Qhimm.com Forums
Off-topic forums => Completely Unrelated => Topic started by: BlitzNCS on 2010-03-27 12:59:51
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Is it just me, or is seifer showing off the team avalanche patch more than he is his stupid translation thing?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3JNQb4blGOI
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I think he should have just left the original translation as it was.....
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I think he should have just left the original translation as it was.....
I don't think there's a single person on this forum who doesn't think that. :P
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Most of the re-translation is fine, but some bits just didn't need it or don't sound right.
Mog > Moguri, doesn't sound right, more so considering they've been called Moogles/Mogs in many other english language FF games.
Remove > Degeon, keeping Remove or using Banish or Dismiss would have been better, Degeon isn't a "real" word, it doesn't sound like a word used for taking someone out of a fight.
Mega All > Omni All, Omni pretty much means all anyway, so he's basically made it All All.
Slash all > Cut all, Barrett and Vincent use guns that neither slash nor cut, Attack All would have been a better choice there.
He's used a lot of literal translation, in many ways it's just returned results that mean the exact same thing as it already did.
Literal Translations from Japanese are not always a good thing, liberties were taken in the original translation for a reason, it actually made more sense.
All power to him for doing the project, I just disagree on a few of his choices, plenty of it makes sense, just not all of it.
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although im not a fan of most of the changes he's made, i wont knock that the game could be "cleaned" up. However, a very direct/literal translation isnt really the answer. more along the lines of just clearing up things that could use change, as they dont make much sense. eg. typos, attuning things to canon, but by all means, leaving "this guy are sick" :P
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I think he should have just left the original translation as it was.....
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Please tell me what you didn't actually understand by the words "Retranslation Project" or "Faithful to Japanese Game" or "More accurate" ?
The new FMV are better quality, I think they should have kept authentic 320*224
The new fonts look too good, I think we should go back to the old as they were.
The new models are too good, I think we should keep to how Barrett actually looks
I don't think there should be a PC version, the PSX version is the only proper way of playing the game
If I applied this logic elsewhere we wouldn't have qhimm's.
Moving on to constructive criticism
a. Best off signing up to my forum and bringing issues there if you have them since, I will shortly be dissppearing from here
b.
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Mog > Moguri, doesn't sound right, more so considering they've been called Moogles/Mogs in many other english language FF games.
>>>Canon has been thrown out. If you nread the link you will see why it is called Moguri. Moogle and Mog are mistakes. The japanese chose the name from their own words and no one has the right to go against that. It is their name. When you create a work of fiction what you choose is yours. No one has the right to butcher it.
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Remove > Degeon, keeping Remove or using Banish or Dismiss would have been better, Degeon isn't a "real" word, it doesn't sound like a word used for taking someone out of a fight.
>>>Degeon is De dungeon. It has been a staple of the series before and it is consistent in Japanese version too.
http://finalfantasy.wikia.com/wiki/List_of_Final_Fantasy_V_Enemy_Abilities
Although this is definately one I will be bringing up again with the team and others, make sure it is accurate. It certainly isn't Exit or banish or X zone.
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Mega All > Omni All, Omni pretty much means all anyway, so he's basically made it All All.
>>>I didn't make it all all. The Japanese is literally "All all" or "Whole All" Omni All is an excellent name for it and is completely accurate to the Japanese.
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Slash all > Cut all, Barrett and Vincent use guns that neither slash nor cut, Attack All would have been a better choice there.
>>>If the Japanese had meant that they would have used it. The Japanese are not stupid, they know what cut is and what attack is and they know the difference. The names are all designed for cloud. There is no mistake here.
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If you have any other queries, you know where I am. And believe me when I say, I have had 3 japanese people working with me on every single change with others looking through the document and raising issues. Nothing has been gone into half assed and some things went to a vote.
To author of this thread:
If you like canon however flawed, or you don't like accuracy, or you don't like this mod, do not install it. No one is forcing you. Some people appreciate the work that is going into this and the dedication I am giving the project and respect for the original vision. Pathetic threads like this reflect on you badly.
The bottom line is this: This is a Japanese game and was written by people who did not intend what has now become canon in English. I am restoring it to how it should be. Please keep your insane fanboyism to yourself and remember that this is a game, not the Bible.
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Please tell me what you didn't actually understand by the words "Retranslation Project" or "Faithful to Japanese Game" or "More accurate" ?
I think no one is questioning any of these things, except perhaps that "more literal translation" would be equal to "more accurate" or "more faithful". Furthermore, as stated many times elsewhere, no one is questioning that the existing PC translation could stand to be improved. In fact, plenty of people are saying that many of your changes are improvements.
I don't think there should be a PC version, the PSX version is the only proper way of playing the game
If I applied this logic elsewhere we wouldn't have qhimm's.
Actually, that last one is pretty much your logic when it comes to the translation. You don't agree with some of the choices of the PC translation, and your conclusion is that any liberties taken during translation can only serve to lessen its quality compared to the original. It is at this point that you will find people disagreeing with you.
Personally, I would argue that if you want the exact original intended Japanese experience, you are pretty much resigned to playing the game in Japanese, and first becoming well versed in Japanese language and culture as necessary. For your translation to be experienced they way you intend it, this requirement unfortunately doesn't go away, as literal translations sometimes won't make sense unless you know Japanese. I will get back to this.
"Mog > Moguri, doesn't sound right, more so considering they've been called Moogles/Mogs in many other english language FF games."
Canon has been thrown out. If you read the link you will see why it is called Moguri. Moogle and Mog are mistakes. The japanese chose the name from their own words and no one has the right to go against that. It is their name. When you create a work of fiction what you choose is yours. No one has the right to butcher it.
Whoa there, steady boy. First of all I believe translation enjoys special status under copyright law, under which Square were the ones to commission an official translation and you are the one illegally butchering the original work. Second, Moogle and Mog are also their choices for their English version of the story, which is certainly of no lesser value than your elevated opinion. Moguri is a clever Japanese word play combined from their words for "mole" and "bat" (whose traits the Moguri share), with the added bonus of sounding like "Mowgli", strengthening existing connotations for child-like things and animals. How much of this comes through when you as an English speaker see the word "Moguri"?
Translation usually entails conveying the original meaning as much as possible, not the original spelling or whatever (that might more closely be called a transcription). I personally consider both Mog and Moogle to be quite good translations, seeing as how you will quickly give up conveying all of "mole-like, bat-like, small child-like thing" with a single word in English -- both Mog and Moogle borrow from the original Moguri, but turn it into a more natural-sounding word for English-speakers with a "quirky" feel to it. And apparently Square-Enix agrees, considering they're sticking with the translation despite ample opportunities to change it for something better (c.f. Aeris / Aerith).
"Remove > Degeon, keeping Remove or using Banish or Dismiss would have been better, Degeon isn't a "real" word, it doesn't sound like a word used for taking someone out of a fight."
Degeon is De dungeon. It has been a staple of the series before and it is consistent in Japanese version too.
http://finalfantasy.wikia.com/wiki/List_of_Final_Fantasy_V_Enemy_Abilities
Although this is definately one I will be bringing up again with the team and others, make sure it is accurate. It certainly isn't Exit or banish or X zone.
And yet time after time professional translators opt for exactly "Banish" or similar. Your opinion on this matter comes through as highly arrogant, arguing that you alone are fit to decide what an "accurate" translation is, even in the face of heavy disagreements from most people you mention it to.
The critical point in this kind of translation (which you seem to be missing) is "will people understand this word when they see it?". "Degeon" in particular apparently requires you look it up in a specialized encyclopedia before you understand its meaning, which I must admit sounds like a textbook example of a failed translation, especially when its intended use case is to be easily understandable in a small game action menu.
"Slash all > Cut all, Barrett and Vincent use guns that neither slash nor cut, Attack All would have been a better choice there."
If the Japanese had meant that they would have used it. The Japanese are not stupid, they know what cut is and what attack is and they know the difference. The names are all designed for cloud. There is no mistake here.
Unfortunately, the Japanese word for "cut" has the extended general meaning of "cut down" as in attack, damage or kill, something its English counterpart doesn't share to the same extent. It also has the benefit of being instantly understandable to any Japanese (including kids) and is shorter than the more generic words for "attack", and thus will more easily fit into the menu. So "cut" in Japanese is indeed a generic term and is not designed specifically for Cloud -- you wouldn't use it specifically for guns, but it is definitely appropriate to describe a generic attack in a world where a majority of weapons are blades. Of course, the original translation makes the same "mistake" of going for the more literal term even though the generic one matches the use case better.
If you have any other queries, you know where I am. And believe me when I say, I have had 3 japanese people working with me on every single change with others looking through the document and raising issues. Nothing has been gone into half assed and some things went to a vote.
I have no doubt you've had access to good Japanese resources, but your suggested translations makes me wonder if you had access to any good Japanese-English translation resources, as opposed to people who know how to use dictionaries. People who know Japanese don't necessarily know how to translate well into English -- my mother tongue is Swedish and I know a fair amount of English, that doesn't mean I can translate either of those well into Japanese. I can certainly respect your willingness to preserve any names as much and as precisely as possible, but it's way too easy to go too far with this reasoning, and you end up with something that is really only meaningful to you yourselves (since you translated it, you already have all the necessary background information).
My heartfelt recommendation if you really want to improve the translation is to utilize test subjects; people with no Japanese skill that have as little background information as possible (at best, barely having played the game), and running proposed translations past them. The more of the intended meaning they figure out without you telling them, the better the translation is.
To author of this thread:
If you like canon however flawed, or you don't like accuracy, or you don't like this mod, do not install it. No one is forcing you. Some people appreciate the work that is going into this and the dedication I am giving the project and respect for the original vision. Pathetic threads like this reflect on you badly.
Let me clarify that I am in no way saying your work is bad. On the contrary, I would love to play through the game with your patch in effect, because it would let me see various Japanese details more easily than playing through the Japanese version. However, the reason it would work is because in my head I'm translating the various oddities back into Japanese, where it suddenly makes sense. To an English-speaker that didn't take part in your background research, this can't happen, and so I fear your translations will look considerably stranger than any "butchering" in the existing version.
The bottom line is this: This is a Japanese game and was written by people who did not intend what has now become canon in English. I am restoring it to how it should be. Please keep your insane fanboyism to yourself and remember that this is a game, not the Bible.
I'm sorry, but unless you're actually in frequent contact with the original FF7 writers, this is just plain arrogant. Square commissioned and approved the original English translation, which should at least account for something. In hindsight it can certainly be improved, and you are free to translate it differently (though not necessarily release it, see copyright issue above), but to put forth that you alone know "how it should be" would essentially disqualify you from any translation work in the professional world. The one who treats the subject matter as the Bible-whose-Word-must-not-be-corrupted-lest-you-face-the-Wrath-of-the-Lord seems to be you, and the irony of you accusing your more liberal-spirited (not to mention more polite) opposition of that very thing is enough to cause aneurysms.
If you're aiming for "accurate" in the sense that "minimum amount of detail lost, even if it means requiring people to be familiar with Japanese in order to understand it", then you're on the right track and can safely ignore any criticism from here. The problem is that most people perceive your goal as making a perfect translation that conveys additional meaningful detail that was lost in the existing translation, while still making perfect sense to people who only know English. That is not where you are heading, and I think you can avoid a lot of criticism by being more clear with your goals and being a bit more humble about the whole thing.
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It isn't arrogant in the slightest. If something is written in japanese and translates directly to english I am afraid that is what it should be within reason.
"Spring gun clip" makes no sense either, and loses the whole delight of where they got the name from "spriggan" Likewise, nearly every single japanese person I have spoke to had accepted the overwhelming list of changes we have made. FF7 isn't supposed to be dumbed down so that any fool can understand every single thing. One look at the weapon and armour list will tell you that even in the original english translation some things simply make no sense. If we went down that route where would it end? odin called "horse man" Ramu "Bolt Baddie" I mean, some things have to require knowledge and learning and getting off your ass and learning the culture, Japanese included.
