Project Edge (Jusete's field scenes)

[SoulEvan]

Hi Jusete,

u have forgotten the right door in the frmin scene. Just for the information. It's always a good idea before u begin a remodel to see the different layers with the palmer program. Then, u don't forget something. The little dirty details are mostly there. 

For the people who slicing your scenes it is easier to have the door alone without the rest. The game handle it the same. The doors are single layers.

I noticed the problem in the frcyo scene. I have done it, but it was horrible. My creation is not perfect!

The door has a little edge, that the player can hide himself.

See it here:

https://www.german-syslinux-blog.de/download/Final-Fantasy-VII-HD-Field-Scenes/Field-Problems/frcyo1_DOOR.png


The original layers have cut of the edge.  I tried it too, but it doesn't fit with the rest. Don't know why. So I don't give a ... of it and don't wasted my time to the little detail. I know that Shampignon wanted to slice it. I did it myself to get experience. And I think, he will do it better.

It is also difficult to resize the scene to exact the same dimensions. The resizing isn't the problem, but it must fit with the old layers.  Your frcyo scene has not an integer % value.

Example:

Your mainfiles have the dimensions: 7000x3937px

It's more than 8 times bigger as the original files.

The original files have the dimension: 576x448px.

I used the multiplicand 8 to get 4608x3584px

It is more than 4K resolution. I think, it's big enough. U can make it so big u want, but keep the integer value. U used a multiplicand of ~12,15

Better were a multiplicand  of exactly 12 => 6912x5376px

You do a great job! That are just things i noticed by editing your scenes. Don't know what Shampignon think about it. He had sliced a lot. But the most public scenes, who are available to download have not these mechanics like the barn.  I am very excited about the coming release from Shampignon. I hope he had also headache with the scene Don't take me serious!

[jusete]

I forgot about the right door but I think that door is not in use in game, it's always opened. About the door at the farm, maybe you need more practice xD, it's not as simple as take the same slice from Palmer and cut in the new field. Sometimes you need to cut new things and edit a bit the position of the field to match with the original one. I'll take a closer look and see if I can import it. Thanks for the feedback mate.

[Shampignon]

Hello

We are starting to be a real team, it's good ! Thanks to the new workers !

I've been working on other personnal projects this week so I didn't work much on slicing. I've tested the zz's maps and they are good, good job to Sl1982. I've just seen a little default on zz1, the light effect is cut by a layer, so we have a stairway effect. I decreased the intensity of the light so that it does not reach the edge of this layer. I also changed the order of two layers for a softer effect. I think it's better now :

zz1 : https://drive.google.com/open?id=1QlVwopA9HIPnuKQ_LX0nhduWMQjQLEeT

I also worked on zz6 and I was about to be crazy ! I managed to keep the light of the materia as Jusete done, but I had to keep the original layers of the water effect. You can test it :

zz6 : https://drive.google.com/open?id=1keJX-GAoZu827V9w07AMBGKMHET6D0h3

If someone think he can do better, I'll say good luck !

I"ll work on the farm's screens soon, but as I already did this with the jmp's version, I know it will be a long work...

[sl1982]

I dont suppose that the scenes are similar enough that you can use the one set to slice up the other?

[SoulEvan]

I love the zz6 scene! Nice effects.

The zz1 packet is a little bit to big. Nearly 8K Resolution ? What the hell  . I remember of the beginning who mayo master, anoha and all the others make 2K Resolution Models. But 8K is a bit high. 25 MB for each sliced pic, in whole 100MB for ONE scene. Think about the size. Your HDD must always load the scene, before the game can show u the result. I think, 4K is more than enough. Haven't test your zz1.

Can u all others please add also high-res pictures from the scenes ? I need for each version a picture. I cannot make a picture from the sliced scenes and have not your project files to do this.

[jmp434]

Here I am reworking the smoke, it fits well in the layers, but is a little too fast ^^, I have to relaunch renders during the night because they are very long, so I rework on them tonight

[jusete]

Hello

We are starting to be a real team, it's good ! Thanks to the new workers !

