebalance mods sound interesting, but my i suggest a bit of unification? everyone seems to be doing some things the same and other different, but working against each other. Not to sound condescending, but a bit of Team Avalanche spirit could help all of you. I can think of 3 or 4 mods like this around here now, but not a single one gets it "right", or packages multiple levels in a single installer.

I LOVE these mods, but there are too many that are too similar.
Join forces, together you are more powerful than alone.

ps... i will play this mod no matter what action you take

lee

[titeguy3]

all of these rebalance mods sound interesting, but my i suggest a bit of unification? everyone seems to be doing some things the same and other different, but working against each other. Not to sound condescending, but a bit of Team Avalanche spirit could help all of you. I can think of 3 or 4 mods like this around here now, but not a single one gets it "right", or packages multiple levels in a single installer.

I LOVE these mods, but there are too many that are too similar.
Join forces, together you are more powerful than alone.

ps... i will play this mod no matter what action you take

lee

This is true, but it takes a *lot* of organization to make an AI overhaul like this into a joint project. Not to mention, I speak for myself at the very least when I say that AI editing is fun and satisfying. I can see why people would be reluctant to split up the workload because, to me at least, I don't view it as work. I enjoyed making my mod a lot, and I actually kind of wish I had more to change.

[Cloud1000]

pyrozen I'm glad I am not alone with the "Join forces" Part Its great idea!! And also if they do join forces it will be done way faster and it will be even BETTER!