I refuse to accept that not understanding the origin of something is an excuse not to change it. That simply isn't how it works. A person gets off his ass and goes and researches it. Google is right there for them. Mideel means nothing, Midhir does. Same with 100 other changes.
It seems odd that you are arguing "cut" with me when it was already in the original. I am not actually changing that and yet I am still getting panned for it.
If they had meant attack they would have used strike surely? They do in numerous other places and they also use attack. The materia is made for cloud. The description reads for everyone. I can only go off the Japanese and the japanese says it is and so it is. Not to mention people more qualified to talk about these things tha us agree with it.
On moguri, it is a name. It was given a name and that name stands. I don't care 1 iota for what the english translators thought or think. A work of fiction retains its roots and only the autjor of that name is alloweed to change it. In FF7 they accidentally named it "mog" and then changed to moogle, so FF7 was wrong anyway....but moogle does not convey mole bat at all...so even if one were to argue with my choice of keeping moguri, moogle means sh*t all and is a poor choice. Fact.
You mention "professional" translators, have a look at that document at my forum. It is anything but professsional. FF7 has one of the worst translations vs budget I have ever seen.
Again, I sum up with saying that if someone does not like it they have the choice not to install, but I make no apologies for changing it to what it actually is in japanese. There is no argument here and if that makes me arrogant then so be it.
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If you're aiming for "accurate" in the sense that "minimum amount of detail lost, even if it means requiring people to be familiar with Japanese in order to understand it", then you're on the right track and can safely ignore any criticism from here. The problem is that most people perceive your goal as making a perfect translation that conveys additional meaningful detail that was lost in the existing translation, while still making perfect sense to people who only know English. That is not where you are heading, and I think you can avoid a lot of criticism by being more clear with your goals and being a bit more humble about the whole thing.
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I totally agree and will try to convey it better. I try to be humble but I am attacked in threads such as this (OP) with no thoght at all and so obv i get defensive.
Also, there is no such thing as a perfect translation as you know. I set out to geta round 95% and I think we are achieving that.... the 5% loss is something I can tolerate. And if I appear more hostile than usual here, then I apologise. I have been up all night :)
edit: I will bring this cut business up and make sure there is a concensus on it. Your point may be valid. Your post was well made, and I apologise if the tone of my reply sounds bad.
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By making this thread, I was pretty much just pointing out that the last minute of the video was completely pointless. This, and the fact that the Team Avalanche patch is installed, it just looks to me as though you're trying to advertise the video with all the new hi-res stuff. Fair enough, I shouldn't have called it stupid, I didn't really mean to attack the translation project itself. (although, as you could probably tell, I'm one for keeping FF7 Neo-original, and I think some of the stuff in that translation is just totally not needed.)
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By making this thread, I was pretty much just pointing out that the last minute of the video was completely pointless. This, and the fact that the Team Avalanche patch is installed, it just looks to me as though you're trying to advertise the video with all the new hi-res stuff. Fair enough, I shouldn't have called it stupid, I didn't really mean to attack the translation project itself. (although, as you could probably tell, I'm one for keeping FF7 Neo-original, and I think some of the stuff in that translation is just totally not needed.)
Thankyou. yes, you are right, it is advertising mods too. I should have made this clear. I wanted to make people feel more passion for the game. Make them think "wow ff7 is getting made better" and then coming to qhimms. I don't see anything wrong with that...I think getting people involved with this game and seeing that a ps3 remake isnt the be all and end all is a great thing. There are people out there who just don't know how good we can make it here on PC...even if it will never compare to a full rerelease.
The issue with what you have said in the latter is, if I start choosing what to keep and what to get rid of, I am biased. It just doesn't work. So the only items that were not to the japanese were ones that simply sounded awful or didnt work. Cure was kept, Omnislash was kept for example. No one wanted to keep some of these names in tact more than me. I thought Aeris sounded miles better than Aerith but this simply isn't my work, it is Kitase, Nojima, Nomura, Sakaguchi
I will certainly look into Qhimm's "cut" thing and if there is truth to it, that will be changed to strike or attack.
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Thankyou. yes, you are right, it is advertising mods too. I should have made this clear. I wanted to make people feel more passion for the game. Make them think "wow ff7 is getting made better" and then coming to qhimms. I don't see anything wrong with that...
I see a problem with it. You insult the entire community over here in the youtube comments, and then you say you want people to come here and use the mods we make etc. Contradict much?
The issue with what you have said in the latter is, if I start choosing what to keep and what to get rid of, I am biased. It just doesn't work. So the only items that were not to the japanese were ones that simply sounded awful or didnt work. Cure was kept, Omnislash was kept for example. No one wanted to keep some of these names in tact more than me. I thought Aeris sounded miles better than Aerith but this simply isn't my work, it is Kitase, Nojima, Nomura, Sakaguchi
I will certainly look into Qhimm's "cut" thing and if there is truth to it, that will be changed to strike or attack.
Yeah, if this was a proper retranslation, I'd think some of it were ok, such as weapon names etc. (Don't get me wrong, i still wouldn't use it)
But it's pretty clear to me that stuff like "midgar zolom" should definately be kept intact, instead of made into an unreadable blur of letters, just for precision japanese translation. And japanese, as I understand, isn't very accurate for words that are supposed to be english.
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No it doesn't contradict. The people I have criticised directly are 2. For the most part I respect the modders here and that is why I have directed people to Qhimm's albeit under no illusion of the trolls and the fruit loop admin here. I quite clearly state "few" are problems here. That isn't insulting "entire community". You are seeing things that aren't there, a common problem on forums.
As for midgardsormr...it seems that you have not done good research
http://finalfantasy.wikia.com/wiki/Midgardsormr_%28Final_Fantasy_XII%29
You see, the translators themselves have corrected their mistake in titles after VII. Midgardsormr is a norse monster and is 100% correct./ It is as correct as Odin.
Or do you want me to call Odin Ozine? I guess we could call Ramu, Ramesses II
If you are going to criticise what I have done, at least deploy a little research and logic. Your criticism of Midgardsormr is way way off the ball.
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Well, all I read was "the community is screwed over", so, yeah. That's definately there, no doubt, I just failed to see the "By a few" part :P sorry.
Anyway, I'mma stop arguing now, I'm bad at it. I just think that some of the "bad translation" actually gives FF7 a nice little twist of originality.
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Well, all I read was "the community is screwed over", so, yeah. That's definately there, no doubt, I just failed to see the "By a few" part :P sorry.
Anyway, I'mma stop arguing now, I'm bad at it. I just think that some of the "bad translation" actually gives FF7 a nice little twist of originality.
Oh so do I....I actually prefer different naming to established things sometimes :)
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O hai, Seifer. Bai, Seifer. ;D
You really are a pathetic creature. Keep registering and I'll make a nice little subforum filled with your escapades. You know, like the one Hermoor has. I doubt you'd like that, considering how much you like to edit your posts afterwards to make yourself look less of an ass.
TLS sure has plenty of good material for it. ;D
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Funny. I always thought a 'lifetime ban' meant 'stay the **** out'. Must have made a mistake somewhere.
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Funny. I always thought a 'lifetime ban' meant 'stay the **** out'. Must have made a mistake somewhere.
Yes. Clearly he's translated it into something else.
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CARE THREE!
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CARE THREE!
CARAGA!
On a side-note, WTF were the FF translators thinking when they first translated the spell as "cure" in English? It's especially funny that this is called "cure" and status restoring materia is called "heal" in FF7. They got those two things the wrong way around This is one case where it would have made more sense for the translation to be less literal; FFS, one cures illnesses and heals wounds, not the other way around! >:( (well, most of the time)
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CARE THREE!
CARAGA!
On a side-note, WTF were the FF translators thinking when they first translated the spell as "cure" in English? It's especially funny that this is called "cure" and status restoring materia is called "heal" in FF7. They got those two things the wrong way around This is one case where it would have made more sense for the translation to be less literal; FFS, one cures illnesses and heals wounds, not the other way around! >:( (well, most of the time)
Thats a fair point, I'd never really thought about that.
On the side of a side-note - I don't think I've ever used Poisona, Esuna or Resist in FF7. Items are far more handy. And am I right in saying that all materia doesn't work with Esuna and Resist?
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No. Incorrect.
Although sealing the entire party with Resist might not be a good idea anyway. Resist is a nice idea, because it prevents not only positive, but negative spells and their healing. You can cast slow and sleep on a hostile, seal with resist, and then there's nothing they can do, unless they can cast DeSpell. Just a shame that there's never any use for it.
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On the side of a side-note - I don't think I've ever used Poisona, Esuna or Resist in FF7. Items are far more handy.
Although sealing the entire party with Resist might not be a good idea anyway. Resist is a nice idea, because it prevents not only positive, but negative spells and their healing. You can cast slow and sleep on a hostile, seal with resist, and then there's nothing they can do, unless they can cast DeSpell. Just a shame that there's never any use for it.
Tehe. I did a good job making my AI mod apparently. I made antidote or "poisona" not only cure poison, but also "Dual Drain" which can be incurred by the "Drain" spell that I added. Moreover, resist is useful when fighting the turks, who constantly buff themselves with status magic. Rude becomes harmless if you cast resist-all on the turks.
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Rude becomes harmless if you cast resist-all on the turks.
You learn something new every day ^_^
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Rude becomes harmless if you cast resist-all on the turks.
You learn something new every day ^_^
...In my "FF7 Remastered" mod, if you've got the FFVII Remix patch.
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Perhaps I've become hypocritical, but literal translations are often viewed as dull, at least when it's the extreme form of literal.
I suppose that what many of us what is a more modern localization, not something which discards the traditional Final Fantasy series terms.
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Ok ok ok sorry. But I just had to comment on that video.
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Also I don't think anyone was questioning that if the Japanese version used an existing concept and the original translators were too daft to realize the reference (instead outputting a nonsense name that doesn't convey anything), then it is naturally an improvement to fix it.
However, even here there is normally a balance to strike; Japanese people often choose foreign names only for the "cool" feeling they evoke, and directly translating that into something that sounds dull or just weird in English means the feeling is lost. This is often just as important as the literal meaning of the original word, and it is the translators job to try to strike a balance when there is no translation that is both literally, connotationally and emotionally accurate (i.e. most of the time).
In my opinion, a perfect example is the translation of Chrono Trigger's Schala and Janus -- the original Japanese had them as "Sarah" and "Jack". The names sounded cool to them and enhanced the foreign and out-of-place feel of the ancient Zeal kingdom, but had those names been used as-is in the English version, they would have accomplished the complete opposite and detracted from the experience. To us, Sarah and Jack are completely normal names and would have made Zeal feel less of an advanced magical kingdom and more of a kid's show on TV (aired after Barney the Dinosaur). Instead, the translator invented new names (though based the originals) that evoked roughly similar feelings in English audience as the original names did to Japanese people, and credit should go to him for that.
The other point to consider is that when Japanese people put in references to Japanese culture in their writing, it is meant to be easily recognizable (like references to English culture are to us). Retaining it as-is may be more accurate and can sometimes make the text more interesting (primarily to people interested in Japan though), but the translator should always be aware that by doing so, the nature and focus of the sentences shifts as well. For example, turning a trivial cultural reference (the Japanese reference as seen by Japanese people) to an intricate one (the Japanese reference as seen by non-Japanese people) can make the speaker sound more intellectual or alter the intended feel of the sentence altogether.
This retranslation project clearly aims for a very literal translation, and this should be kept in mind when viewing it. Since no changes are being made to accommodate the target audience, it thus remains Japanese. Playing it will not give you the original Japanese experience unless you are well-versed enough to play it in an fully Japanese mindset -- and if you can do that, you might just want to play the Japanese original in order to avoid any confusion. ;)
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Well to be honest Qhimm, I think you are being a bit unfair and over the top when it comes to which names we have chosen and what we have actually done., I don’t quite know what you mean when you say too literal, as the changes we have made are better than the original, more accurate and very often more intelligent because they conform to the whole meaning behind them and not some mistake and that is what tons of these are, let’s not be in ANY doubt about that. A lot of these mistakes have been corrected in FF’s after VII including Midgardsormr.