I've been working on other personnal projects this week so I didn't work much on slicing. I've tested the zz's maps and they are good, good job to Sl1982. I've just seen a little default on zz1, the light effect is cut by a layer, so we have a stairway effect. I decreased the intensity of the light so that it does not reach the edge of this layer. I also changed the order of two layers for a softer effect. I think it's better now :

zz1 : https://drive.google.com/open?id=1QlVwopA9HIPnuKQ_LX0nhduWMQjQLEeT

I also worked on zz6 and I was about to be crazy ! I managed to keep the light of the materia as Jusete done, but I had to keep the original layers of the water effect. You can test it :

zz6 : https://drive.google.com/open?id=1keJX-GAoZu827V9w07AMBGKMHET6D0h3

If someone think he can do better, I'll say good luck !

I"ll work on the farm's screens soon, but as I already did this with the jmp's version, I know it will be a long work...

I have tested zz4 and it looks amazing. I know that one is a pain in the ass to import, thank you very much.

[KnifeTheSky77]

Modern nvme ssds can easily load a 100mb scene and 8k monitors are on the market. I'll take the obscene amount of pixels pls

[Kaldarasha]

Well we could make smaller resolution later anytime. Isn't downscaling also a way to reduce noise in a render?

[sl1982]

Yes. Consider it a form of free anti-aliasing

[Covarr]

I don't think it's necessarily unwise to render massive masters. They can always be downscaled for distribution, but that prevents the need to re-render if, in a few years, 8K monitors become the norm or something.

[ff7maniac]

i agree, but we must also think about the person who plays ff7 on pc without having a computer or a gaming monitor etc. I personally do it on pc for improvements models, mods etc but i am a playstation gamer i have the original. i have the same monitor for since years and i will keep it until his death and after i go to pay for a new one. why spend if it works very well. i still buy my refurbished computer and I use it for normal use. it's not all the ff7 players that can be used to spend 2000 $ or more ^^

[Covarr]

ff7maniac, you misunderstood me. I'm saying it's good to make large originals, and then shrink them to distribute them. Ideally people could download the appropriate pack for how big their monitor is.

But it's still gonna be a long time before we have enough renders to be worth worrying about this.

[ff7maniac]

ok sorry i'm not super good in english my mistake ^^

[SoulEvan]

I understand the point of large renderings. The argument from KnifeTheSky77 is a little bit odd.

The whole game has a rendered size of round about 640x480 +-100px at the highest ingame scenes. U can play the game on an 8K TV, but the stretched old scenes looking very very very bad on 8K. 4K is at the moment not the standard. And as a normal desktop monitor, the most users (gamers) still have a normal 1920x1080px resolution. 4K and 8K are not desktop PC resolutions. It's for TV's like u said and maybe the pc nerds!

Why i say that ?

What do u think, how long it takes to recreate all the missing scenes in HD ?

Let me think:
We have 2 modders who create scenes. I don't count the slicers!

If each modder creates 10 scenes in a year, we need 32 years to finish it at the moment.

What do u think, which resolution is in 32 years the standard ?

Where we should draw the limit ? 4K ? 8K ? 16K? 32K?

I haven't said, don't make high-res project renders! I said, keep the ingame renders real and don't overact it.

"My personal thoughts about the HD scenes"

The problem is, all the people who doing mods here at the team avalanche forums doing all their own thing. I see no teamwork here! That's my impression! That is the first really big problem here! We have so much lonely wolfs, who doing their job. I read sometimes from different people: "good teamwork"  and I just wondered. What does they mean ? Creating alone the whole scenes and put sometimes a rendered high-res picture into the thread ? 

Another thing: It's not organized. Moders or artist lose themselves in perfection... Begun scenes will be never finished, because a line of darkness is drawed on the scene. Don't take it serious  I am overacting it! Perfection is not bad, but u will never finish the scenes if u act like that. Who cares the pipe who is 1mm shifted in the scene ? Or too large doors ? I don't believe the user noticed it, if he have not the comparison!

