Author Topic: [FF7PC-98/Steam] New Threat Mod (v2.0.99994)  (Read 4971646 times)

Sega Chief

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Re: [FF7PC-98/Steam] New Threat Mod (v1.4)
« Reply #2975 on: 2016-03-28 10:46:46 »
1. it's fine. 2 UNLINKED materia slots is enough of a penalty, seriously.
2. 3 lasers and he dies. i didnt find the fight overly difficult, but it can go bad really quick with the insane damage dual does
3. jem ring would be nice for all the petrify strawberries you have to deal with when getting off the ship
4. doesnt have to be better, but it's just a pain in the ass to morph for a measly fire fang
5. work glove is already the lowest powered no slots wep. morphing things without it sucks. please dont nerf it too bad. powersoul is not why she's broken. work glove is
6. rapps has seriously bad defense relative to most bosses
7. enemies all hit too god damn hard. it makes most setups extremely subpar when killing them off becomes the best way to deal with overwhelming damage income

1. That's true; it gives an early opportunity to build for defence as well.
2. I was talking about the chocobo in the train tunnels rather than the soldier fought in Nibelheim, but that sounds like a problem too; I'll slap some gravity protection on there.
3. Jem Ring for coming off the cargo ship can be arranged; I'll set it to Jenova Birth's drop or maybe to Mamatolis.
4. If it's a pain in the ass to morph it, then the item given needs to be better; Bombs are naturally difficult to morph because of that self-destruct AI they have. I'll give Grenade something better as well.
5. I was thinking more along the lines of Tifa in general; she's got high damage output with those early multi-hit Limits. Powersoul isn't really an issue that can be tackled without either removing it or adding an element to it that would make it useless for boss fights (but that's really the only place people would bother setting it up for use in the first place). I wasn't aware Work Glove was causing balance problems; I'll take a look at it, but it's a no-slots weapon which prevents using Elemental Materia for a 2x damage boost, so...
6. That's to catch teams that have no Materia going into the fight; if he had high physical defence and the player didn't have enough magic items for the fight (the ones supplied along the way aren't enough on their own) then it could become a grind for gil to buy more of those items. I'll come up with a solution eventually.
7. I'll check enemy damage area-by-area when I've got this patch done; any areas in particular that stood out? Also, what was your level + party going through those areas?

Getting it compatible with Reunion's relocalisation seems to be the big thing, and there's challenges to that but it's not impossible. It's looking though like it'll need to be done the hard way in which case the best thing for that is to wait until both mods are complete before attempting it.

Understood. I agree it would be best to wait until your last version of New Threat. Beacause is huge, and I would imagine it would be a headache making it work constantly every time you update your own mod.

We were trying to find a way to automate it with a tool, but it kept crashing. As a project it'd take a few weeks to do manually, but NT + Reunion is a common question/request so I'll be giving it a go at some point.

Welcome back, Segabro. I have few bugs that hasn't been mentioned so far. :)

I'll just copy/paste from my notepad document that I made, so there will be a few things mentioned already.

Spoiler: show
- Aerith still appearing in kalm, after the temple
-Bloodsicle not immune to death mechanics (Odin, for example), only listing this as the normal icicles are, might be intentional?
- Brass dragon fight did not occur, at all.
- Sephiroth (disc 2) still has a raresteal, despite being a boss.(as did several
bosses after that (storywise)).
- W-item found in midgar once more
- Save point outside Shinra HQ seems a bit bigger than normal.
- Another savepoint on floor 64 has the same issue.
-Invisible walls left behind each of the pathway bosses in the crater.
- The caitsith tank @ Silver match in the Gold saucer, has 2 parts that are unkillable. Looking through Ochu for the enemy stats, it seems that the unkillable pieces has taken (?) -94000 and -104000 damage respectively (at the start of the fight). This means the other fights are impossible to access.
- Tseng still using his red suit (at least the field model does, can't remember if he does in battle).
- Fort condor NPC in City of the ancients does not work.
- Possible bug? Tseng seems kind of odd @ Rocket Town. Spam-reviving his buddies, unless both die close to each in other timewise, and if that's done, he will spam life/revive on himself (I think it was, been a few days)
- Possible bug? Think I saw a white screen kind of thing, in the scene after defeating Pearl weapon. Not sure.