Also I don't think anyone was questioning that if the Japanese version used an existing concept and the original translators were too daft to realize the reference (instead outputting a nonsense name that doesn't convey anything), then it is naturally an improvement to fix it.
Having seen some of the changes (I am still not sure if you have read the full document at my forum http://break-off.co.uk/viewtopic.php?f=41&t=1003 I can tell you that a lot of these are simply mistakes and have nothing whatsoever to do with “making it sound betterâ€. I don’t understand how you can believe that this near useless translation team did it on purpose when all evidence suggests that the vast majority were done because they simply didn’t have a clue. The fact a lot of these have been corrected in future instalments says a lot about it.
However, even here there is normally a balance to strike; Japanese people often choose foreign names only for the "cool" feeling they evoke, and directly translating that into something that sounds dull or just weird in English means the feeling is lost.
I would say that most names have a good logical background, usually in mythology. Half of these names won’t sound cool to a Japanese person because they too would have to research what they mean. They would have no more idea what a Midgardsormr is than we do before we look into Norse. That is 1 example. There are hundreds. By your logic, if Cloud sound poor to a French person he can opt to call him “claude†I am afraid it all breaks down and becomes a disaster if we start dictating what is or isn’t acceptable. Cloud and strife are chosen specifically to refer to cloud’s mental state being clouded, and strife as ‘in trouble’. Changing his name takes away from this and does not add to it. Unfortunately every other country needs to know English to get that background but so do the Japanese. For the most part FF7’s monsters and names were made from English words. That is how they chose to do it.
This is often just as important as the literal meaning of the original word, and it is the translators job to try to strike a balance when there is no translation that is both literally, connotationally and emotionally accurate (i.e. most of the time).
Again, the literal word is often completely acceptable. Not always, which is why we might have to leave Death Blow, even though it means “certain kill†or “Special Techniqueâ€, but most of them needed no such adjustment.
In my opinion, a perfect example is the translation of Chrono Trigger's Schala and Janus -- the original Japanese had them as "Sarah" and "Jack". The names sounded cool to them and enhanced the foreign and out-of-place feel of the ancient Zeal kingdom, but had those names been used as-is in the English version, they would have accomplished the complete opposite and detracted from the experience.
That is just tough luck. A name is a name. No one has the right to overrule the author because they think it sounds better (unless they have been given authority by them to change ones that sound “badâ€). Where there is lee way there is lee way, but strictly, names are not for changing. I can understand that some people names like Tina sound crap to most westerners and very exotic to Japanese but that is their fault, not the translators and in the case of VII there were no such problems. So this particular example doesn’t apply here. A name is a combination of letters, there is no good or bad, it is all subjective. Most people might think Tina sounds bad and Terra sounds great, well tough luck because that is what the author chose and he may have had his own reasons for chosing it which were not dependant on it sounding cool. (see cloud strife and Barrett fire arms to name 2). I take your point about that affecting the “feel†of the game but it is usually a minor occurrence and again, I say, it is just tough Titty.
Instead, the translator invented new names (though based the originals) that evoked roughly similar feelings in English audience as the original names did to Japanese people, and credit should go to him for that.
A translator translates; he does not dictate what is or is not acceptable. He has no authority to change things like that and this is the reason we have a stereotypical black man in VII when we should have a decent character who doesn’t conform to that stupid and off-putting caricature. You see it works both ways. The translators thought Mr T would be a good idea for VII and instead all it does it make him look like a dumb useless idiot there purely for comic relief. No translator has the right to change a character’s personality. So although you feel changing names is a good thing you have to realise that Translators do not always make good sound choices and sometimes butcher a character as they did with VII.
The other point to consider is that when Japanese people put in references to Japanese culture in their writing, it is meant to be easily recognizable (like references to English culture are to us).
That simply isn’t true. A lot of the references are mythological and have no more meaning to Japanese gamers than they do to us.
This retranslation project clearly aims for a very literal translation, and this should be kept in mind when viewing it
No, it doesn’t. It aims to be faithful to the original creator’s designs and choices. Weapons, armours and accessories and all that goes with it are literal by their very design. There is often NO lee way. NO amount of change required, and most of the changes in VII are mistakes.
If you mean the dialogue, then you are also wrong. We will make this stick to the facts and change it so that the characters retain the personality they were intended to have. The dialogue has lee way, the non dialogue does not. Dialogue in VII was also poor on the whole with many mistakes including ones that ruined the plot (originally Zeng dies in PSX English for example). There are many more of those examples, albeit not as down right disastrous.
Since no changes are being made to accommodate the target audience, it thus remains Japanese.
No, it doesn’t. The Japanese use English, German, French, Chinese words in most of the non dialogue, with mythology strongly attached, some from Japanese. These should be retained. If we want dumbed down FF, then best start changing Odin to “Horse manâ€, Ramu to “Lightning guy†and every single other reference to something everyone will understand.
Personally Qhimm, If you are talking here about non dialogue changes, I think you are way off the mark. If you are talking about dialogue changes, we haven’t made any yet and when we do you will see that lots of it has been rounded so that it fits in with good English and does not sound literal. That does not mean that mistakes are acceptable.
Let us be clear here, FFVII has a poor translation on the whole. Any professional work that spells “because†wrong and has sentences like “this guy are sick†is not professional.
Playing it will not give you the original Japanese experience unless you are well-versed enough to play it in an fully Japanese mindset -- and if you can do that, you might just want to play the Japanese original in order to avoid any confusion.
Again if you are talking about the dialogue changes, then wait and see before casting stones.
Also, I brought up your “Cut†problem and it was dismissed by someone who lives in Japan and knows the language well, he is 1 of my translators and said “They know the difference between Cut and Attack. As far as I am aware this is simply cut, and does not mean anything else.â€
I will ask others but given that 6 of them went through the document and did not point out that as a change I doubt they will be changing opinion (If they do, I will of course change it). Those names were designed for cloud. Same as “Cut all†(slash all) was. Some look just as wrong to a Japanese person, and since it was in the original version, I haven’t changed anything.
I think some people believe I am changing things because I want to do. This isn’t the case. I would love to keep Aeris (I think Aerith sounds crap!) But it comes from English word Earth and that is what the writers wanted. So they are god. End of. I would love to change to “Attack all†and other stuff but I am afraid as far as non dialogue goes, my hands are tied. I am called arrogant, yet it isn’t me arguing with the creators of this game. It isn’t me arguing with multiple Japanese speakers and people who live there and who agree with me 10-1. I think that is a worse kind of arrogance than I have. My arrogance is unashamedly saying that I know better to trust what I am told by people who know the god damn language and that I am sticking to my guns. I can’t make any apologies for that and I never ever will. People can hate me all they like.
I am not here to bend over backwards and change things because they sound better, that starts us down a very slippery slope and I am not going down it. That is why canon was thrown out immediately. Canon is a disease (Hojo’s brain in a computer? Get real. Genesis popping up from nowhere just to carry on this cash cow? ). I am here to make a translation that is how it was intended by the people who created this brilliant game. They are god. We are not.
At the end of the day, you are welcome to criticise (and let it be known right now that I am listening, but this stuff has been brought up 100 times) but I have no authority to go against logic, majority of Japanese people and speakers and the original creators. No one does. If people think they can do a better job with their own research then they can get off their arses and do it (Gemini is doing and I look forward to seeing what he makes of it when we have both finished, I respect he will interpret some things different but that is because dialogue partly requires a person’s own words and “feelâ€). I am sick of slaving away for months and months finding interesting stuff that others apply the most warped kind of logic to in order to attack it. It isn’t my fault that someone thought Ziggy Stardust would be a good reference for a monster in the Great Crater (I actually love that reference) and that some people think Gighee is better even though it means f*** all.
Yes I am arrogant, but that is needed here in order to get this done, it is how I have always operated and it is efficient to taking notice of 100 voices telling me conflicting things about what they want and do not want. There is 1 vision here, the original vision. If people don’t like it, they can go tell Nojima, Nomura, Sakaguchi, Kitase or create their own fan translation, but it isn’t ever going to be “better†than mine, because mine was made to the original vision and was done by listening to Japanese people and speakers and 1000 hours of research. I would point out that at the moment, I know more about this games non dialogue than any other person on the globe apart from the original creators. No I am not joking.
That really is all I have to say on it and I hope this has cleared it up. I won’t be back to explaining my motivations again as I think this makes it very clear. Again I would remind you that Dialogue is a different kettle of fish altogether to non-dialogue and I will probably be needing help in order to get it to gel properly and to sound great. It is a completely different animal. It will NOT be me overruling translators major objections and running rough shod through the game with “what I wantâ€.
[/Quote]you might just want to play the Japanese original in order to avoid any confusion. [/Quote]
Isn’t that the point…this is being translated because most westerner’s cannot do that?
This isn’t a rant or an emotional outburst or a personal attack. It is simply a frustrated and complete response to the many attacks this project gets- I feel, without any real logic whatsoever being applied, and a tunnel vision view that leads to things like Barrett “Mr T†Wallace and Spring Gun Clip. Saying that, there are many people who are actually in agreement with my sentiments and like all things, everyone has a personal taste. They know they don’t have to install the mod, so I don’t understand why some find it necessary to go crackers over this (again not Qhimm). I won’t even get into Removal of Cait Sith project, I want to live to at least 50.
;) :P
Dan. / Colonel Almasy
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A translator translates; he does not dictate what is or is not acceptable. He has no authority to change things like that and this is the reason we have a stereotypical black man in VII when we should have a decent character who doesn’t conform to that stupid and off-putting caricature. You see it works both ways. The translators thought Mr T would be a good idea for VII and instead all it does it make him look like a dumb useless idiot there purely for comic relief. No translator has the right to change a character’s personality. So although you feel changing names is a good thing you have to realise that Translators do not always make good sound choices and sometimes butcher a character as they did with VII.
This is funny. For you to assume that the translators from square did not have the authority to change the things they did is ludacris. They arent pure translators. They also localize the dialog/names to make it fit in more with the target culture. So in this respect qhimm is 100% accurate in the respect that your translation is the same as playing the japanese game.
Well to be honest Qhimm, I think you are being a bit unfair and over the top when it comes to which names we have chosen and what we have actually done., I don’t quite know what you mean when you say too literal, as the changes we have made are better than the original, more accurate and very often more intelligent because they conform to the whole meaning behind them and not some mistake and that is what tons of these are, let’s not be in ANY doubt about that. A lot of these mistakes have been corrected in FF’s after VII including Midgardsormr.
Do you not think this is a bit (very) arrogant? Even if some of these words are more accurate if a person has to sit down and play the game with a dictionary beside him you just defeated the whole purpose of what Square was going for. Mass market appeal. Now what if someone remade the game with all sprites and got rid off all the 3d entirely because that is what all the other final fantasy's were like before that? I am sure you would have some choice words for said person. You seem to forget that square has made many changes in the game that were entirely by design, so that does not make your translation the true FF7. It just makes it one closer to the japanese version.
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The translators may well have been square employees, they were not Nojima, Nomura, Kitase or Sakaguchi and it is not debatable that they made tons of mistakes, it is a fact.
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I am not arguing mistakes (such as this guy are sick). But you are basically saying that anything in the game that doesnt match the japanese in a literal translation was a mistake. Which I am sure not all of them can be, some were most likely intentional. And how do you know that Nojima, Nomura, Kitase or Sakaguchi did not have input into the translation? Have you spoken with them? How do you know they did not have to approve the changes? Look, I am not trying to bash your work here. It is a very interesting thing you are doing. But to call your translation correct while calling the original wrong is just ... wrong.
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Well I will be banned soon, and I am not going into this more. I have pretty much said all I want to. But to reply, I don't know if they did. But certainly they do not seem to know english well so they wouldnt prob have hd any direct contact. In any case, the sheer number of bad translations indicate the vast majority were not intentional.