I read before months for the first time the jmp434 thread who searched for new people to help him. My personal experience is, he isn't looking for help. I have personal no problem with jmp434 or anyone else, but how u tell the people the mistakes or something bad creations is horrible. I hope for u, u have not a position in a company, where u teach newcomers. I hope it! Really! It's discourage.

The biggest thing is, that u haven't the sensitiveness. U can criticize what ever u want, but than also explain it and help the newcomers! My impression was, u search only for experienced moders and that's it. Other lonely wolfs!    I have not the experience. I am new to this and i have much to learn! I know it! I am not an idiot. If I nailed it, than why u have created the tutorial ? Masters don't need a tutorial dude! And masters don't fall from the sky.

I feel lost here. I have created the overview page to be a part of a team, to learn something, and yes, I love the game too. But my feeling is, we haven't a team!

All of u doing a great job, but i don't wonder, why u haven't more moders.  That's my personal impression of the forums. U must don't share my opinion, of course.

Greetings.

[KnifeTheSky77]

The point I was making is that these file sizes aren't that prohibitively large given today's tech.

A marginally extra amount of render time _now_ is a small price to pay for having the highest quality source material -- you might as well go all the way and shrink later if you feel like it imo.

[jmp434]

Hello, I will start with a simple question! Apart from developing criticisms what are you trying to do just right? You speak without even looking for evidence to what you tell. If I stopped on the road, it's simply because I work 15 hours a day, the little free time that I have, I devoted it to modeling. I do it for pleasure. This is not my job! So obviously I do several things because I'm doing it for pleasure and not for her to take my head! After thirty rendering without getting to go into the layers of the game it enerves me and I spend something else to free my neurons a little!
Then you say that I did not really want to recruit people .... I have a dozen post on several forums always remain unanswered. So as I said before criticizing, try to really know what it is. Subsequently your comments, are simply a source of demotivation for anyone who reads you because you have never done anything at this level and you talk about this or that while the work you have done on the cuts is not just not good ... So your critics start a little upset ... The last little thing that I have to say is that yes I have to start my first scene with an old computer. Not powerful enough for this job. I changed during and during this change. I lost 3/4 of my work. So yes there is work to complete. The rest of the avalanche team has left all this work because of the obvious lack of people ready to really help. For my part I lack of time and I would miss even more soon being given that my wife must give birth in the days to come .... So yes I have other priority. So it would be nice to try to help rather than criticize all the time. The last scene I produced, I spent only 4 hours of my time. So obviously there are corrections to make.

Yours truly.

[Shunsq]

Hello guys,
I'm also working on fields but for FF8. SoulEvan is disappointed because he hopes to learn how to work as a team on a big project. The graphical modders here are mostly inexperienced in a game or graphical project. We learn as we do. We can't tell when we finish a field because we do as we like, depending on the mood. There is no deadline, no budget, no quality criteria. That is why it is impossible to have a structured process on such a big project as Avalanche. That is the reality.
SoulEvan,sorry but on the team management side  you have to learn by yourself, and not here unfortunately.

About the size of the render, maybe it is not clear for everyone but as you double the size of a render you multiply by almost 4 the time to render. Ex: if it takes 10 min to render a 640x480 scene, it will take  40 min for 1280x960,  and 24h to render 7680x5760(8K).
You say it is to easily reuse them later when the norm is 8k. I think the quality standards in the future will be beyond what we produce today. So don't tire yourself with gigantic render, the quality will be outdated in 5 years.

From my small experience in rendering fields, do small renders (max 2048×2048) with an overall consistency in colors, contrast,shadows. Add some eye catcher details, big enough to be seen on 2048x2048 or even smaller renders.

Post here only small renders , it is very annoying to wait 10s for the picture to show. If the users want 8k scenes tell them to use an image upscaler ( waifu?).

[perico1986]

Let's see...
first congratulations for your baby.
I am a final fantasy fan vii and I want to give thanks for all the effort and work you have done. please do not discuss. sure there are ways you can be a great team. only in a few months you have given us many scenes and those that remain ... take the time you need, I will continue to enter the web daily, thanks

[KnifeTheSky77]

Here is something you guys could do to make things a little more manageable:

1. Make a trello board -- it's free https://trello.com/
2. Have columns for TODO, In-Progress and Completed

This way, you guys won't do the same scenes by accident/have a good grasp of what is already finished... all in one place.