-I forgot to fix that with Aeris; someone mentioned it on a stream but it slipped my mind.
-It's not intended; I'll add Death immunity to the bloodsicle.
-I'll check those steals again; I was going through them all to remove rares from bosses but I must have missed a few.
-I think W-Item is supposed to be available from there now; but I think I then put it on Extra Battle again but forgot to change the Midgar Raid drop. I'd better check that out.
-I think those save points were always slightly bigger to catch the player's eye.
-So it's the fight itself that's bugged, not the script. It was copied over from Grosspanzer so one of the enemy IDs must be off in the AI; I'll get that sorted.
-I'll check the field model + battle model, and correct that AI. Seems I've knocked all the Turks out of whack with that 'revision' I made at the last minute :l
-That's an issue with the 1998 game that's carried over into NT because I used that flevel as the base. Only way to fix it I think is to import over a Steam field and use that instead. Same thing with the last screen before the Bizarro fight.

The rest I've got in the notes; cheers, bud.

Alex Zender

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Re: [FF7PC-98/Steam] New Threat Mod (v1.4)
« Reply #2976 on: 2016-03-28 11:02:12 »
The Phoenix down on aerith ....  ruin so much the plot

selius

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Re: [FF7PC-98/Steam] New Threat Mod (v1.4)
« Reply #2977 on: 2016-03-28 11:10:39 »
5. I was thinking more along the lines of Tifa in general; she's got high damage output with those early multi-hit Limits. Powersoul isn't really an issue that can be tackled without either removing it or adding an element to it that would make it useless for boss fights (but that's really the only place people would bother setting it up for use in the first place). I wasn't aware Work Glove was causing balance problems; I'll take a look at it, but it's a no-slots weapon which prevents using Elemental Materia for a 2x damage boost, so...
7. I'll check enemy damage area-by-area when I've got this patch done; any areas in particular that stood out? Also, what was your level + party going through those areas?


tifa's limits are non-elemental. even if ya add an element to it, chances are her limits are gonna ignore it. work glove is just such an insane damage spike relative to all her other weapons up until disc 2 it's basically your disc 1 nuke.

my levels going through every area matches the level of the mobs in them. i had to run away A LOT to maintain this. the biggest offender i would have to say is starting at nibelheim the damage intake starts getting really stupid. i was running away less to preserve my level and more that the damage the mobs were doing was making most fights not worth it.

and then yin/yang in the basement game over'd me in short order. i dont know what the fuck that thing's deal is. hits a character for 300 yet they die at full health

« Last Edit: 2016-03-28 11:16:17 by selius »

Sega Chief

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Re: [FF7PC-98/Steam] New Threat Mod (v1.4)
« Reply #2978 on: 2016-03-28 11:28:15 »
The Phoenix down on aerith ....  ruin so much the plot

I'm implementing an option to not do that in the future. I was trying to get it in for 1.4's release but there's a lot of field script to work through.

tifa's limits are non-elemental. even if ya add an element to it, chances are her limits are gonna ignore it. work glove is just such an insane damage spike relative to all her other weapons up until disc 2 it's basically your disc 1 nuke.

my levels going through every area matches the level of the mobs in them. i had to run away A LOT to maintain this. the biggest offender i would have to say is starting at nibelheim the damage intake starts getting really stupid. i was running away less to preserve my level and more that the damage the mobs were doing was making most fights not worth it.

and then yin/yang in the basement game over'd me in short order. i dont know what the fern that thing's deal is. hits a character for 300 yet they die at full health

I'll check it out; might be the formula.

As far as character level vs enemy level goes, the EXP given is supposed to push you up past their level fairly quickly. I'll check the damage from there onwards, but it could be a couple of things like ATB setting, lower than expected HP due to high escape rate, team composition, that sort of thing. I'll have a look at yin/yang as well.

aquecoucou

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Re: [FF7PC-98/Steam] New Threat Mod (v1.4)
« Reply #2979 on: 2016-03-28 11:40:04 »
Shinra mansion in Nibelheim is the only area (yet) I had some difficulty with classic mobs. Dorky faces spams too much negative magics. Ghirofelgo is fine. I didn't force fights so I haven't seen any Jersey. Lost number only had one stage unlike in 1.35 which made him easier. Black bats are fine, Ying/Yang deals a lot of damage.