A few were and we also had to make a few. See the document at my forum and it will all become clear.
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I actually have some sympathy with a few of the things Seifer is saying (I know that's a cardinal sin around here :-P)
The fact that there are so many glaring errors in the translation does suggest that the translators didn't know what they were doing. I'm pretty sure that Square didn't knowingly green light "this guy are sick", "beacause" and "x was cought off guard", so how can we be sure they gave the green light to all of the other liberties the translators took? Of course, that isn't to say that no liberties should be taken; we don't want it sounding like a bad anime fansub.
One also needs to bear in mind that the target audience for a retranslation patch will be different from the target audience Square had for the original game. The latter was aimed at a mass audience, as sl1982 said, so there are times when sacrifices had to be made for the purpose of localisation; to an extent, there might be a dumbing down as well (Square sometimes sees Westerners as less intelligent, so even if a dumbing down wasn't necessary, it might have been encouraged). It was probably made with the belief that the average video game fan doesn't want something that feels too Japanese and doesn't want something that's too intellectually demanding.
A retranslation, both because of it's nature as a retranslation and because it will appeal to people with at least a three-figure IQ, will attract an audience who will be more curious about Japanese culture on average. At the very least, its audience will want something closer to the "authenticity" end of the authenticity-localisation spectrum. Of course, that doesn't mean that there can be any excuse for being over-literal, which is something that I've noticed in this project at times (although the problem isn't as bad now as it was when "cure" was going to be changed to "care"). Furethemore, Qhimm point about names being changed in Chrono Trigger is a good one; sometimes it's good to have something that sounds a little exotic, or to have something that looks like a bastardisation of an English word (bastardisations can be very good for things like weapon and monster names). I suppose what I'm saying is that a balance must be struck, but the balance for the retranslation's audience will be slightly different from the balance for the original translation.
This post, before anyone suggests otherwise, isn't about taking sides; far from it. It's just my partially objective view of the situation.
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Thankyou, a good decent constructive post. I understand that some things will sound maybe a little literal...although this is only non dialogue and very few in number. Care is an interesting subject, as I am beaten over about once being prepared to use it. I must emphasise that I hated the idea but I did not have any choice as that was what the Japanese actually is (well, within reason, they did place ru on the end of a lot of words in FF1 which were then kept). But after further research we discovered that FF1 team might not have been in the know and may have used Cure afterall....and there are plces it is used with that katakana. Knowing there was a reasonable chance of it being Cure, I changed back and marked it as "possibly wrong"
Now, the bigots would have had me use Cure because it sounds better, but I had an open mind and changed it back when there was reasoable evidence I was wrong.
That is how to make a good project. To go over things and research and have an open mind. To some of the items there is no room for open mind as they are facts. Others...we arent sure about but I think that document notes everything I feel is correct, maybe correct, deliberately changed or in fact completely wrong.
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Also I will add that it became clear that there were going to have to be concessions. Omnislash is the largest and I am still stressed out that we weren't able to make it work. The opposition to its change and the vote and the fact omnislash isnt TOO far away from beinga good meaning, meant I left it.
I have not been totally gung ho on literalism (is that a word?).
I under stand that Super War God Slash would simply not work. Funnily enough there is 1 game where they have called the move omnislash in the japanese counterpart. So maybe even the Japanese translators realise that the name just purely sucks ;)
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Now now, let's not call anyone bigots ;D
And yes, Omnislash is a tough one, since Super War God Slash just sounds stupid in English (mind you, Omnislash doesn't sound much better). The only solution would have been to find the name of an arbitrary war god from some mythology and use it, but I'm not sure whether "Ares Slash", "Mars Slash" or "Tyr Slash" would have sounded any better.
It also has to be borne in mind that in certain cases (i.e. when one is thinking about the name of a well-known enemy or weapon that isn't widely known to be a mistranslation), it's best to go with the original for legacy and nostalgia reasons. Midgar Zolom, Safer Sephiroth and Helletic Hojo are well known to be mistranslations, and the right translations sound better, so there's a good reason to change those, but things like "Buster Sword" and "Omnislash" might be better left alone (and both of them are mistranslations, unless we suppose the translators just didn't want the word "bastard" popping up in the menu screen all the time).
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Ok it isn't. I did check into this and found slightly diff katakana....anyway they share same. I will check this again.
ãƒã‚¹ã‚¿ãƒ¼ Buster
ãƒã‚¹ã‚¿ãƒ¼ Bastard
edit: Strange this dictionary has changed since lst time, there was a slight variation. Now it shows both as that. I am guessing both come out as same katakana, and it isn't possible to know which was meant, although obv bastard is favoured (well kinda since buster sword looks nothin liek a longsword). I will have to look into this yet again.
edit 2: http://ja.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E3%83%90%E3%82%B9%E3%82%BF%E3%83%BC%E3%83%89%E3%82%BD%E3%83%BC%E3%83%89 yeah it does seem to be more ãƒã‚¹ã‚¿ãƒ¼ãƒ‰ for bastard as in sword, though it is said that it was changed due to a limit in characters, but 8 characters seems ok...strange. Maybe they did mean bastard and maybe they didnt. I will look into this for sure.
We did put Hachiman slash and those others to the vote....and it did geta few, but omnislash was just too great and I had to abide by vote which was across 2 forums. Would have been here too but what can I do
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The katakana for Buster Sword, "ãƒã‚¹ã‚¿ãƒ¼ã‚½ãƒ¼ãƒ‰" was frequently used as the transliteration for bastard-sword in early Japanese games due to the limit on characters.
Did any of the Japanese versions of FF7 ever have a 7 character limit? (8 including the null-terminator I suppose). It doesn't really follow 100% that the creators weren't going for "Buster Sword" but rather "Bastard Sword" if not, but I suppose if it were recognizable enough to Japanese Gamers as such, it's a possibility.
The Japanese do tend to abbreviate things in the middle like "pasokon" (Personal Computer) or "terebii" (Television) even if it isn't necessary.
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http://ja.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E3%82%B6%E3%83%83%E3%82%AF%E3%82%B9%E3%83%BB%E3%83%95%E3%82%A7%E3%82%A2#.E3.83.90.E3.82.B9.E3.82.BF.E3.83.BC.E3.82.BD.E3.83.BC.E3.83.89
Well I will have some japanese speaker run through that as it does make a distinction. You may be correct titeguy about the terminator use. Any case I think buster wouldnt be too much of a concession as atm there doesnt seem to be any way to verify if they did mean buster. Bastard seems more logical though...
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Well given the fact that bastard swords to exist and are named as such in many other games makes me wonder if they were trying for a more 'pg' type name. If the original japanese was bastard sword then maybe it should be changed. Given the fact that the item name is not uncommon or unheard of in the english language. But tough call on that one as buster sword has become a staple of ff7 'religion' so to speak.
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http://www.ne.jp/asahi/personal/heaven/games/bof4/weapon.html
The only issue is that games like BOF use the preferred spelling and not the one FF7 used.
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If you look at the western interpretation of a Bastard sword, it's just a fairly regular looking sword but if you look at Eastern interpretations it looks bigger with a very large blade. In FFVII's case Bastard would have been correct.
Western:
(http://img535.imageshack.us/img535/5861/bastardsword.jpg)
Eastern:
(http://img135.imageshack.us/img135/8655/japbastardsword.png)
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But tough call on that one as buster sword has become a staple of ff7 'religion' so to speak.
My point exactly.
Buster Sword also gives it more individuality. Bastard Sword is kind of a general sword type; you may as well call it "Broadsword". Buster Sword isn't, so it sounds more like the name of a specific sword rather than the class of swords to which it belongs; it sounds more like a proper noun than a common noun.
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That complicates matters....but still BOF seems to use the accepted, and FF7 had no limit and this sword hasn't appeared in earlier FF's? has it?
If not then I think we can just about go with Buster....
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But tough call on that one as buster sword has become a staple of ff7 'religion' so to speak.
My point exactly.
Buster Sword also gives it more individuality. Bastard Sword is kind of a general sword type; you may as well call it "Broadsword". Buster Sword isn't, so it sounds more like the name of a specific sword rather than the class of swords to which it belongs; it sounds more like a proper noun than a common noun.
It's no longer a type of sword, but is now the name of Cloud's sword. I don't know if ya'll have Hardee's or Carl's Jr in England, but here they call the hamburgers "Thick Burgers". It's not that the burger is thick, it's just the name of that particular burger.
Also, in your translation haven't you changed other things that are now considered to be canon? If so you may as well go with Bastard.
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http://finalfantasy.wikia.com/wiki/Ravager_%28Final_Fantasy_Tactics_A2%29
also uses ãƒã‚¹ã‚¿ãƒ¼ãƒ‰
There isn't enough evidence to suggest bastard is correct....it could be either as it stands and even FF games seem to have used ãƒã‚¹ã‚¿ãƒ¼ãƒ‰ and not ãƒã‚¹ã‚¿ãƒ¼ I will do some more digging. As it stands I will keep Buster but add a note :)
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http://finalfantasy.wikia.com/wiki/List_of_Final_Fantasy_XII_Weapons
12 uses:
http://finalfantasy.wikia.com/wiki/Bastard_Sword
and is not the FF7 katakana. Assuming this is correct, Buster it is. If that sword on FF6 uses the preferred spelling, then we can go with Buster with at least a pretty good liklihood that it is right. So far it seems to be the case
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although ff12 has a bastard sword, that firstly resembles a bastard sword a lot more than the buster sword and also from ff12,
gilgamesh has the buster sword (albeit a fake)
(http://images3.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20071214131954/finalfantasy/images/e/ee/%27s_swords.jpg)
(http://images1.wikia.nocookie.net/finalfantasy/images/thumb/4/45/FF12Gilgamesh.JPG/200px-FF12Gilgamesh.JPG)
and as mentioned above it has become more the name of the sword rather than the type. it is unique.
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Hi everyone, I've been working with Dan on the translation (although not nearly as hard or as often as I would have liked) just thought I'd chip in my two sen.
Maybe a little bg info on me might help first, I live and work in Japan and a small part of my work is translations (although hardly ever fiction), I have a degree in Japanese and a level 2 JLPT (hopefully I'll have the 1 later this year, I flunked it last December ;D ). I'm not trying to turn this into some kind of e-penis post though, I've met many a person with no qualifications who can do a far better job than me, I just want you to know that I'm not talking crap all of the time!
First off it isn't our intention to do a literal translation, I hope this will be clearer when we start doing the actual dialogue, in fact some of the dialogue in the menus and world map that we have redone isn't literal at all.
So far a few of the monster names, weapons, items etc have been kept close to the Japanese for a few reasons, e.g. some are wholly Japanese concepts like Hachimaki or Uchide mallet for which there is no exact English equivalent (i.e. we don't use "spy" in the place of "ninja"), and quite a few we just have no clue, which leads me to another point.
There is a huge amount of evidence that the original translator(s) were rushed, had poor communication channels, were incompetent or more likely a combination of these. Some of the English suffers from poor grammar - "This guy are sick" - (usually indicates a rushed job), being out of context -"Cloud, that one!"- (i.e. was translated as a block of text by people who hadn't even seen the game), and at times is just plain wrong -"Zauger's cup"- (I don't know what to say) and a lot of the monster names (no communication with the original creators). Bizzarro Sephiroth is a personal favorite ;D
This isn't to say that the original translation should be binned, most of the characters were very well characterized and I think we'll be keeping a lot of the original flavor and text.
As sadly we can't just phone Nomura & co. (well I suppose we could try, probably wouldn't go down very well!), for some of the (non-dialogue) material we have no choice but to do a 1:1 with the Japanese because that's all we're left with. Very often the original translation's solution was to just come up with something that sounded similar, which I don't think is necessarily a better way of doing things at best, but more importantly it eliminates any concept of what should be considered the English "canon".
There are so many holes in the original translation that it is very hard to take any of it at face value; why should any of it be automatically considered "official"?