> 24h to render 7680x5760(8K)
I have a machine that could do the final renders pretty quickly...

[SoulEvan]

Sorry about my writing. I didn't know, that only moders are allowed to make suggestions or criticize something. 

So, why i have written it?

jmp434, i wrote u my feelings about my impressions. What do u think, what a newcomer think, if u tell them, he did a very very very bad job at his first try? That i mean! And u still don't get it. It was a really bad job (that's not the point), i know, but it was my first try! The most people had thrown the towel and thought: " Okay, that was really fun, but better i leave it now without a comment and come never back again!" That is the reason why i wrote my impressions about it. You are demotivating new people, they are willed to help.

Have u after my first try looked at a new version from me ? U haven't and it seems, u have not the interests to do that.

U talk permanent of "quality" and "how u do something" and only people who have done whole scenes are allowed to say something or not and such things. That is curious.

A simple question to u:"How have u begun ?"

What are u delivering with your messages ? Only people with experience are welcome. That is your message! Maybe u don't notice it, because u are fall in love by yourself. Remember, i read the most threads and posts in the avalanche forum. I tell u just the things, that i have thought the whole time by reading it.

Maybe u understand it now, or not. Don't know. But the threads, the posts are talking a really clear message to new people who are thinking about to join. And that is why i have written it, that u don't search for new people.

And why i should sugar-code it ? That doesn't change anything. I think, we are all grown. I have noticed your problem with criticism in old threads. All people who make suggestions and don't sugar-code u at first are bad people. U don't believe me ? Read your first posts! I mean, i can still write a sugar-code wall at first, if u feel better then, and then give a suggestion, but on the other side i think, who needs that ?

Maybe u understand it now. I have tried to explain it. The language barrier is another thing we are fighting against. Ok, so on.

Greetings.

[ff7maniac]

please do not start bickering you, we just start having more people for this project -.-

[sithlord48]

Ideally the following would be done:
 - Have a centralized place is used for all source
 - This would include assets used to create scenes.
 - Decide upon 8x or 16x for the scaling and use it for all scenes.
 - Create a todo list as suggested above.

You can use something simple like google drive (like we used to) and then people can access the files, Use the primitive resources to make their scenes quicker, do renders, You know have working flow for the project that will help you attract more help too, Everyone can then work together on the same data set using the same assets so things look consistent thru the game, The artists to focus on art and the people offering to render can also have access this way they can render the scenes marked done.People can also test the fields to be sure the walk meshes are still working correct and weird pockets are discovered or do stuff like this guy is suggesting. http://forums.qhimm.com/index.php?topic=16748.msg259379#msg259379

[ff7maniac]

Did you think to create a poster and posting, with permission in video games store? it could attract people no? or maybe in your city there are video games studios that people would like to give their free time once they go in their house, me in my city there is a ubisoft

[DanTsukasa]

Could I perhaps make a suggestion.

I don't know how people would be best organising themselves, across multiple countries, this works fine for people when they have a full time job doing the thing, but these people are doing it in whatever spare time they can find, so it can't really be too rigid honestly.

With the regular event of stopping a scene whilst waiting for inspiration, or quitting a scene entirely, it might be a good idea to upload the actual scene files, the meshes and cameras somewhere, this way if someone else can continue, someone else can continue.

What makes most of these mods is really texturing, mesh wise its all the same really, but the texturing and lighting is what kicks it up a notch.
Additionally, lighting especially is, one of my personal shortcomings, I'm terrible at it, and I'm a 3D artist by profession, I've worked on many games but I can't light for shit, but if someone else uploads a scene with complete lighting, I can retexture it and try to helpout.

For me its mainly the lighting putting me off, for others it might be lining up the objects, it'll be different for different people, but having a base can really help get things moving I think.

So a shared repository for the actual scenes would be great IMHO.