I didn't have much problems with normal encounters anywhere else (I'm currently at the Temple). Even the dragon in Mt. Nibel was fine (not too easy, not impossible. In 1.35 I couldn't beat it the first time I encountered one).

Globally I think normal encounters should have a 20-30% damage boost to match with the new HP/MP curves, maybe slightly less depending on zones.

Edit; I'll mention I run an all-rounder team with Cloud / Yuffie / Red XIII, not using any summon materia, not using any duplicate materia (only one cure, ..) except for "All" materia. These characters have a low VIT/SPR but "high" STR/MAG/DEX and I didn't overlevel since I'm running straight through the game. When I recruited Cid, I replaced Red XIII, Cid being 2 ranks lower I still have no problem with normal encounters. (Having him STR/LCK/SPR)

Edit: It reminds me that at the beginning, Yuffie level 1 limit (Greased Lightning) had a way better damage output that Red XIII (Sled Fang) / Cloud (Cross slash) limits while she had less STR. If I remember correctly she had a 800 damage output while Red & Cloud were around 600.
« Last Edit: 2016-03-28 11:47:27 by aquecoucou »

Miksu

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Re: [FF7PC-98/Steam] New Threat Mod (v1.4)
« Reply #2980 on: 2016-03-28 12:17:43 »
So, the Turks fight is bugged. (Elena and Rude) Is there a workaround for time being until the fix comes out? It's funny to watch that I'm soft locked on berserks while rude heals my characters and Elena, when her's HP gets to low.

Oh and also "Enemy Lure" materia's description says "Reduced" not "Increased", but that's small thing.
« Last Edit: 2016-03-28 12:26:33 by Miksu »

selius

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Re: [FF7PC-98/Steam] New Threat Mod (v1.4)
« Reply #2981 on: 2016-03-28 12:50:38 »
confuse rude so he doesnt turk cure.

easiest way is learning chocobuckle. choco/mog summon also inflicts it at high rate.

get them both to 1200ish hp, then summon choco/mog and use limits

even though the message says chocobo is the only way across the marsh, it is absolutely possible to run across. it's just annoyingly difficult.

Miksu

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Re: [FF7PC-98/Steam] New Threat Mod (v1.4)
« Reply #2982 on: 2016-03-28 13:02:50 »
confuse rude so he doesnt turk cure.

easiest way is learning chocobuckle. choco/mog summon also inflicts it at high rate.

get them both to 1200ish hp, then summon choco/mog and use limits

even though the message says chocobo is the only way across the marsh, it is absolutely possible to run across. it's just annoyingly difficult.

Yeah, I probably should focus Elena down first while Rude is Confused. What I did was that I confused Rude with Choco/Mog and focused him down, but after he "died" he started spamming Turk Heal like no day tomorrow. Thanks. I try that. :)

Edit: Done. It worked. But yeah, once it gets fixed it is a much easier.

Also this mod is great. :) Good job!
« Last Edit: 2016-03-28 14:02:18 by Miksu »

Sega Chief

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Re: [FF7PC-98/Steam] New Threat Mod (v1.4)
« Reply #2983 on: 2016-03-28 13:19:09 »
Shinra mansion in Nibelheim is the only area (yet) I had some difficulty with classic mobs. Dorky faces spams too much negative magics. Ghirofelgo is fine. I didn't force fights so I haven't seen any Jersey. Lost number only had one stage unlike in 1.35 which made him easier. Black bats are fine, Ying/Yang deals a lot of damage.

I didn't have much problems with normal encounters anywhere else (I'm currently at the Temple). Even the dragon in Mt. Nibel was fine (not too easy, not impossible. In 1.35 I couldn't beat it the first time I encountered one).

Globally I think normal encounters should have a 20-30% damage boost to match with the new HP/MP curves, maybe slightly less depending on zones.

Edit; I'll mention I run an all-rounder team with Cloud / Yuffie / Red XIII, not using any summon materia, not using any duplicate materia (only one cure, ..) except for "All" materia. These characters have a low VIT/SPR but "high" STR/MAG/DEX and I didn't overlevel since I'm running straight through the game. When I recruited Cid, I replaced Red XIII, Cid being 2 ranks lower I still have no problem with normal encounters. (Having him STR/LCK/SPR)

Edit: It reminds me that at the beginning, Yuffie level 1 limit (Greased Lightning) had a way better damage output that Red XIII (Sled Fang) / Cloud (Cross slash) limits while she had less STR. If I remember correctly she had a 800 damage output while Red & Cloud were around 600.