We also have far, far more information available at our fingertips than the original translators would have had, which has allowed us to catch many more references to people, places and mythology than the original translation, not to mention far more input and criticism, both very important as we can and have definitely been wrong about many things (and I hope it keeps coming).
At the end of the day this is just another community mod; hopefully the finished product will be as close as possible to the original without sounding like a 5th rate fansub. Again without a direct line to square we can't be sure on some things, but with so many clues in the original translation suggesting the same, I don't see how it can be worse.
The best thing is of course this in no way alters anything, love it or hate it you're free to install or ignore it as you please.
I'll answer any questions to the best of my abilities.
(sorry for the constant edits, crappy grammar here and there)
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Welcome and thanks for giving a little bit more insight into what you are doing. Like i told seifer before I will hold judgement until i actually see the translation in effect. And we do appreciate the way you explained it. It is far more helpful then things like this:
Yes I am arrogant, but that is needed here in order to get this done, it is how I have always operated and it is efficient to taking notice of 100 voices telling me conflicting things about what they want and do not want. There is 1 vision here, the original vision. If people don’t like it, they can go tell Nojima, Nomura, Sakaguchi, Kitase or create their own fan translation, but it isn’t ever going to be “better†than mine, because mine was made to the original vision and was done by listening to Japanese people and speakers and 1000 hours of research. I would point out that at the moment, I know more about this games non dialogue than any other person on the globe apart from the original creators. No I am not joking.
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The biggest thing I dislike about it is the unwillingness to stick to things that are now staples in Final Fantasy. It's been over 10 years since this game came out, so if SE is still using (Cure instead of Care.. just kidding guys :-P) I personally think it should remain. Soft use to be and is once again Golden Needle, so changing it makes sense. Religious and Cultural references that the translators missed also makes sense. But like Qhimm said, I think keeping the FEELING of the game is paramount (see Tina vs Terra)
Anyways, I think a lot of us just got a bad taste in our mouths when all the drama about this happened months ago.
I do genuinely look forward to thoroughly reviewing every last change ya'll made before installing it :D
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Well to be fair the English versions of Square games aren't exactly a bastion of consistency, some things seem to change name with each FF.
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Luksy has pretty much covered it. We aren't intending to do a literal mess up of the dialogue. In fact, the world map dialogue was virtually unaltered. There will be a lot of the game that is left alone simply because it works and works well. I am already thinking about things Sephiroth said in PSX version which were taken away in PC "Without giving one whit in return" I think these things sounded good. Some of the dialogue is completely fine.
It has never been our intention to paste over the cracks, we have to fill in the holes and this means that yes, some of it will be different, but at least it will still sound better and be as it was intended. I understand that Tina does not sound as good to a westerner as Terra, but if people start deciding names of characters on a whim, we lead ourselves down a slippery slope.
I don't think anyone here would be happy if Cloud was "Claude" in France, or "Klauss" in Germany or any other name.... His name was chosen from english...and when you get rid of that, you degrade the purity of the game. Well imho it does.
Som of the references that are kept are extremely cool and when you look them up you get it. Same way that the first time you looked up Odin you understood why he was on a deformed horse. There are so many mythologies incorporated into FF7 from Japanese through to Scottish myths.
The full list of changes are already available at my forum, although there are a few holding us up from releasing it at this moment. One of them is what to use for
Mako Reactor No.1
Choices
Mako Reactor No.1
Mako Reactor 1
Mako Reactor #1
and:
District No.1
District 1
District #1
Small things like that I have asked people which they prefer. When we do release this mod part 1 it will be given a release number, because I am sure more things will crop up and small mistakes will need correcting. I want you to know that we respect the original text and do not plan to butcher it all. We respect the game and the storyline and I respect the fact some people will simply not touch this mod with a barge pole :)
The release will never be perfect. I knew going into this that the best we could hope for with non dialogue was around 95% (We mark things in fuchsia when we simply haven't got a clue what they are) and that dialogue is subjective. I didn't realise just how much japanese leaves to the translator dialogue wise and it will be a different kind of problem to what the non dialogue has been.
In fact the process we had with Buster Sword here on the forum is exactly the same as the ones me and the translators (especially Luksy) have. We go over these things again and again, and then see if there is anything else it could be, and see which is more likely given logic, common sense and evidence.
Have a look:
http://break-off.co.uk/viewtopic.php?f=47&t=1003
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AFAIK, Cloud is Clad in french :P
Also, as cool as some of the references can be, why should we have to look up every other word in a game? wouldnt that heavily detract from the gameplay experience, porting over to wikipedia or google or whatnot whenever we dont get something?
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Well not all references are foreign....given that they mixed them, a lot are english, take knights of round :P It doesn't really detract and of course the description is the most important thing. When you look at Uchide Mallet, you see what it does, then if you want to know what it means you open google. The original was no better. Some of the names they made in place of the actual ones are just as baffling, and in fact, some seem to be complete nonsense.
Cornucopia > ã†ã¡ã§ã®ã“ã¥ã¡ > Uchide Mallet
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uchide_no_kozuchi ]
And on Cloud, if they did change to Clad, that is my point....it just loses all its meaning and background. I think it is a poor way to operate, I am sure there are those that disagree. I understand Enix will want to localise a lot of things because they want a game to sell, but when has the sales had anything to do with what is more correct? I understand their point of view but it is based on a need to sell more and to get the game more popular and not preserving the essence of what the game is.
It is the same with the easy battles....maybe what Square need to do with a remake of VII is have 2 translations and 2 difficulty modes...I don't like being dumbed down and dragged down just because of mass market appeal.
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AFAIK, Cloud is Clad in french :P
Also, as cool as some of the references can be, why should we have to look up every other word in a game? wouldnt that heavily detract from the gameplay experience, porting over to wikipedia or google or whatnot whenever we dont get something?
The purpose of an effective translation is to make the native speakers of the receiving language have to do *less* looking up in order to understand the essentials, although I've convinced myself that Seifer's project prioritizes staying true to the original Japanese references. I.e. not sacrificing original concept for cultural coherence; effectively an English "port" of the Japanese names and dialogue.
In a normal translation, you'd take the things that are obvious to native japanese speakers, and change them so that they'd be obvious to English speakers, even if that changes the original concept of the name.
Seifer is trying to (as I've gathered) maintain every reference and name concept from the original, even if that means that English speakers will have to do more googlizing.
EDIT:
@Seifer, if that's a correct reference, then i believe the Uchide no Kozuchi is referenced twice in the game--counting the enemy skill "Magic Hammer". Unless that was also different in the Japanese version.
BTW, if Square did a remake, I'd rather have an option for Japanese dialogue then a second English translation.
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Shouldn't the name of this topic be changed or something?
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Magic hammer is in english
マジックãƒãƒ³ãƒžãƒ¼
majikkuhanmaa
Uchide mallet is japanese and references that myth.
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Seifer is trying to (as I've gathered) maintain every reference and name concept from the original, even if that means that English speakers will have to do more googlizing.
Aka he is preserving and protecting the original culture instead of turning it into English/American bullshit. I know that both Seifer and I are tired of Americans and Englishmen raping other cultures, you loose so much information if you change what doesn't sound cool in english into something that sounds cool but degrades the story or the characters.
I think all of you fanboys and girls should look at your game, and find what square has taken from other cultures and look more into the source material. When they made Final Fantasy VII or came up with it. They were picking parts from every great work of fiction or religion that exists. Midgard for example is a direct ripoff of the world of humans in norse mythology. If you break down Midgard you get Middle garden. Garden could be translated to world. So it's the world in the middle. The world between Asgard, (the world of gods) and hell.
And that is what they call the big city. The midgard zolom is something that the translators just dumbed down. Because the audience (Americans and Canadians) wouldn't see the connection between midgard and the midgardsorm. Midgardsorm is Midgards orm...orm is the word for snake or serpent in swedish. Making the literal english translation Midgard's serpent. Midgards zolom which may sound cool isn't the right translation.
Also If we break down Midgard, midgardsorm. Becomes the serpent of the world. That is the great snake Thor couldn't lift because it circled around the entire world. You should not dumb something down because the target audience can't understand it. Final Fantasy VII is a perfect example of raping cultures and mythology to cash in money fast. Hardly a work of art, it's a good game. Fun to play etc, but if you are not a 12 year old american. And a part of one of these other cultures that the japanese in this case raped. It's very offending.
What the japanese basically did, they toook the great stories from norse...hindu...christian and nature religions. Made a drama out of it, featuring villains dressed as goths and heroes being emos. Put in the average schoolgirl into it, made a cute puffy little marhmellow. Dressed the characters so they would appeal to the target audience...12-17 year olds...probably a bit higher. This is something you can't see, Final Fantasy VII isn't a original piece of art. It's a money sucker...
What makes the game great is what it rips off. The whole lifestream idea is a direct ripoff of some tribes religion living in the fillipines. I don't remember exactly, Sephiroth is a direct rip off of the angel Lucifer that was banished from Paradise by god. And wants to overthrow god and become a god himself. (Now you all know where they got the angel wings from.) Many many names has been taken directly from norse religion. For example Alfred, who I read in Seifers list of changed names. Isn't really a english name at all. I think Seifer already know this.
Alfred is a viking name. That could be broken down into All fred. Meaning all peace, maybe not what Square was looking at when they made the character. But still it's a example of something the english culture has indeed taken from the norse culture. The whole idea about Jenova, the name itself is taken from christianity. The alien idea isn't very original but it's something the american culture has spewn out. And it's not such a big deal maybe...Allien comes to my mind. And it makes sense as well, I think 2-3 of the alien movies were made just before they made Final Fantasy VII.
A coincidence, no it's not. They were movies popular at the time, and Square stole it. With sephiroth they have ripped of Frankensteins monster as well. And Dracula with Vincent. It's amazing how in every part of the game you can see traces from about every religion and culture in the world. Nanakati and the little mountain village they took from the Native american indians. The pyramid that the black materia is stored in. Again something they stole from Mayan/Egyptian culture.
If you look at the big cratar, which is suppose to represent hell. And lucifer on the last plane, Cloud IS VERY SIMILAR TO Dante. Dante too lost his wife because of his sins, and he wanted revenge on lucifer and traveled through hell to reach and kill lucifer and free his wife. Exactly what Cloud is trying to do. Sephiroth is not a original creation, or villain. No american created work of fiction is very original at all.
I can go on forever, so many things they ripped of making this game. I want all fanboys/girls to understand this. Final Fantasy VII is a game that has ripped of most of the epic stories of the world. Combined it with fashion and cute emo boys and school girls. To make it appeal to the target audience....btw why do you think Final Fantasy VIII takes place on a school?
When Seifer is translating or correcting the games original creation. He doesn't just make the game better. He also is giving better credit to the cultures the original creators of the game ripped of. Making it possible for maybe some fanboy or girls out there to discover some work of fiction that is even greater than the abomination that is Final Fantasy VII.
Yes personally I think Final Fantasy VII is a mess. But I give credit for Seifer for continuing on the translation. And fixing the errors that is in it. So at least what the original creators made makes sense not only sounds cool. You should stop talking shit on Seifer because he is changing what your bible sais. Your bible...as bad as it is. Is in need of some fixing. You should be grateful for him fixing it. If I would be Seifer I would not even post it here.
I encourage you to go out and find better art or create art yourself. Religion is a waste of time as is Final Fantasy VII. Maybe I should not be too harsh on you, I mean Final Fantasy VII contains so much religious and mythological references that it's probably very easy to become a believer...but remember you won't live forever. And any illusion what so ever is a waste of life. Even your lifes to some extent are illusions...but I won't completely slay you.
Just do me a favor and thank Seifer for making this translation ok??
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This is where I fundamentally disagree with Hermoor's criticism about FF7. I feel that yes it uses other stories and ideas and it references many mythologies but so do most stories. It is very very hard to be completely original and FF7 is pretty dam n original on its own even if certain stories may have been done before or slightly familiar. Every single story can be made to look as though it is copied, when that isn't the case. Every pit could be called hell, every sky heaven, every idea can be said to be something else when in reality it isn't.
I also disagree with the emo goth issue. I think anyone who likes this game for those reasons needs a slap, because the game is supposed to be dark and supposed to be a new story, it is not supposed to conform to some awful sterotype, even if it has been hijacked as such.
I do agree with Hermoor that the original cultures should be preserved. The midgar Zolom however was not deliberately changed, it was a mistake by a translator who simply did not have a clue what the romaji meant or what the katakana was referencing. It was corrected in future instalments.
And alfred was actually probably referencing this >
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alfred_the_Great
I notice the katakana looks more like Ælfrēd so it probably is intended to be written in the old way.
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Dressed the characters so they would appeal to the target audience...12-17 year olds...probably a bit higher.
I dunno, I pretty much enjoyed the game a lot when I was 7. :)
Just do me a favor and thank Seifer for making this translation ok??
No. ;D
PS: Seifer, I've heard that you could be a decent guy when you're not trolling forums. Really, if you don't want people thinking even lower of you, I would definitely suggest you don't team up with an idiot that everyone makes fun of. For your own sake, take my friendly advice. :)
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This is where I fundamentally disagree with Hermoor's criticism about FF7. I feel that yes it uses other stories and ideas and it references many mythologies but so do most stories.
Yeah many modern works rips off the stories from the past. And sure they can be great...The lord of the rings is a book that has indeed ripped of A LOT of norse mythology and especialy finnish folklore. But at least it has many original parts in it. Final Fantasy VII rips off every culture out there...combining it with stuff that is cool for teens. And I'm not a fan of that at all. Especially since square is now milking it...everyone should be aware of the brainwashing and money milking that is going on. And that much of what holywood and games today are spewing out is a complete ripoff of other cultures stories.
PS: Seifer, I've heard that you could be a decent guy when you're not trolling forums. Really, if you don't want people thinking even lower of you, I would definitely suggest you don't team up with an idiot that everyone makes fun of. For your own sake, take my friendly advice. Smiley
Seifer is a good friend of mine, he would never backstab me, because I'm pointing out the obvious. American culture is ripping of other cultures around the world. And most people aren't even aware of it.
I dunno, I pretty much enjoyed the game a lot when I was 7. Smiley
We are all kids sweetheart...;)
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I am not teaming up with him but nor am I trolling and nor was he that abusive just then...I don't take such Exception to his views on FF7 even though I disagree with many. I have some respect for Hermoor because he is a good modeller who stuck his neck out to help me with another project. Hermoor did not used to go round being as bad as he has recently, and I am sure that eventually he will outgrow it. He certainly won't outgrow it or go away if he is being baited or having his own playpen.
I have told hermoor 100 times to move on and stop the silliness, at the end of the day that is his decision. I have moved on from all that nonsense, and I am busy with life on and off computer.,
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I think Seifer and I have some different views on art in general. I'm not such a big fan of Final Fantasy VII, the only reason I got here in the first place was because of Final Fantasy IX. Which I'm slowly growing away from, even though it's a great game! Seifer is a big fan of Final Fantasy VII, even makes a huge translation project on it. And he is a smart good guy, unlike some of you. He isn't a fanboy either...to my understanding....since he is willing to rewrite the "bible". I suspect the reason he disses me...>_> Is because he wants to advertist his translation project. Well...with ammo gone. And since this forum is only about Final Fantasy VII modding, I don't really have any purpose to linger here any longer. I would like to clarify, that all the trolling I have been doing to you guys...have been just as much fun as it has been for you as it has been for me. Many of my opinions on life that I have posted here has been true. And I really don't like emos and cosplayers...many of you I really have a grudge on. Kudistos...is a real freak of nature. We all know it...but some of what I have said has been exaggerated for the lulz...hope you all grow out of it.
Btw...Timusumisu, give me credit for that Red XIII model you little....and Seifer I hope you are still helping me translate the video? ;)
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lol @ Hermaphrodite. Always worth a chuckle. I'll read that 7-page poast sometime when I need a lift.
Just because the katakana reads "magic hammer" doesn't mean the reference isn't there. Of course, there's no need to re-translate it as "Uchide Mallet" since that's not even what it was called in the Japanese version, I just find it funny that it's referenced twice. Even funnier that it was written differently. Unless the resemblance is utterly coincidental, the odds of which are slim.
My guess is that different people came up with the names for the attacks and items.
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Hee hee, Hermie-kun can be quite the brown-nose when he thinks someone might take his side. :lol:
Oh, and on your dubious knowledge of etymology, Alfred is an old English name dumbkopf. Alf = elf, red = plan/idea/counsel (it's a cognate with read). Therefore, Alfred = he who is counselled by elves. Or who is as wise as the elves. Or something like that.
As for Midgardsormr, didn't we have an argument about that a long time ago? And didn't you say the complete opposite? Nice backtracking Hermie-kun; this means that you agree with me :-D
And since this forum is only about Final Fantasy VII modding, I don't really have any purpose to linger here any longer
(http://img98.imageshack.us/img98/4688/konatalaughingreaction.png)
Oh lol! You haven't had any reason to come here since you decided that we were all emo fanboys, but you've stayed here and you've come back every time you've been banned. You do need to stay here. Dunno why; maybe you just like being humiliated? Anyway, we all know that you can't function without these forums and the trolling opportunities they give to you. Oh, and the attention, we all know that you like the attention. Presumably you don't get enough of it IRL. Maybe your strict mother prefers your siblings because they do better in school (after all, she wants a son who'll do well in life, and you've failed at that already)? Maybe the other kids don't play with you? Who knows?
And finally, for how long are you going to take credit for Jari leaving? It's obvious that it had nothing to do with you, so why pretend it has? I hate to tell you, but we can all see through your lies very easily, just like we can see through your lie that you're not going to troll any more and that your previous trolling didn't reflect how you really feel. I've got news for you: we've seen your accounts on other forums and we've seen the way you act there. Clearly, your trolling wasn't just to get rid of Jari. If it were, why do you act the same way on other forums, getting banned and having your threads locked?
It seems to me that your just one of those trolls who like to pretend that things you did in the past didn't happen so that you can get away with them. That's why you delete and edit your posts and why Jari took those privileges away from you.
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What forums exactly? This is the only place where I have done some serious trolling....not any other place. If you are thinking about the lord of the rings forum. That admin was crazy...everyone who gives opinions to him. That isn't in his favor he bans...Blender artist I have never trolled on. This is the only place that really is worth trolling since most people who stay on this forum either are freaks or just weird. Internet is a place to have fun, and trolling believe it or not is fun! You were all lolling...and me too. Probably more than any of you, since it was I who was trolling. All this time you have believed I was that crazy hermoor guy lol lol lol. I'm not as mental as you believe I am, I just love to f*** with weird people. And you are indeed a weird man Kudistos...hahah, all of you people are weirdos. :D :D
Just look at the thread titles...
My Apology
Girl Gamers Paid to Play?
Cloud
naruto (and the like) roleplaying
Battle with the Four Fiends
More PSP Hacking. FF7 PC on the PSP. *maybe more legality issues*
OC Remix and Others... Your Favourite Tracks?
Your favorite Final Fantasy game and why.
Is it just me or did the modify option just disappear?
GIANT EVIL MONEYS ^_^
I'm not trolling now, just pointing at the obvious. Either you people got no life, or you are just weird...this is not normal...
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I'd say you were definitely trolling on those forums, unless you really did believe what you were saying (which wouldn't be a surprise). You acted like an arsehole there just like you do here, and you spouted the same idiotic beliefs about how the world works.
Oh, and you're backtracking again
(http://img227.imageshack.us/img227/174/trollface.png)
You're the weird person, and you were the one who was getting trolled. I don't think anyone is going to believe that you were pretending to be stupid because there's no reason for anyone to do that; we were all laughing at you. We kept you around because you were so funny. If you were trolling you'd have annoyed us and we'd have got rid of you, but instead you gave us a lot of lulz ;D
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Alf = elf, red = plan/idea/counsel (it's a cognate with read). Therefore, Alfred = he who is counselled by elves. Or who is as wise as the elves. Or something like that.
As for Midgardsormr, didn't we have an argument about that a long time ago? And didn't you say the complete opposite? Nice backtracking Hermie-kun; this means that you agree with me grin
Btw that is not correct, and I was wrong on the breakdown of the word. It is orginally a viking name. You are correct on Alf red..but alf is elf in swedish. The original norse name is Ælfræd...AElf means elf. æd means råd. Council in english, Alfred is indeed english. But it comes from the norse name Ælfræd. Meaning it's not orginally english...and it means Elf Council. So you are wrong...you are so full of it.
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Alf = elf, red = plan/idea/counsel (it's a cognate with read). Therefore, Alfred = he who is counselled by elves. Or who is as wise as the elves. Or something like that.
As for Midgardsormr, didn't we have an argument about that a long time ago? And didn't you say the complete opposite? Nice backtracking Hermie-kun; this means that you agree with me grin
Btw that is not correct, and I was wrong on the breakdown of the word. It is orginally a viking name. You are correct on Alf red..but alf is elf in swedish. The original norse name is Ælfræd...AElf means elf. æd means råd. Council in english, Alfred is indeed english. But it comes from the norse name Ælfræd. Meaning it's not orginally english...and it means Elf Council. So you are wrong...you are so full of it.
http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?term=Alfred
Looks like these people are full of it as well ;D
Tell me, why do you think that any English word that has a Norse cognate must have been stolen? You do know that English is closely related to the Scandinavian languages and that the Anglo-Saxons and mediaeval Scandinavians shared a common mythology, don't you? That means they share a lot of things; one didn't steal from the other. Sowwy, but Ælfræd is in Old English as well as Old Norse. Sounds like you're the one who is full of it, always accusing everyone else of "stealing" your culture.
They're not. Either Alfred is a very ancient name that pre-dates the spilt between the North Germanic and West Germanic languages, or is is a name that developed in both cultures independently. Both are very real possibilities.
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The name is orginally from scandinavia. The king you are talking about got the name from the vikings. It's nothing the englishmen invented or has been with them since the beginning. Alfred and many other words/names you englishmen have. Orginally came from scandinavia...Alfred is a name your king took yes. Not orginally a scandinavian name, but the names origin is still from scandinavia. England isn't famous for being vikings, you have never been vikings. Some of you came from scandinavia and denmark. But you are not vikings...you indeed took a lot from the vikings. Since england was under viking control for a couple of hundred years. Then you developed your own culture and stories/myths. Alfred is a version of the scandinavian name Ælfræd...that you got from the vikings so you are once again wrong Kudistos. Anyway, why am I still arguing with a fool. I'm gonna keep working on my masterpiece model...see ya weirdos!
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How many times do you have to be told? :-D FFS, Anglo-Saxon and Norse language and culture had a common origin :roll:
Christ, you really are a great big jingoist. The name isn't Scandinavian. It's an English word with a Scandinavian counterpart.
Tell me, when you hear a Dane using a word that's used in Swedish, do you say that the Danes took that word from the Swedes? Well, you probably do, but I'm sure most Swedes wouldn't. Why do I make this comparison? Because Old English and Old Norse had as much in common with each other as modern Swedish and Danish. I'm trying to make this as simple to understand as I can, because you're a simple person. Only an idiot would assume that a word can't exist in both languages without having been taken by one of them. And there's no reason why an Anglo-Saxon king would have a Scandinavian name, especially as he was king of Wessex, which was never conquered.
Oh, wikipedia agrees with me as well:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alfred_%28name%29
The name Alfred is of English origin
(history page (http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Alfred_%28name%29&action=history), so you can't accuse me of editing it).
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Pity no mod here so we could split the good stuff from this nonsense....and I am not dissing anyone. I have my own views on things and I would much rather come into this thread to see some good translation discussion to all what has been going on around here day after day times 10000.
It has gone too far and it is seriously boring.