I guess it's differences in teams and how much fighting was done. The ranks thing with Cid being behind is a problem though; I'll need to come up with something.

That's all the reported bugs fixed; I'll be putting a patch together now after I've had a think about how to get Cid even with everyone else.

Bukharin377

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Re: [FF7PC-98/Steam] New Threat Mod (v1.4)
« Reply #2984 on: 2016-03-28 13:48:30 »
Surely it would be more effective to just make SP be given out more rarely in the case of defeating an enemy you are a higher enemy on rather than none at all? Otherwise it creates the incentive of doing as little battling as per to get the most SP.

Loving the mod so far! I wouldn't say Tifa is OP maybe it's just she was so terrible in the original haha

Sega Chief

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Re: [FF7PC-98/Steam] New Threat Mod (v1.4)
« Reply #2985 on: 2016-03-28 14:04:12 »
Surely it would be more effective to just make SP be given out more rarely in the case of defeating an enemy you are a higher enemy on rather than none at all? Otherwise it creates the incentive of doing as little battling as per to get the most SP.

Loving the mod so far! I wouldn't say Tifa is OP maybe it's just she was so terrible in the original haha

That's something I was worrying about; but the old system was very static and wasn't really in the player's hands at all. I don't know if avoiding battles results in more SP overall as enemies give disproportionately more EXP as you advance which would fast-track low level teams. Maybe.

deha0002

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Re: [FF7PC-98/Steam] New Threat Mod (v1.4)
« Reply #2986 on: 2016-03-28 14:28:36 »
That's something I was worrying about; but the old system was very static and wasn't really in the player's hands at all. I don't know if avoiding battles results in more SP overall as enemies give disproportionately more EXP as you advance which would fast-track low level teams. Maybe.

I think the static approach is better, since you can really adjust fights around the exact stats. The possibility to "grind" for power is according to me a no no, which is why i liked the idea of rank up in the first place.

selius

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Re: [FF7PC-98/Steam] New Threat Mod (v1.4)
« Reply #2987 on: 2016-03-28 14:30:52 »
doing that is more effort than it's worth.

you'd have to kill off cloud every boss battle and switch your lowest 2 into the group. and it's 100 battles of doing it.

there are assorted low exp battles sprinkled into various places but they tend to be the lowest encountered group

and as for my opinion. i prefer the old method. this way grates into my ocd typicality. i'd rather sp be something gained for going out of your way to do various things rather than a reward handed to you for running away half the time

Mithrain

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Re: [FF7PC-98/Steam] New Threat Mod (v1.4)
« Reply #2988 on: 2016-03-28 14:40:22 »
i'd rather sp be something gained for going out of your way to do various things rather than a reward handed to you for running away half the time

I very much agree with this. KH2 did this quite well, I think. Giving you "level ups" for bossfights/events done.

selius

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Re: [FF7PC-98/Steam] New Threat Mod (v1.4)
« Reply #2989 on: 2016-03-28 15:15:04 »
omg dat reward for no fort condor losses

to stronk

me am win teh gaem n0w

Mithrain

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Re: [FF7PC-98/Steam] New Threat Mod (v1.4)
« Reply #2990 on: 2016-03-28 15:20:17 »
omg dat reward for no fort condor losses

to stronk

me am win teh gaem n0w

Did you actually get something specific, for winning all the fort condor stuff? I just kept getting useless consumeables after the first 5-6 battles.

selius

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Re: [FF7PC-98/Steam] New Threat Mod (v1.4)
« Reply #2991 on: 2016-03-28 15:28:34 »
i got a lot of gil for selling the remedies.

:P

aquecoucou

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Re: [FF7PC-98/Steam] New Threat Mod (v1.4)
« Reply #2992 on: 2016-03-28 15:32:33 »
I might not see the problem correctly but why don't you simply remove the 255 cap ? That would be the easiest solution to have Cid's rank to match with any other character

I'm right before the brass dragon fight, I'll wait for the patch to compare it with the 1.35 one :)

Sega Chief

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Re: [FF7PC-98/Steam] New Threat Mod (v1.4)
« Reply #2993 on: 2016-03-28 16:08:00 »
I think the static approach is better, since you can really adjust fights around the exact stats. The possibility to "grind" for power is according to me a no no, which is why i liked the idea of rank up in the first place.