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The name Alfred is of English origin
Of course it is, no one is saying it isn't. It's a english name, that derived from the norse original name of it. English is a new language that wasn't around when norse existed. Alfred is a version of the original norse name. Now stop it kudistos, you have lost this argument. Alfred is english name, but without the norse Alfread it would not have existed in the english language. Just as you would not have been able to build boats. The entire western civilization ows the norse vikings a lot and the greek civilization. In the end, everything the western civilization has got came from greece and scandinavia.
In asia, it's china...in europe it's scandinavia and greece. America is just a dumb version of england. I would say america is what Final Fantasy VII is. A mess...since it has so many different cultures in it. And that you compare with final fantasy VII that has taken so much from other great works of fiction and mythology. You should study the original works...they are the greatest. You should study the original languages because they are the greatest. But wtf am I doing...hahaha SOOOOOOO FUNNNNNNY...
And seifer....you are a fanboy too. It's pretty obvious...lol. Well you should thank me for making you that skoll model. And you never gave back the favor. Shows what kind of people the englishmen really are, they take but never give back. Also they are very arrogant people...
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The name Alfred is of English origin
Of course it is, no one is saying it isn't. It's a english name, that derived from the norse original name of it. English is a new language that wasn't around when norse existed. Alfred is a version of the original norse name. Now stop it kudistos, you have lost this argument. Alfred is english name, but without the norse Alfread it would not have existed in the english language. Just as you would not have been able to build boats. The entire western civilization ows the norse vikings a lot and the greek civilization. In the end, everything the western civilization has got came from greece and scandinavia.
No, you really don't get it do you? it is not derived from anything that could be called "Norse". It's either from a common ancestor or independent developments in both languages.
You should study the original languages because they are the greatest.
As it happens, I'm quite well-versed in Ancient Greek and I know a fair bit of Latin as well. Hell, I've even dabbled in Old Norse, and my Hermóðr thread shows that I know more about it than you do. Sowwy Hermoor, but ancient languages are a strong point of mine. You're not going to win.
Of course, I'm under no illusion that I can convince you of anything because your religious belief in Swedish superiority is too strong for you to accept anything other than Sweden being the greatest country in the world and the inventor of everything. However, I like showing off and I like humiliating you, so I'll continue to argue ;D
Shows what kind of people the englishmen really are, they take but never give back. Also they are very arrogant people...
We're arrogant? You're the one claiming your people are the sole reason for the advancement of Northern Europe. No, it's generally the people from the smaller countries that are more arrogant because they feel the need to replace their inferiority complex with a superiority complex. You're making up a fake history to make yourself feel better.
Also, we should be arrogant. The English did more to create the modern world than any other nation. Certainly more than Sweden did.
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Just so you know it, everyone every single person I know. Look at oh...why do you call yourself that arrogant bastards. GREAT brittain...great? Well, everyone I know that hasn't been englishman or american. Look at america and england as arrogant bastards. If you go down to spain or italy for holiday. It is always the englishmen that are fat and talking REALLY loud. Always...you are very arrogant and in many peoples opinion stupid.
It's kinda like how you englishmen look at USA. You see them as loud farmers...sweden and many other countries around europe sees the Englishmen as snobby arrogant loud idiots. You really seem to think you know everything. Hermodr was a name I picked a long time ago. And I didn't pay attention to the D letter...of course it's hermodr. But hermoor sounds fine, and at least it's orginal.
As it happens, I'm quite well-versed in Ancient Greek and I know a fair bit of Latin as well. Hell, I've even dabbled in Old Norse, and my Hermóðr thread shows that I know more about it than you do. Sowwy Hermoor, but ancient languages are a strong point of mine. You're not going to win.
You seem to think I care?? I don't get why you would like to learn those languages anyway. Since you don't appreciate the original works of fiction these cultures has created. You are so obessed with you blue hair chibi anime girl. And Final FAntasy VII, then why do you even care about these languages?
The video I posted earlier...very beautiful. You called it a pedophile with a kid, you don't seem to care about the video and what it represents. And you don't seem to care about what they are saying either. You are arrogant, you are intelligent but not wise.
Also, we should be arrogant. The English did more to create the modern world than any other nation. Certainly more than Sweden did.
Sure...sweden lost it's great power some 500 years ago. Maybe you are educated in this as well kudistos? Sweden was a superpower under Karl XII. Sweden controlled most of northern Europe. You can say what you want, but being arrogant because you ancestors liked to take colonies is idiotic. You should really think over your replies dude.
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Just so you know it, everyone every single person I know. Look at oh...why do you call yourself that arrogant bastards. GREAT brittain...great? Well, everyone I know that hasn't been englishman or american. Look at america and england as arrogant bastards. If you go down to spain or italy for holiday. It is always the englishmen that are fat and talking REALLY loud. Always...you are very arrogant and in many peoples opinion stupid.
So you're basing your opinion of English people on the ones you see when you're on holiday? And you're justifying your opinion by saying that other people agree with you? Those people who agree with you are probably just jealous xenophobes like you.
Hermodr was a name I picked a long time ago. And I didn't pay attention to the D letter...of course it's hermodr. But hermoor sounds fine, and at least it's orginal.
So having an o instead of an ð is fine? You sure it's not just because you didn't know what a ð was and couldn't recognise it, despite your love of ancient Norse culture? Oh, and BTW, it isn't the same as a d.
As it happens, I'm quite well-versed in Ancient Greek and I know a fair bit of Latin as well. Hell, I've even dabbled in Old Norse, and my Hermóðr thread shows that I know more about it than you do. Sowwy Hermoor, but ancient languages are a strong point of mine. You're not going to win.
You seem to think I care?? I don't get why you would like to learn those languages anyway. Since you don't appreciate the original works of fiction these cultures has created. You are so obessed with you blue hair chibi anime girl. And Final FAntasy VII, then why do you even care about these languages?
So you're saying that if I like anime I can't like Greek literature? That's typical Hermoor logic ;D
As it happens, I quite enjoy the works of Homer, and also Greek theatre, especially Sophocles and Aristophanes.
Also, we should be arrogant. The English did more to create the modern world than any other nation. Certainly more than Sweden did.
Sure...sweden lost it's great power some 500 years ago. Maybe you are educated in this as well kudistos? Sweden was a superpower under Karl XII. Sweden controlled most of northern Europe. You can say what you want, but being arrogant because you ancestors liked to take colonies is idiotic. You should really think over your replies dude.
Ooh, so Sweden is the best country ever because it used to rule over some of the smallest countries in Europe? lol
And yes, I did know that. Unlike you, my knowledge of foreign countries isn't entirely based on stereotypes.
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Hermoor, shut up and stay banned. You are a child who, after having gained a bit of knowledge, assumes he is above the dull masses. Little do you seem to realize how much catching up you have yet to do before you are ready to play with the big boys. Please, if you're going to try to act smart, try at least reading up on facts first instead of assuming you know sh*t just because something sounds viking-related. You seem to reason that if anything at any point was related to vikings, it's your cultural property and anyone else using it are thieves? Well good job, since in your example both ælf and ræd are both Old Germanic in origin, from where they were ended up in both Old English and Old Norse. It's not like the Norse had much original thought about anything at all; hell, most of the mythology is just modified from Germanic myths (for example, Odin originated there and moved into both Norse and Old English religions). I won't dignify your ideas about "mythological references = culture rape" with an answer; I hesitate even reading anything you write for fear of catching the stupid. You're an embarrassment to Swedes everywhere -- so much for our image as an intellectual people!
Ban reinstated. Hopefully this huge exercise of "feed the troll" can now come to a close.
Jumping back to the topic, I doubt anyone else was thinking that someone chose the word "Midgar Zolom" just because it "sounds cooler to dumb yanks". As has been mentioned, the original localization team probably had very little resources for (or interest in) researching cultural references, were probably dumbstruck by the massive amounts of strange katakana, and in the end just chose something randomly. What I was talking about earlier was about replacing cultural references that made no sense to foreign audiences (like Moguri), but Norse mythology is well-established in the Western world (it is Western culture), so there's no reason not to preserve the reference.
I'm starting to think it's impossible to even discuss this issue, because I see way too many sensible, well-informed and balanced views slammed as or met by extremism. I'll calmly reiterate my views here, and I'll be preaching to the choir for most of our members, but clearly it needs to be pointed out anyway since people on both sides seem to have a knack for intentionally misinterpreting their opponents. I'm writing this as a means to establish some common ground, so try to read it to see how much you're able to agree with instead of looking for things to disagree with.
- FF7 contains a myriad of concepts and references from a wide range of religions and cultures. Building upon existing ideas instead of inventing everything yourself is a cornerstone of not only all literature, but of all civilizations. Referencing existing stories adds familiarity and depth to a new story without having to explain yourself, much like the concept of using idioms. (I wouldn't want to read any story that invents everything from scratch; in fact, I would assume it worse for the effort, and be surprised if it was even readable at all)
- Localization is a very difficult task, of which translation is but one piece of the puzzle. Languages and cultures do not match 1:1, so clearly some hard choices need to be made where you have to prioritize what's most important to convey. Sometimes this can mean it's warranted to change even names and other seemingly "constant" terms, if it means the overall feeling is better preserved. (I stand by my personal opinion that Schala and Janus were good examples of this)
- Seifer's goal is to do translation with minimal localization. Realizing this difference is important, as is realizing when other people already do as well.
- The fact that FF7's translation contained mistakes does not invalidate all of it, nor does it invalidate the basic approach to localization.
- Regardless of being originally correct or not, canon does matter. Buster swords, spoony bards, sons of submariners, when a term "sticks" then that will be what triggers nostalgia later on, not a "corrected" translation. Thus when doing away with canon, you will need to be very clear about it, and quite frankly be prepared for a lot of criticism. (It's like trying to claim Jesus had short hair)
I'm going to go out on a limb and guess that most of the criticism that Seifer's project receives is not so much because of the changes they make, but because of the attitude with which it is presented; that there is one true translation and that they're the ones doing it, and if you prefer a different translation, then you're wrong (and possibly stupid). Also, claims like "your hands are tied" and "you are only following the Japanese original" make you sound less like a competent translator and more like a self-proclaimed prophet doing the work of God. In other words, the kind of fanaticism you sometimes accuse your critics of.
My advice? Just be clear about what you're doing, and don't involve other people if you don't want their opinions (this includes advertising your work!). You're well within your right to your take on how the translation should be done, but when you're going around portraying your translation choices as absolute truths you can't really throw a fit when other people beg to differ! You're never going to get everyone to agree with a translation (it's not an exact science), so accept that and move on. Acting self-important will impress no one.
Also, let Luksy do your public talking. :)
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* FF7 contains a myriad of concepts and references from a wide range of religions and cultures. Building upon existing ideas instead of inventing everything yourself is a cornerstone of not only all literature, but of all civilizations. Referencing existing stories adds familiarity and depth to a new story without having to explain yourself, much like the concept of using idioms. (I wouldn't want to read any story that invents everything from scratch; in fact, I would assume it worse for the effort, and be surprised if it was even readable at all)
And no one is arguing with that so far so good....
Localization is a very difficult task, of which translation is but one piece of the puzzle. Languages and cultures do not match 1:1, so clearly some hard choices need to be made where you have to prioritize what's most important to convey. Sometimes this can mean it's warranted to change even names and other seemingly "constant" terms, if it means the overall feeling is better preserved. (I stand by my personal opinion that Schala and Janus were good examples of this)
Well first I have asked that you read the document and I don't think you have so far? But in any case, there is a distinction between dialogue and non dialogue. The reason FF7 has a lot of english sounding names is because they were taken from english words, and thus no localisation was needed. The so called localisation that has been done has not been very good. As Luksy stated FF English is hardly the Great Model of consistency. Phoenix Down doesn't sound like anything compared to Phoenix Tail, and I really can't see why anyone would want the former.
Seifer's goal is to do translation with minimal localization. Realizing this difference is important, as is realizing when other people already do as well.
It isn't so much that I want to do as little as possible, it is imho
a. That not much needs to be done because 95% of these things are based on cultures/mythologies including our own and if we preserve one, we should preserve others.
b. The choices they originally made were often worse than the actual references (such as Spring Gun clip), so I still don't understand why these changes get a hostile reception when on the whole even the changes we have made often sound better.
c. Most people would not realise what Ramu is, What Typhon is, what half of these enemy names are even in the original translation...without researching. I simply cannot see how this is any different to what we have had with a vast majority of things.
d. I don't think a lot of these actually need any localisation...
e. The japanese gamers look at VII and see the same thing we do, tons of different cultures and languages mixed in using katakana. So I don't see why they should put up with it and we feel the need for special treatment?
* Regardless of being originally correct or not, canon does matter. Buster swords, spoony bards, sons of submariners, when a term "sticks" then that will be what triggers nostalgia later on, not a "corrected" translation. Thus when doing away with canon, you will need to be very clear about it, and quite frankly be prepared for a lot of criticism. (It's like trying to claim Jesus had short hair)
I have clearly stated in the document that canon has been thrown out -and that I consider it a disease that firstly prevents real change, prevents accuracy and as Luksy elluded to, causes severe problems with consistency from game to game. Also there are 2 kinds of canon. The established series canon and FF7 canon. Both to me are irrelevant. First, the Series canon is often there simply because the original translation team made mistakes (not always), and other times they took liberties. Secondly, FF7 canon is based on a pack of mistakes. Mideel means nothing to anyone. I take the point that it may now be original but it was never intended to be and it loses its mythological connection (Midir). If Nibelheim had been called "Fog Town" I think that would have been pathetic, but that would now be FF7 canon. I do not buy any of those arguments because for every good thing canon seemingly does, it introduces 2 problems.
I know full well I am going to get slayed for some of the changes, and as I have stated....I really don't care. If this was forced upon everyone I would possibly create 2 translations but that would just be to appease people as enix do to sell games. Luckily I don't need to do that...and surprisingly a lot of people have welcomed the changes. We all know people have choice here.
I'm going to go out on a limb and guess that most of the criticism that Seifer's project receives is not so much because of the changes they make, but because of the attitude with which it is presented; that there is one true translation and that they're the ones doing it, and if you prefer a different translation, then you're wrong (and possibly stupid). Also, claims like "your hands are tied" and "you are only following the Japanese original" make you sound less like a competent translator and more like a self-proclaimed prophet doing the work of God. In other words, the kind of fanaticism you sometimes accuse your critics of.
Complete hogwash. The reason it has come to me boldly telling it as it is, is because of the illogical criticisms this has recieved, mixed in with a few good posts. I am tired of hearing the same moaning and groaning from a select few and arguments that
a. YOU CAN'T CHANGE THAT it has been in the series since 1988 (yes, but the Japanese created the game series and did not intend it.)
b. YOU CAN'T CHANGE THAT it sounds cool! (yes so do 100 things, but when we start deciding what to keep and what not to, it defeats the purpose of a retranslation that sets out to be as accurate as possible to the original vision. And that isn't fanaticism, it is a fact.)
c. YOU CAN'T CHANGE THAT it could have been made simpler for a native to understand. (So could Ramu, So could Ifrit, so could Niblheim, so could midgar, so could 100 other things....)
To every single response there is an argument and a problem. If I started listening to everyone who had a problem which was based on abolishing canon or of changing things that could possibly sound better (and I mean that as in taking away from the meaning), then I might as well not bother! Because everyone is going to hate at least SOMETHING. Some will hate it more than others. That is a price that is unavoidable.
My advice? Just be clear about what you're doing, and don't involve other people if you don't want their opinions (this includes advertising your work!). You're well within your right to your take on how the translation should be done, but when you're going around portraying your translation choices as absolute truths you can't really throw a fit when other people beg to differ! You're never going to get everyone to agree with a translation (it's not an exact science), so accept that and move on. Acting self-important will impress no one.
I have to disagree that it "isn't an exact science", it certainly is with a majority of the items. Yes there are some that this is not the case with, yes there are some that we even had to take a liberty with, but you cannot generalise this by nitpicking a few that sound dodgy. The alternative is a fan driven mess that was decided on because of fanboyism, bigotry, allegiences to canon or simply as was said earlier "I liked zolom"
Also, let Luksy do your public talking.
Luksy has his own way of dealing with things, as do I. I don't cotton wool what I think because experience has taught me that nobody listens regardless...
I am not advertising this as "the greatest thing ever" or "no one can do better" I said no fan made translation could be better (in an accurate sense) if it was sticking to canon or to fanboyism, because it would simply have to sacrifice these things and as I said before, then the question becomes, "What was the point in retranslating?"
Now, people have a choice to install the mod or go for a more fan driven change, such as Titeguy's. I am not coming into his thread having a pop at what he has done. I respect that I can choose to use it or not...the thing is, others will have to respect my mod. And that really is the final word I have to say on this...I like to take on board peoples comments as long as they are constructive and I will definately be making this project clearer to people as there is certainly some kind of misconception about what we are doing. Finally, Dialogue will not be butchered or literal. It is a different animal with far more leeway.
The ultimate irony and logic against canon is that had my translation (or should I say accurate translation) been used from the beginning, the same people arguing against them would now be the same people telling me "I don't like zolom what on earth!?", "I don't understand why you are changing canon"
It all breaks down....when you think about it.
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Btw...Timusumisu, give me credit for that Red XIII model you little....
I cant say any of the current model has any of your work in it o.o I think i remade the entire thing.
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Just to add, Spanish and Italian seem to use Moguri. So much for canon, unless we are arguing English canon is the correct one when the Japanese, Italian and Spanish say it isn't...
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Jumping back to the topic, I doubt anyone else was thinking that someone chose the word "Midgar Zolom" just because it "sounds cooler to dumb yanks". As has been mentioned, the original localization team probably had very little resources for (or interest in) researching cultural references, were probably dumbstruck by the massive amounts of strange katakana, and in the end just chose something randomly. What I was talking about earlier was about replacing cultural references that made no sense to foreign audiences (like Moguri), but Norse mythology is well-established in the Western world (it is Western culture), so there's no reason not to preserve the reference.
Well Moguri was kept in the Spanish and Italian versions of localized games, but in any case by that logic Chocobo should have been changed to something like Chocoba in English seeing as it's (allegedly) taken from a Japanese snack called Chocoball. I don't think the English translators were aiming to change Moguri to better fit a western audience, surely they would have done the same for many other things? Or more to the point why didn't the Italian translators of FFIX call it "Talpistrello" or something similar?
* Localization is a very difficult task, of which translation is but one piece of the puzzle. Languages and cultures do not match 1:1, so clearly some hard choices need to be made where you have to prioritize what's most important to convey. Sometimes this can mean it's warranted to change even names and other seemingly "constant" terms, if it means the overall feeling is better preserved. (I stand by my personal opinion that Schala and Janus were good examples of this)
As I said before IOHO a lot of the "hard changes" in the original translation (let's call it the OT from now on :) ) seem to be rushed and / or poorly researched, and not changed because they fit the target market better.
* Seifer's goal is to do translation with minimal localization. Realizing this difference is important, as is realizing when other people already do as well.
As far as what we have done so far (mostly names) yes, this is absolutely true. As for the dialogue there is no way we can or even want to make it sound like the Japanese.
* The fact that FF7's translation contained mistakes does not invalidate all of it, nor does it invalidate the basic approach to localization.
Absolutely not, I mentioned this in my previous post; it does however mean that the OT should be pulled apart completely and purged of errors and inconsistencies. As you say below our approach is to ignore what has become canon, but I think our reasons for doing so were clear from the get go.
* Regardless of being originally correct or not, canon does matter. Buster swords, spoony bards, sons of submariners, when a term "sticks" then that will be what triggers nostalgia later on, not a "corrected" translation. Thus when doing away with canon, you will need to be very clear about it, and quite frankly be prepared for a lot of criticism. (It's like trying to claim Jesus had short hair)
What is your opinion on FFT and the PSP remake? Surely you wouldn't argue that the PS1 version had a superior translation because it came first and established "canon"? I haven't met anyone who thinks so (although the PSP "olde speake" is a little OTT at times), why should FFVII not be subject to the same process?
I'm going to go out on a limb and guess that most of the criticism that Seifer's project receives is not so much because of the changes they make, but because of the attitude with which it is presented; that there is one true translation and that they're the ones doing it, and if you prefer a different translation, then you're wrong (and possibly stupid). Also, claims like "your hands are tied" and "you are only following the Japanese original" make you sound less like a competent translator and more like a self-proclaimed prophet doing the work of God. In other words, the kind of fanaticism you sometimes accuse your critics of.
The reasons for following the Japanese as close as possible is we have no contact with the original creators; every decent translation ever made is, I think, done with constant consultation and / or supervision from the original author(s), we don't have this luxury. If Nomura could tell us that a lot of the creature names were thought up under the influence of a particularly bad acid trip we'd be delighted.
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LOL, so true on the last paragraph as well!
I will say lastly on this, and it really is lastly....that if you created a novel and then went to japan and found out all the monster names you made were nothing like it...and 1 character had been made into a stereotype, and they had made a hash of names and decided character names had to change...
I cannot imagine you would be happy...and I cannot see how this is any different.
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Just to add, Spanish and Italian seem to use Moguri. So much for canon, unless we are arguing English canon is the correct one when the Japanese, Italian and Spanish say it isn't...
The Spanish version actually uses Mog and Moguri, I think this is because the word Moguri feels more natural and easier for us to pronounce than Moogle. If there was an attemp to make the words more natural for the localization, Moogle would have sounded quite foreign.
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So, to sum this up for everyone.
This translation is ignoring EVERYTHING past and present, and attempting to translate the game as if the original creators were perfectly fluent and knowledgeable in both Japanese and English.
Also, for continued discussion of this project.. maybe the "haha" thread isn't the best place. Just saying.
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So, to sum this up for everyone.
This translation is ignoring EVERYTHING past and present, and attempting to translate the game as if the original creators were perfectly fluent and knowledgeable in both Japanese and English.
Also, for continued discussion of this project.. maybe the "haha" thread isn't the best place. Just saying.
We're not ignoring everything, and we know that the original creators are certainly not fluent in English, this really isn't a good tl;dr of what we're about, sorry.
Another thread would be nice!
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Please feel free to explain exactly what it is I've missed. Because that is the impression I've been getting.
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So, to sum this up for everyone.
This translation is ignoring EVERYTHING past and present, and attempting to translate the game as if the original creators were perfectly fluent and knowledgeable in both Japanese and English.
Also, for continued discussion of this project.. maybe the "haha" thread isn't the best place. Just saying.
We're not ignoring everything, and we know that the original creators are certainly not fluent in English, this really isn't a good tl;dr of what we're about, sorry.
Another thread would be nice!
If you wish another thread just make one.
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Well we'd need someone to splice out the relevant discussion from this one.
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Nah, just start a new one, and have a very clear initial post explaining what this translation is and is not doing.
EDIT: GRAMMAR IS KICKING MY ASS LATELY
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I think the new thread would belong in General, like the previous translation threads.
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Please feel free to explain exactly what it is I've missed. Because that is the impression I've been getting.
Let's see to sum it up as I see it:
- Translators had limited contact with creators, limited resources and limited time (and at times it seems limited talent) which resulted in
- a dodgy translation, in more ways than one which lead to
- the dodginess being repeated because no one could be bothered to contest it
FFT is a prime example actually, the PSP version shows what can be done in the hands of competent translators (I'm not saying we're competent! That of course will be for you to decide).
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This translation is ignoring EVERYTHING past and present
Simply not true. A lot of the stuff isn't changed AT ALL. And when it comes to dialogue, 80% of the world map dialogue was unaltered. All that is being changed is mistakes, some of which even square have decided to correct in games atter VII.
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That's what I meant, but I think I'll quit discussing this for now. You really should make a new thread.