It's a bit of a grey area as far as grinds go; the idea is that the EXP given should counter the SP gained, with the higher EXP yields of later monsters keeping any extra SP gained by dodging fights early on to a minimum.

omg dat reward for no fort condor losses

to stronk

me am win teh gaem n0w

Try not to waste it on any trivial fights like the final boss.

I might not see the problem correctly but why don't you simply remove the 255 cap ? That would be the easiest solution to have Cid's rank to match with any other character

I'm right before the brass dragon fight, I'll wait for the patch to compare it with the 1.35 one :)

I think I could, but it means using a different set of variables and they might need to be larger ones that occupy two addresses for values higher than 255. Maybe.
« Last Edit: 2016-03-28 16:10:12 by Sega Chief »

Dracozombie

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Re: [FF7PC-98/Steam] New Threat Mod (v1.4)
« Reply #2994 on: 2016-03-28 16:21:34 »
I might prefer the static SP growth too (welcome back, btw!). Getting SP from randoms actually concerned me because I'm always worried that Cloud will inadvertently gain too many levels and prevent my lower level characters from gaining SP. Not to mention that it's too similar to the vanilla method of grinding for strength when NT prioritizes strategy over raw power. It forced me to really think and plan instead of gaining levels to compensate, and it wound up becoming more fun than I thought. Assigning SP at fixed intervals made it feel like a reward for reaching a certain point in the game, not because you killed a bunch of mooks along the way. That's normal for RPGs, and I don't necessarily mind it at all, but after 1.35 did the fixed method, 1.4 seems to make SP gain less special.

Sega Chief

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Re: [FF7PC-98/Steam] New Threat Mod (v1.4)
« Reply #2995 on: 2016-03-28 16:49:54 »
We'll run with it for a bit; if it's generally unpopular I'll go back to the static method but with higher SP gains from event/dialogue decisions + sidequests so that it's still player-dependent. Or we could just eliminate SP altogether and just have ranks be unlocked when certain bosses are eliminated + important character specific events are completed.

Edit: Patches are up for Flevel and Scene, plus updated the Main Installer with the new files. For those using the French, Spanish, or German versions of FF7 Steam remember to rename your flevel.lgp file and lang-## folder before applying the flevel hotfix and scene hotfix. You only need the hotfix patches if you downloaded NT before today.
« Last Edit: 2016-03-28 17:15:22 by Sega Chief »

NeoDraconis

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Re: [FF7PC-98/Steam] New Threat Mod (v1.4)
« Reply #2996 on: 2016-03-28 17:18:43 »
We'll run with it for a bit; if it's generally unpopular I'll go back to the static method but with higher SP gains from event/dialogue decisions + sidequests so that it's still player-dependent. Or we could just eliminate SP altogether and just have ranks be unlocked when certain bosses are eliminated + important character specific events are completed.

Oh I would absolutely love that!

Bukharin377

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Re: [FF7PC-98/Steam] New Threat Mod (v1.4)
« Reply #2997 on: 2016-03-28 18:11:29 »
We'll run with it for a bit; if it's generally unpopular I'll go back to the static method but with higher SP gains from event/dialogue decisions + sidequests so that it's still player-dependent. Or we could just eliminate SP altogether and just have ranks be unlocked when certain bosses are eliminated + important character specific events are completed.

Sounds a bit FFXIII to me, which is never a good thing :o Perhaps the current system is best in the limited options your working with.

eXistenZe

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Re: [FF7PC-98/Steam] New Threat Mod (v1.4)
« Reply #2998 on: 2016-03-28 18:28:19 »
Is there an updated IRO?

Sega Chief

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Re: [FF7PC-98/Steam] New Threat Mod (v1.4)
« Reply #2999 on: 2016-03-28 19:14:55 »
Sounds a bit FFXIII to me, which is never a good thing :o Perhaps the current system is best in the limited options your working with.

I hated the crystarium with a passion; trying to avoid something like that if I can.

Is there an updated IRO?

Damn, I forgot; sorry. I'll upload one separately tomorrow. I've got work in less than two hours.